faith & works
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
but I cannot judge.... because only God can see your heart and if your good works are a reflection of your heart or hair splitting chores.....only He judge
.... but your statement is true. it basically summarised what i had said all along. -
lol... on the surface.. both are speaking the same points. but in details.. it's different.
same form, different essence.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
lol... on the surface.. both are speaking the same points. but in details.. it's different.
same form, different essence.
i agree, which is why i keep saying it's pointless.... at the end of the day, God judges... period. -
Can all of you stop this nonsense. Its getting ridiculous. If u believe in something, u keep it to yourself. U DONT NEED TO RANT HERE CUX NOBODY IS INTERESTED. In another word - just shut it.
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Originally posted by jgho83:
Can all of you stop this nonsense. Its getting ridiculous. If u believe in something, u keep it to yourself. U DONT NEED TO RANT HERE CUX NOBODY IS INTERESTED. In another word - just shut it.
noted.... -
Originally posted by jgho83:
Can all of you stop this nonsense. Its getting ridiculous. If u believe in something, u keep it to yourself. U DONT NEED TO RANT HERE CUX NOBODY IS INTERESTED. In another word - just shut it.
we are interested in what the other person is saying.
this is a christian discussion, you're welcome to come and share, to debate, to make known your thoughts about the subject.
if you're not interested, then it's ok to not get involved also.
it's not as if you're helplessly being spammed with no way to avoid reading it.
firstly, this is but a small link out of the 30 links which displays the latest topics, and a small link out of the 8 at the bottom of the same page.
are you so helpless that you don't have the choice to click the other 29 topics to discuss?
unlike us, who chose to keep up with this topic because it's relevant to us, so we choose to click and read this topic out of the other 29 topics every time
your outburst is even more infantile and un-needed imo.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
unlike us, who chose to keep up with this topic because it's relevant to us, so we choose to click and read this topic out of the other 29 topics every time
don't use the word "us" too loosely...
some topics are good, this one is going round and round and round.....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
don't use the word "us" too loosely...
some topics are good, this one is going round and round and round.....
haha, but it is true that we will automatically click on this topic if there's an update. if you are TOTALLY uninterested in it, u wouldn't hv clicked on it, much less replied and reflect what u deem the faulty logic of the person you're discussing with right?
same with all of us here.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
lol... on the surface.. both are speaking the same points. but in details.. it's different.
same form, different essence.
Yes, I agree with you too.....and the last bible quote Chin Eng quoted is agreeable too.
Basically, we all agree that one is saved by faith and I am sure we all agree that only true faith in Christ can saved. The only way to prove that true faith is by our works.
Only still did not understand how faith (unproven to be true in Christ with no works yet) can saves and one can claimed to be "saved" by that. And the quote did not answer that...maybe faulty logic.....
But at least I know even in your salvation theory, works is mentioned.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
haha, but it is true that we will automatically click on this topic if there's an update. if you are TOTALLY uninterested in it, u wouldn't hv clicked on it, much less replied and reflect what u deem the faulty logic of the person you're discussing with right?
same with all of us here.
ha..ha...ha....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
.... but your statement is true. it basically summarised what i had said all along.Yes, it is true because at the last judgement, God looks at your works that will prove your faith.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Yes, I agree with you too.....and the last bible quote Chin Eng quoted is agreeable too.
Basically, we all agree that one is saved by faith and I am sure we all agree that only true faith in Christ can saved. The only way to prove that true faith is by our works.
Only still did not understand how faith (unproven to be true in Christ with no works yet) can saves and one can claimed to be "saved" by that. And the quote did not answer that...maybe faulty logic.....
But at least I know even in your salvation theory, works is mentioned.
works is mentioned as a by-product. not a pre-requisite.
i was just musing about love. if you will read 1 corinthians 13
1 Corinthians 13
Love
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
like chin eng and i said. faith in Christ leads to salvation, which leads to love for God and love for others, which leads to good works.
without the love of God, you won't be able to produce good works (which is still filthy rags to God). so what if u can speak in tongues of men and angels, or prophesy, or huge faith, if you don't have love, it is worthless, it is nothing, it is hollow. without love, all good works are hollow shells of pretentiousness. and love only comes from salvation, if you have salvation already, from true faith.
it's just my own musing, correct me if you feel that i've mused incorrectly
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
works is mentioned as a by-product. not a pre-requisite.
i was just musing about love. if you will read 1 corinthians 13
1 Corinthians 13
Love
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
like chin eng and i said. faith in Christ leads to salvation, which leads to love for God and love for others, which leads to good works.
without the love of God, you won't be able to produce good works (which is still filthy rags to God). so what if u can speak in tongues of men and angels, or prophesy, or huge faith, if you don't have love, it is worthless, it is nothing, it is hollow. without love, all good works are hollow shells of pretentiousness. and love only comes from salvation, if you have salvation already, from true faith.
it's just my own musing, correct me if you feel that i've mused incorrectly
No where do I see anything that explains why faith (unproven yet with works) can saves.
