Since I am here, and Unker ChinEng had complained about OT in the other thread being diverted to this topic. I help start this for Unker... Just a thought, as I read about this interesting article on this very topic.
Its a part of a series of reflections on St Paul's teaching by Pope Benedict The Doctrine of Justification:
The Apostle's Teaching on Faith and Works [url]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html[/url]
and he concluded by saying" Therefore let us allow ourselves to be touched by reconciliation, which God has given us in Christ, by God's "foolish" love for us; nothing and no one can ever separate us from his love (cf. Rm 8: 39). We live in this certainty. It is this certainty that gives us the strength to live concretely the faith that works in love."
In other words, It is faith in Christ that we received justification, and it is this true faith in Christ that will help us produce fruits in our lives that will bring glory to God. Its not faith in Christ + our works.. but that of "justification" through faith which produces the fruit of the Spirit.
can edit a bit or not??? quite difficult to read....
Originally posted by vince69:Since I am here, and Unker ChinEng had complained about OT in the other thread being diverted to this topic. I help start this for Unker... Just a thought, as I read about this interesting article on this very topic.
Its a part of a series of reflections on St Paul's teaching by Pope Benedict The Doctrine of Justification:
The Apostle's Teaching on Faith and Works [url]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html[/url]
and he concluded by saying" Therefore let us allow ourselves to be touched by reconciliation, which God has given us in Christ, by God's "foolish" love for us; nothing and no one can ever separate us from his love (cf. Rm 8: 39). We live in this certainty. It is this certainty that gives us the strength to live concretely the faith that works in love."
In other words, It is faith in Christ that we received justification, and it is this true faith in Christ that will help us produce fruits in our lives that will bring glory to God. Its not faith in Christ + our works.. but that of "justification" through faith which produces the fruit of the Spirit.
What's your point here? Can clarify?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:What's your point here? Can clarify?
Since this topic was brought up in another thread and Off Topic there. As stated in the begining of my 1st entry here, its for Unker ChinEng to continue his discussion on this topic here.
By the way, have you read the full article from the link? If not, I will recommend that you take sometime to read this article. I personally find this teaching of Pope Benedict on this subject very insightful and benefical.
God Bless.
Originally posted by vince69:
Since this topic was brought up in another thread and Off Topic there. As stated in the begining of my 1st entry here, its for Unker ChinEng to continue his discussion on this topic here.By the way, have you read the full article from the link? If not, I will recommend that you take sometime to read this article. I personally find this teaching of Pope Benedict on this subject very insightful and benefical.
God Bless.
unker vince.... i did not say i want to continue my discussion leh... if i wanted to i would have started it myself....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:unker vince.... i did not say i want to continue my discussion leh... if i wanted to i would have started it myself....
you forgot I insane one meh... and don't call me unker... you too senior to me liao...
Originally posted by vince69:
you forgot I insane one meh... and don't call me unker... you too senior to me liao...
only by a couple of years.... but i think i look younger than you....
.... and this thread is going OOT again... ha ha...
Originally posted by vince69:
By the way, have you read the full article from the link? If not, I will recommend that you take sometime to read this article. I personally find this teaching of Pope Benedict on this subject very insightful and benefical.
God Bless.
Yes, I can read the article and I agree with you that the teaching of the Pope is very insightful and beneficial.
But you conclusion seems to be different from his.
The Pope explained that St Paul tells us not our deeds, but rather faith renders us "just" because "man is unable to "justify" himself with his own actions, but can only truly become "just" before God because God confers his "justice" upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son".
"faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith"
Faith alone without fruits (works) is dead. Faith with works is true faith because it is by my works that I proved my faith.
"Justified through the gift of faith in Christ, we are called to live in the love of Christ for neighbour, because it is on this criterion that we shall be judged at the end of our lives."
i gave my sit to a child today....
and inform the lady ahead of me that the teller at the end was callling out for her....
and helped my colleague to lift some heavy stuff....
also help another colleague with his powerpoint presentation....
i think i am good for the day....
.... splitting hairs.....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i gave my sit to a child today....
and inform the lady ahead of me that the teller at the end was callling out for her....
and helped my colleague to lift some heavy stuff....
also help another colleague with his powerpoint presentation....
i think i am good for the day....
.... splitting hairs.....
Maybe this will help ligthen the load :
"The Methodist Church must view the perplexing times and problems we face today in the light of the life and teaching of Jesus. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours and to seek justice for all. Silence and passivity in the face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ."
no need to split hairs and no need to get over-excited. If it helps lighten the load, good, if it does not, it does not...sorry!
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Maybe this will help ligthen the load :
"The Methodist Church must view the perplexing times and problems we face today in the light of the life and teaching of Jesus. Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours and to seek justice for all. Silence and passivity in the face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ."
no need to split hairs and no need to get over-excited. If it helps lighten the load, good, if it does not, it does not...sorry!
again... no where does this Methodist church quotation state anything about linking good works with faith....
again... DOING good works is NOT THE ISSUE.
so quoting this paragraph does NOT ADD anything to the discussion.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:again... no where does this Methodist church quotation state anything about linking good works with faith....
again... DOING good works is NOT THE ISSUE.
so quoting this paragraph does NOT ADD anything to the discussion.
"Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours and to seek justice for all. Silence and passivity in the face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ."
Is this not about doing good works? Not doing good works is to Deny Christ and yet still got faith in Christ ah? OIC.............yes, it does not add anything to this discussion. It's oxymoronic.
Sorry that it did not ligthen your load of doing good works......
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:"Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours and to seek justice for all. Silence and passivity in the face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ."
Is this not about doing good works? Not doing good works is to Deny Christ and yet still got faith in Christ ah? OIC.............yes, it does not add anything to this discussion. It's oxymoronic.
Sorry that it did not ligthen your load of doing good works......
so how does that work....
if i remain silence and passive, today, in a particular incident, in face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ.. and lose my salvation?
and tomorrow i act to fight against injustice and exploitation, i get my salvation again?
the whole premise of works and faith lies with what practical value does work have, if it cannot be measured and quantified. We cannot always be doing good work all the time, and we cannot always be doing evil all time. I may have a bad day and decided NOT to stand up for the pregnant lady.... so how? die lah!
the statement that you quoted, to me, is a broadbase definition on the need to do good works.
since your so cleverly quoted from the Methodist teachings, how about going to the basic....
Article IX - Of the Justification of Man
We are accounted righteous before God only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by faith, only, is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort.
Article X - Of Good Works
Although good works, which are the fruits of faith, and follow after justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and spring out of a true and lively faith, insomuch that by them a lively faith may be as evidently known as a tree is discerned by its fruit.
... at the end of the day... and as i'd before, it does not matter whether what you believe is right, or i am right.... good works still get done....
so the sum of all these is:
smarty boy, who believes that good works is part of salvation, does good works, dies ....
chin eng, who does not believe that good works is part of salvation, does good works anyway because it is a commandment of God, dies ....
.... on the assumption that smarty boy is correct....
no issue what.... both will still go to heaven
because the consciousness of KNOWING doing good works is part of salvation, is not part of the equation.
on the flip side.
smarty boy, who believes that good works is part of salvation, does good works, dies ....
chin eng, who does not believe that good works is part of salvation, does good works anyway because it is a commandment of God, diesven....
.... on the assumption that chin eng is correct....
still no issue what.... both will still go to heaven
smarty boy is doing good works all the time even though his assumption is wrong, goes to heaven
chin eng is also doing good works and will still go to heaven....
.... so this entire discussion is rather pointless...
Originally posted by Chin Eng:so the sum of all these is:
smarty boy, who believes that good works is part of salvation, does good works, dies ....
chin eng, who does not believe that good works is part of salvation, does good works anyway because it is a commandment of God, dies ....
.... on the assumption that smarty boy is correct....
no issue what.... both will still go to heaven
because the consciousness of KNOWING doing good works is part of salvation, is not part of the equation.
on the flip side.
smarty boy, who believes that good works is part of salvation, does good works, dies ....
chin eng, who does not believe that good works is part of salvation, does good works anyway because it is a commandment of God, diesven....
.... on the assumption that chin eng is correct....
still no issue what.... both will still go to heaven
smarty boy is doing good works all the time even though his assumption is wrong, goes to heaven
chin eng is also doing good works and will still go to heaven....
.... so this entire discussion is rather pointless...