In fact, it echoes my feelings that if there is no love (shown by works), one can claim anything they want.....that they are saved whatever....it means nothing. As I mentioned earlier, to do good work is to love God - not hair splitting moments.
Anyway, that's your contention which is fine with me. I am just wondering and still wondering why faith (unproven yet) can saves when we all agreed before that only true faith in Christ (that is proven by works) can saves....Perhaps, I'll never get any answer...
For me, I believed that I am saved in hope (by the grace of God) and have started the process of salvation by God when I profess my faith. In the end on judgement day, I will be judged based on my works as Jesus spelt out in the last judgement and complete my salvation.
I strive to live my Christian life loving God and in the end, I hoped to be able to say : "I have fought the good fight to the end; I have run the race to the finish; I have kept the faith;" as Paul said in 2Timothy 4:7. Kept my faith with my love for God (good works) to show and proved. It's not lips service or unproven faith ....... that saves me but my true faith in Christ.
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Let me try to explain how 'faith' can save without works, yet 'works' is generally present when real 'faith' is present, with a simple story found in the good book:From many other stories, it is recorded that Jesus heals the faithful.
After these things, there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And at Jerusalem is a pool at the Sheep Gate which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches.
In these was a great multitude of the infirm lying, blind ones, lame ones, withered ones, awaiting the stirring of the water.
For an angel at a certain time descended in the pool and agitated the water. Then the one first entering after the agitation of the water became well, whatever disease he was held by.
But a certain man was there, being in infirmity thirty eight years. Seeing him lying, and knowing that he had already spent much time, Jesus said to him,
"Do you desire to become well?"
The infirm one answered Him,
"Lord, I do not have a man, that when the water is agitated he may throw me into the pool; but while I am coming, another goes down before me."
Jesus said to him,
"Rise up, Take up your cot and walk!"
And instantly the man became well, and took up his cot and walked. And it was a sabbath that day.
(John 5:1-9)
In the above example, the Jews were expected to "show their faith" by being the first the reach the pool after it was stirred by the angel.
For years, the sick man was crippled, bedridden, and unable to do the very works that would be able to cure him (i.e. going down into the water when it is stirred).
On that fateful day, Christ himself asked if he had the desire to be healed, all he wanted to hear (and knowing God is all-knowing, he probably asked aloud so that others around might hear of the man's profession of faith in becoming healed of his infirmities, a method that was again exemplified in Mark 2:5-12)
When the man, who was physically unable to perform the works required of him had shown faith, Christ healed him just the same.
The God we worship listen not to mere words or looks merely at actions, He searches the hearts of men to seperate the truly faithful and those who only proclaims, either through words or actions, to be so.
This is similar to how faithful prayer is described in the following, when words and action fail us, but we are in one mind with God:
In certain ways we are weak, but the Spirit is here to help us. For example, when we don't know what to pray for, the Spirit prays for us in ways that cannot be put into words.
(Romans 8:26)
Hope this explanation helps.
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Originally posted by ChangeCanHappen:
Let me try to explain how 'faith' can save without works, yet 'works' is generally present when real 'faith' is present, with a simple story found in the good book:From many other stories, it is recorded that Jesus heals the faithful.
In the above example, the Jews were expected to "show their faith" by being the first the reach the pool after it was stirred by the angel.
For years, the sick man was crippled, bedridden, and unable to do the very works that would be able to cure him (i.e. going down into the water when it is stirred).
On that fateful day, Christ himself asked if he had the desire to be healed, all he wanted to hear (and knowing God is all-knowing, he probably asked aloud so that others around might hear of the man's profession of faith in becoming healed of his infirmities, a method that was again exemplified in Mark 2:5-12)
When the man, who was physically unable to perform the works required of him had shown faith, Christ healed him just the same.