What about the third scenario of a Christian who does not bear fruit, who does not keep Christ's commandment to love one another, who does not abide in Christ till the end ? In other words, a Christian who amongst other things, fails to do good works and who falls into sin ?
Will such a person still go to heaven ?
Originally posted by Omnia:What about the third scenario of a Christian who does not bear fruit, who does not keep Christ's commandment to love one another, who does not abide in Christ till the end ? In other words, a Christian who amongst other things, fails to do good works and who falls into sin ?
Will such a person still go to heaven ?
To this, I am not sure... this will be an answer only God can answer.... Will have to find out when I meet Him.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Yes, I can read the article and I agree with you that the teaching of the Pope is very insightful and beneficial.
But you conclusion seems to be different from his.
The Pope explained that St Paul tells us not our deeds, but rather faith renders us "just" because "man is unable to "justify" himself with his own actions, but can only truly become "just" before God because God confers his "justice" upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son".
"faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith"
Faith alone without fruits (works) is dead. Faith with works is true faith because it is by my works that I proved my faith.
"Justified through the gift of faith in Christ, we are called to live in the love of Christ for neighbour, because it is on this criterion that we shall be judged at the end of our lives."
What the Pope is saying is this. Its True Faith in Christ that render us just, not our works.True faith is faith that leads to works, not faith with works. If your faith is true (not just lip service), your faith will eventually bear fruits. If you faith is not bearing fruit, then he will question if the faith you profess is it just "lip service"?
we need to be clear on the difference, "True faith as evident by its fruits" is not the same as saying "faith+works). Its similar as saying, you know a tree by the fruits it bears.
and How do we know if its True faith or not? by the fruits that it bears.
and How does God know if its true faith or not? He sees the heart.
God bless
ps: I forgot to mention earlier that this is part of a series of teaching by the Pope, you may find it benefical to read through the entire series. very good teaching.
Originally posted by Omnia:What about the third scenario of a Christian who does not bear fruit, who does not keep Christ's commandment to love one another, who does not abide in Christ till the end ? In other words, a Christian who amongst other things, fails to do good works and who falls into sin ?
Will such a person still go to heaven ?
i can only give a hypothetical answer..... and continues to maintain the stand that perhaps we are splitting too many hairs....
on your question.... the issue of what this "fruit" is, can be a contentious issue.....
taking into the assumption that the "fruit" of the spirit (Gal 5:22,23) is "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance"... is it really conceivable that anyone, in any given amount of time, do not display any of these at all.... or do we mean that all the nine attributes need to be present at the same time? or does God accept "work-in-progress" Christians....
what if, again hypothetically speaking, one of us in sgforums got so worked up and start to flame each other over our theological stand, therefore, perhaps, losing, the longsuffering and temperance aspect of this "fruit"..?
to some, this fruit means bringing in new believers.... so what happens to Christians who had never, directly, bring others to Christ?
theoritically, it is all so simple - bear fruit and you are fine and dandy.... but practically speaking.... how does that all work out?
can you, omnia, for example, claim to have the fruit of the spirit? seriously, the only person i can think of having such attributes to almost a perfect level was mother teresa.
also, is it conceivable that anyone goes through his entire sad life not doing at any one time, any of the attribute?
.... if our conclusion now is...as vince said ....only God can judge.... that what the heck are we talking about???
Originally posted by vince69:What the Pope is saying is this. Its True Faith in Christ that render us just, not our works.True faith is faith that leads to works, not faith with works. If your faith is true (not just lip service), your faith will eventually bear fruits. If you faith is not bearing fruit, then he will question if the faith you profess is it just "lip service"?
we need to be clear on the difference, "True faith as evident by its fruits" is not the same as saying "faith+works). Its similar as saying, you know a tree by the fruits it bears.
and How do we know if its True faith or not? by the fruits that it bears.
and How does God know if its true faith or not? He sees the heart.
God bless
ps: I forgot to mention earlier that this is part of a series of teaching by the Pope, you may find it benefical to read through the entire series. very good teaching.
Yes, basically, I agree with you but only on understanding of what is true faith (not lip service). The Pope do state clearly that "A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith"
As you rightly pointed out, we know if the faith is true by the fruits it bears. In this case, the Pope did state that this fruit is about charity (which is of course love for your neighbour).
And again as you rightly pointed out, how does God know? He sees our heart, one that is changed and doing charity (good works) from the heart....not one that goes to the net and post I did this....that.....and that today until hair splitting...........
Also, towards the end, he pointed out the citeria which Jesus has told us in the Last Judgement in MT which again is about love your neighbour and charity.
God bless...
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
so how does that work....if i remain silence and passive, today, in a particular incident, in face of need, injustice and exploitation is to deny Christ.. and lose my salvation?
and tomorrow i act to fight against injustice and exploitation, i get my salvation again?
the whole premise of works and faith lies with what practical value does work have, if it cannot be measured and quantified. We cannot always be doing good work all the time, and we cannot always be doing evil all time. I may have a bad day and decided NOT to stand up for the pregnant lady.... so how? die lah!
the statement that you quoted, to me, is a broadbase definition on the need to do good works.
since your so cleverly quoted from the Methodist teachings, how about going to the basic....
Article IX - Of the Justification of Man
We are accounted righteous before God only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by faith, only, is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort.Article X - Of Good Works
Although good works, which are the fruits of faith, and follow after justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and spring out of a true and lively faith, insomuch that by them a lively faith may be as evidently known as a tree is discerned by its fruit.... at the end of the day... and as i'd before, it does not matter whether what you believe is right, or i am right.... good works still get done....
Relax lah....don't get so excited.....not here to argue with you... only trying to lighten your load.....
I said many times in the other thread that we do good works because it's a commandement of Jesus....seems you forgot.
About this gaining salvation and loosing tomorrow etc... the confusion is caused by you so cannot help you lah.
Don't like to quote bible verse but I think the last time, I mentioned to dumbdumb about what Paul said about this......so no issue for me.
Good works and justification already clearly explained between me and Vince with the help of the Pope (hee...hee...hee...) so no need to go further. If you want to understand, you will, if you refused, no amount of explanation will.
Basically, I agree that we are justified by faith but only true faith. How do you know if faith is true? By the fruits? What fruits? It seems like the points you raised point towards good works which is a commandment of Jesus.
If only true faith saves, then salvation must be either faith + good works OR faith leading to good works and NOT faith alone. And no one is saved until the faith has works to show (that it is true).
As I mentioned before, you missed the point of doing good works, it is about doing it from your heart. Your heart that wants to follow Jesus and do what He tells us......not counting and keeping track....God looks at your heart and not your spreadsheet.
If you did not miss the point, the deeds you did yesterday will not split your hairs and you do not need to come here and complaint about the need to do good works. It is what your heart wanted you to do.
The scenario you painted of us dying together (choi!).....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i can only give a hypothetical answer..... and continues to maintain the stand that perhaps we are splitting too many hairs....
on your question.... the issue of what this "fruit" is, can be a contentious issue.....
taking into the assumption that the "fruit" of the spirit (Gal 5:22,23) is "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance"... is it really conceivable that anyone, in any given amount of time, do not display any of these at all.... or do we mean that all the nine attributes need to be present at the same time? or does God accept "work-in-progress" Christians....
what if, again hypothetically speaking, one of us in sgforums got so worked up and start to flame each other over our theological stand, therefore, perhaps, losing, the longsuffering and temperance aspect of this "fruit"..?
to some, this fruit means bringing in new believers.... so what happens to Christians who had never, directly, bring others to Christ?
theoritically, it is all so simple - bear fruit and you are fine and dandy.... but practically speaking.... how does that all work out?
can you, omnia, for example, claim to have the fruit of the spirit? seriously, the only person i can think of having such attributes to almost a perfect level was mother teresa.
also, is it conceivable that anyone goes through his entire sad life not doing at any one time, any of the attribute?
.... if our conclusion now is...as vince said ....only God can judge.... that what the heck are we talking about???
Jesus did mentioned what we are judged on in last judgement in MT so no need to be contentious right? Ok, if you want to, it's ok.
According to Paul, he said every commandment can be substitued with Love and that he is preaching about faith, hope and love and nothing is greater than love.
No one need to claim he has fruit of the spirit or anything. Every one should just do his best to live out their Christian life.....that is to love your neighbour (doing good works).