The God we worship listen not to mere words or looks merely at actions, He searches the hearts of men to seperate the truly faithful and those who only proclaims, either through words or actions, to be so.
This is similar to how faithful prayer is described in the following, when words and action fail us, but we are in one mind with God:
Hope this explanation helps.
We all agreed that it is faith that saves.....and that true faith is proven by works. So, how can faith that is unproven without works saves? This story did not tell us....
You said: "When the man who was physically unable to perform the works required of him had shown faith, Christ healed him just the same."
It just shows that God is great and just. And that he judge them by their hearts....that they have desire to do good works but yet because of their situation, they can't.
This actually supports what I said earlier that there is no need to measure and quantify good works and that doing good works should be engraved in one's heart . I agree with you that God can see our heart....
"He searches the hearts of men to seperate the truly faithful and those who only proclaims, either through words or actions, to be so."
- what I under-lined and high-lighted seems to contradict what Jesus said His true disciple should be. i.e. one who listen to His words and act on it Mt 7:21-27. Mere words means just proclaims...and anyone can do so. The difference are those who went on and act on His words or doing His will.....and such actions (works) proved their faith. And only people with such faith will be saved.
In any case, I thank you for your explanations.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
We all agreed that it is faith that saves.....and that true faith is proven by works. So, how can faith that is unproven without works saves? This story did not tell us....
You said: "When the man who was physically unable to perform the works required of him had shown faith, Christ healed him just the same."
It just shows that God is great and just. And that he judge them by their hearts....that they have desire to do good works but yet because of their situation, they can't.
This actually supports what I said earlier that there is no need to measure and quantify good works and that doing good works should be engraved in one's heart . I agree with you that God can see our heart....
"He searches the hearts of men to seperate the truly faithful and those who only proclaims, either through words or actions, to be so."
- what I under-lined and high-lighted seems to contradict what Jesus said His true disciple should be. i.e. one who listen to His words and act on it Mt 7:21-27. Mere words means just proclaims...and anyone can do so. The difference are those who went on and act on His words or doing His will.....and such actions (works) proved their faith. And only people with such faith will be saved.
In any case, I thank you for your explanations.
true faith saves, whether proven by works or not.
if a person dies immediately after he believed, does it makes his faith untrue because he has no works to show?
in the end, works are really for show to men, works benefit the people around us, that's why we should do them.
it has nothing to do with salvation. true faith, brings forth love, which brings forth desire to do good, and in doing good works, people around us benefit, and God uses us to bless others through good works.
God sees the heart, not the works, and He doesn't practice double standards. there is only one standard, His standard, and there is only one way, He is the way.
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Yes, my example was mainly brought up to illustrate that it is faith which saves, not the work itself.
However, as James has written, with real faith, so long the person is physically capable of it, will always bring about works. If a person says he believes, but deliberately refrains from taking good actions that he is well capable of doing, then his faith is not real. As James have written in Chapter 2 Verse 19,
You surely believe there is only one God. That's fine. Even demons believe this, and it makes them shake with fear.
The faith expected of Christians is not merely the belief that God exist, or that Christ saves. It has to also come with true obedience to His Word. The difference between demons and Christians is just that; one merely knows God, the other actually follows him.
dumbdumb! further emphasizes with his example: where a person is not capable of action, it is not held against him. What God hold against Man is when they do not have the right heart - for whilst one may be incapable of actions due to disability or other reasons, no one can claim to be incapable of making the decision to love God and our fellowmen. The choice is always theirs to make.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
true faith saves, whether proven by works or not.
if a person dies immediately after he believed, does it makes his faith untrue because he has no works to show?
in the end, works are really for show to men, works benefit the people around us, that's why we should do them.
it has nothing to do with salvation. true faith, brings forth love, which brings forth desire to do good, and in doing good works, people around us benefit, and God uses us to bless others through good works.
God sees the heart, not the works, and He doesn't practice double standards. there is only one standard, His standard, and there is only one way, He is the way.
Basically, I agree with you except on proven or not part....
when a person dies immediately after professing faith does not means His faith is unproven.....and we all agreed that even before he professes his faith, God is already working in him...and thus, his good works in the past are not flithy rags....but good works inspired by the holy spirit. And God knows if the heart is true....
I agree that God bless others through our good works and that is why all Christians should make doing good works part of their life (and engraved in their hearts).