As we all agreed, God is the final judge and He will look at our hearts and He knows what is in there....
We cannot be perfect but we should not use that as an excuse and stop trying....and praying to God to help us overcome our short-coming.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Relax lah....don't get so excited.....not here to argue with you... only trying to lighten your load.....
I said many times in the other thread that we do good works because it's a commandement of Jesus....seems you forgot.
About this gaining salvation and loosing tomorrow etc... the confusion is caused by you so cannot help you lah.
Don't like to quote bible verse but I think the last time, I mentioned to dumbdumb about what Paul said about this......so no issue for me.
Good works and justification already clearly explained between me and Vince with the help of the Pope (hee...hee...hee...) so no need to go further. If you want to understand, you will, if you refused, no amount of explanation will.
Basically, I agree that we are justified by faith but only true faith. How do you know if faith is true? By the fruits? What fruits? It seems like the points you raised point towards good works which is a commandment of Jesus.
If only true faith saves, then salvation must be either faith + good works OR faith leading to good works and NOT faith alone. And no one is saved until the faith has works to show (that it is true).
As I mentioned before, you missed the point of doing good works, it is about doing it from your heart. Your heart that wants to follow Jesus and do what He tells us......not counting and keeping track....God looks at your heart and not your spreadsheet.
If you did not miss the point, the deeds you did yesterday will not split your hairs and you do not need to come here and complaint about the need to do good works. It is what your heart wanted you to do.
The scenario you painted of us dying together (choi!).....
what's there to choi about??? didn't know catholics are so pantang.....
you will die i will die.... we can die on the same day, but which part of that is dying "together"???? don't be daft.
i think we are all going round in circles..... we all agree that good works is important -period!
you keep saying that i missed the point... okay lah, if you say so....
hmm... it seems that i needed the understanding and i needed the teaching and i need to lighten my load..... and it seems that you don't... so much for the fruit of the spirit on humility.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:what's there to choi about??? didn't know catholics are so pantang.....
you will die i will die.... we can die on the same day, but which part of that is dying "together"???? don't be daft.
i think we are all going round in circles..... we all agree that good works is important -period!
you keep saying that i missed the point... okay lah, if you say so....
hmm... it seems that i needed the understanding and i needed the teaching and i need to lighten my load..... and it seems that you don't... so much for the fruit of the spirit on humility.
Choi means pantang meh?
No need to get upset what......really trying to lighten your load by telling you that it's ok to do good works as not doing is deny Christ.....and how can deny Christ still got faith in Him?
Good works is not just important, it's a must in salvation and to prove one's true faith.
Article X - Of Good Works
Although
good works, which are the
fruits of faith, and follow after justification,
cannot put away our
sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment;
yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and spring
out of a TRUE and LIVELY FAITH, insomuch that by them a LIVELY FAITH may be as EVIDENTLY KNOWN as a tree is discerned BY ITS FRUIT.
Unless you are saying any faith will save or just lips service - say only can liao.
Or maybe it's ok to deviate from above.......
... and as i'd maintained so many times....
since we already do good works (and such good works cannot be counted or measured) and we do such good works without hidden agenda....
it does not matter whether one believe that faith + good works or faith leading to good works in order to gain salvation because since we all do good works one time or another, or all the time... and that only God knows the heart.....
any further argument is counterproductive and, to me, is extremely egotistical.
i content that my belief is personal and do not wish to impose it to anyone.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Choi means pantang meh?
No need to get upset what......really trying to lighten your load by telling you that it's ok to do good works as not doing is deny Christ.....and how can deny Christ still got faith in Him?
Good works is not just important, it's a must in salvation and to prove one's true faith.
Article X - Of Good Works
Although good works, which are the fruits of faith, and follow after justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and spring out of a TRUE and LIVELY FAITH, insomuch that by them a LIVELY FAITH may be as EVIDENTLY KNOWN as a tree is discerned BY ITS FRUIT.Unless you are saying any faith will save or just lips service - say only can liao.
Or maybe it's ok to deviate from above.......
i have already said that it is extremely contentious to continue this discussion. i will back down, because i think it is pointless and does nothing whatsoever to those reading this thread other that to show up our differences (which in reality isn't even really a big deal.