Unproven faith (yet) may be true but as you said will lead to good works....and those that don't are not true faith.
So, how can one be saved based on professing only? It means both true and untrue faith saves......
And if it is proven untrue later, then one is not saved.....
meaning, you really know if you are saved or not later and not when professing....but when good work is done or not done to prove your faith.
The best time to judge is perhaps at the last judgement.....which is why we says it is a process and we all agreed that only true faith saved.
Yes, God see the hearts and the works proved that we have true faith in Him and that we are striving to be His true disciple by listening to His words and acting on it. Or simply put, we lived our life as a true Christian according to His Words.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Basically, I agree with you except on proven or not part....
when a person dies immediately after professing faith does not means His faith is unproven.....and we all agreed that even before he professes his faith, God is already working in him...and thus, his good works in the past are not flithy rags....but good works inspired by the holy spirit. And God knows if the heart is true....
I agree that God bless others through our good works and that is why all Christians should make doing good works part of their life (and engraved in their hearts).
Unproven faith (yet) may be true but as you said will lead to good works....and those that don't are not true faith.
So, how can one be saved based on professing only? It means both true and untrue faith saves......
And if it is proven untrue later, then one is not saved.....
meaning, you really know if you are saved or not later and not when professing....but when good work is done or not done to prove your faith.
The best time to judge is perhaps at the last judgement.....which is why we says it is a process and we all agreed that only true faith saved.
Yes, God see the hearts and the works proved that we have true faith in Him and that we are striving to be His true disciple by listening to His words and acting on it. Or simply put, we lived our life as a true Christian according to His Words.
simply illustrated.
if a person goes to church, hears the message of the good news, realises how corrupted and sinful he is, he realises he is helpless, he ask God for mercy for he is a helpless sinner, he is justified.
a person marries a christian, and for the partner's sake, becomes a christian. he doesn't feel he has any faults at all, he just simply become a christian to suit his partner. thus he doesn't feel the need to know God more, and doesn't receive God's love, and without God's love, he can't love God, and without love, he produces no fruits or good works.
see? both professes, but at the moment of professing, true faith, or false faith is already established (kinda)
it doesn't mean though, the person who professes falsely, is out of God's will though. who knows, maybe one day he will be touched by God, and that leads him to know God more, and it becomes true faith, and that gives him God's love, and with that love, he produces good works and fruits automatically.
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Originally posted by ChangeCanHappen:
The faith expected of Christians is not merely the belief that God exist, or that Christ saves. It has to also come with true obedience to His Word. The difference between demons and Christians is just that; one merely knows God, the other actually follows him.
dumbdumb! further emphasizes with his example: where a person is not capable of action, it is not held against him. What God hold against Man is when they do not have the right heart - for whilst one may be incapable of actions due to disability or other reasons, no one can claim to be incapable of making the decision to love God and our fellowmen. The choice is always theirs to make.
I agree that it is one who actually follows Jesus that counts and that would means not just listening to His Words but also to act on them.....i.e. take action and do the works....otherwise, how can you say you have faith?
And we are not talking about 1 special case but in general. And I do agree with you.
In the end, faith (unproven with works yet) still does not seems to be able to saves....
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
simply illustrated.
if a person goes to church, hears the message of the good news, realises how corrupted and sinful he is, he realises he is helpless, he ask God for mercy for he is a helpless sinner, he is justified.
a person marries a christian, and for the partner's sake, becomes a christian. he doesn't feel he has any faults at all, he just simply become a christian to suit his partner. thus he doesn't feel the need to know God more, and doesn't receive God's love, and without God's love, he can't love God, and without love, he produces no fruits or good works.
see? both professes, but at the moment of professing, true faith, or false faith is already established (kinda)
it doesn't mean though, the person who professes falsely, is out of God's will though. who knows, maybe one day he will be touched by God, and that leads him to know God more, and it becomes true faith, and that gives him God's love, and with that love, he produces good works and fruits automatically.
Exactly, both professes faith and you can already see that the second one is not saved ......thus professing faith does not saved.
Yet, he could be saved if there is a change of heart and that he is truely touched by God and if he listen to His Words and act on it later....
For the first guy, we still cannot says that his faith is true....his feelings may change down the line......and then he become unsaved?
But if he truely desires God, he will learn about Him, hear His Words and act on it, then his faith will be proven to be not a spur of moment kind of feeling but real and true faith in God. Then, we can says that he will be saved....
So to determine if one is saved or not at time of professing seems to create saved and unsaved situations..... and uncertainty so as to speak.
Does that make sense to you ?
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Dumbdumb, what you just quoted seems real and can happen in real life isn't it?
Let's look at the same situations fom my point of view....
The first guy truely wants to accept God and professes his faith....
The second guy profess the faith for the sake of getting married.....
Both are saved in hope......and whoever goes on and live their lifes as true Christians (one that has faith and good works) will be in the group of the sheep on last judgement day. It can be either one of them, both or none.....The choice is theirs to make....and they know if they are living right by their works....do they really love God and are they doing God's will from their heart?
So the whole process is avaible to them (FREE) and it is up to them to co-operate with Christ so that they can be saved.
If one has the intention of really trusting in Christ, saving today will make no difference in their lifes.....and they really need to be saved on their last day.....so that they can "fight the good fight to the end; run the race to the finish; and says I have kept the faith"
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just wondering.... if God is the judge....
the proving of the faith (with works) is for whom to see? who is to say that because a guy did some real nice good work today, is deemed to have proven faith....
if a faith is unproven, it also for whom to validate?
is there a body of theologians and bible scholars to conduct this validation process?
who are we to say who has proven faith and who does not have proven faith...
if at the end of the day God is the judge.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
actually, i do not recall that i said that the catholic church doctrines are corrupt.... if i had done so, please point that out to me. your first statement basically summarised what i have been trying to say... so you agree with me that errant (corrupt) clergymen teaches corrupt doctrine to the faithful?...
Yes I fully agree with you that there have been and there will continue to be corrupt clergymen who teach corrupted doctrine to the faithful or set very bad examples by leading corrupt lives. However, I am also happy to note that you agree with me that the official doctrines of the Catholic Church are not corrupt. At least we have these cleared up
.Originally posted by Chin Eng:...change... built upon.... to me these are just politically correct statement.... it happens to all denominations... in an attempt to show that things are unshakable... however it goes to show that there is a transition, evolution, better understand, new revelation... hence change.
exactly.... these traditionalist catholics may not be correct.... perhaps neither are you nor smarty boy.... and it goes to show that even with the realms of the catholic church, things are not as universal as thought....
Universality of the Catholic Church
Interesting comment you made about the lack of universality in the Catholic Church. It is certainly true that worship practices, disciplines etc would differ within the Catholic Church. There would certainly be different segments of the Church having different focus and views about how the Church should conduct its activities etc. I would be concerned if every Catholic held exactly the same views; it wouldn't be human
.However, when it comes to official dogma and doctrines, there is unity and universality in the Catholic Church. Regardless of which country or city the Catholic Church is in, they all believe in and profess the same dogma and doctrines handed down from the apostles. The only way this can happen is because they all submit to the teaching authority of the magisterium (pope + bishops in communion with him). It is no surprise that the word 'Catholic' is derived from the greek word meaning 'Universal'.
Of course this does not necessarily mean that every Catholic is well versed in his faith so there is no need to start pointing out why different Catholics may have different ideas about doctrines and dogma. Some folks might also call themselves Catholic Christians but reject half of what the Catholic Church teaches because the teachings are not 'convenient' to their lifestyles.
As I understand it, the protestant world is very different. To varying degrees, every local church has its own doctrines based on the beliefs and 'revelations' of its local pastor. In my view, this lack of doctrinal universality is the result of the protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura (bible alone) which allows every pastor (every protestant christian in fact) to interpret the bible all on his own without having to submit to any authority.
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Originally posted by Omnia:
Yes I fully agree with you that there have been and there will continue to be corrupt clergymen who teach corrupted doctrine to the faithful or set very bad examples by leading corrupt lives. However, I am also happy to note that you agree with me that the official doctrines of the Catholic Church are not corrupt. At least we have these cleared up
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actually i also didn't say (as far as i am aware) that i agree with you that the official doctrines of the catholic church are NOT corrupt.... i don't think i am in that position to make that statement.... whether the catholic church's (or any other church for that matter) doctrine is corrupted or not, i will leave that to God.i am glad that we agree on the point that corrupt clergyman do corrupt doctrine.
i am not in the habit of attacking of other churches' doctrinal stand even if such stand disagrees with my personal conviction. Note too, that i have not used a single anti-catholic link in any of my replies.