Originally posted by Chin Eng:
I think this is probably the first instance where "Catholic" and "independent" is linked together.....By the same tune that Omnia has stated previously, I guess I can assume that he endorses that concept.
Yes, Catholic Church is ONE universal independent church (depending on what and how you define independent) and not dependent on any other denominations just like CHC.
Only difference is that they have 2 locations and we have about 30 because our congreagation are bigger.
So, if you have a different definitions of independent, then tell us.....
First it was compatring apples to oranges...now playing with definitions........what else will come...let's see.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:so "dependent" church?
got independent church.... but is there dependent church???? if there is, than that church is dependent on God...
got fast food restaurant... but is there slow food restaurant???? if there is, than it's probably fine dining....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Yes, Catholic Church is ONE universal independent church (depending on what and how you define independent) and not dependent on any other denominations just like CHC.
Only difference is that they have 2 locations and we have about 30 because our congreagation are bigger.
So, if you have a different definitions of independent, then tell us.....
First it was compatring apples to oranges...now playing with definitions........what else will come...let's see.
well, here you are defining "independent" as a church no dependent on other denominations....
yet, this other post you are saying that the mega-churches' definition is something else...
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:You seems to be confused and lost.........what "mega churches" claimed about being independent is really about being not associated with any denominations.
so it seems that there are two different definitions.... it goes back to who is defining what.....
and if any catholics who is offended by CHC's claim that they are the largest independent church in singapore should write a letter to them to ask them to cease and desist from making such a claim seeing that the catholic church already has that claim cast in stone. perhaps your archbishop should have a talk with Kong Hee or sue them for misrepresentation... especially when you are so adament that the Catholic church is an independent church.
otherwise, all these claims in sgforums for what?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:well, here you are defining "independent" as a church no dependent on other denominations....
yet, this other post you are saying that the mega-churches' definition is something else...
so it seems that there are two different definitions.... it goes back to who is defining what.....
and if any catholics who is offended by CHC's claim that they are the largest independent church in singapore should write a letter to them to ask them to cease and desist from making such a claim seeing that the catholic church already has that claim cast in stone. perhaps your archbishop should have a talk with Kong Hee or sue them for misrepresentation... especially when you are so adament that the Catholic church is an independent church.
otherwise, all these claims in sgforums for what?
Seems like you really old liao.....and forget that I also said that non-denominations seems like a denominatyion by itself isn't it?
So where got 2 definitions?
No, I am not offended by CHC claims.....and the issue is about you saying that Omnia is compating apples with oranges when it was you who got your facts wrong. That's it. Simple.
or you can go in an edit the wiki claim (which I suspect was written by a member) on CHC....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Harvest_Church#cite_note-CHCOurChurch-2
City Harvest Church or CHC is a megachurch located in Singapore. It bases its values on Charismatic and Pentecostal teachings, with doctrinal emphasis on the Great Commandment, the Great Commission and the Cultural Mandate. It has been described by Charisma as "one of the largest congregations in Asia."It is the largest independent church in Singapore, with a combined total of over 25,000 members. The church's highest record attendance has gone beyond 57,000 during City Harvest's Christmas services in 2008.
The church is a full member of the National Council of Churches, Evangelical Fellowship of Singapore and Festival of Praise Fellowship. It has multiple, multi-lingual weekend services at two locations, its church building in Jurong West and the Singapore Expo. In Singapore, it operates various internal ministries and five affiliate organisations and companies. Overseas, CHC serves as the spiritual resource centre for related churches based in Asia, and has active relationships with churches and bible schools in Asia, conducting joint conferences and seminars with them annually.
otherwise, the knowledge of the independent catholic church having a larger congregation than CHC does not go very far.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Seems like you really old liao.....and forget that I also said that non-denominations seems like a denominatyion by itself isn't it?
So where got 2 definitions?
No, I am not offended by CHC claims.....and the issue is about you saying that Omnia is compating apples with oranges when it was you who got your facts wrong. That's it. Simple.
well, people who want to look different from other people always end up with people looking like themselves....
and Omnia cannot defend himself?
you might want to type slower, or proof read before posting.....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:or you can go in an edit the wiki claim (which I suspect was written by a member) on CHC....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Harvest_Church#cite_note-CHCOurChurch-2
otherwise, the knowledge of the independent catholic church having a larger congregation than CHC does not go very far.
if you wish to, no one is stopping you.......
and whatever they say cannot change the facts that many others such as the methodist has a larger congragation than them....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:well, people who want to look different from other people always end up with people looking like themselves....
and Omnia cannot defend himself?
you might want to type slower, or proof read before posting.....
No, I am not defending Omnia.....I am just correcting your factual mistakes. That's all.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:No, I am not defending Omnia.....I am just correcting your factual mistakes. That's all.
like i am correcting your spelling all the time.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:if you wish to, no one is stopping you.......
and whatever they say cannot change the facts that many others such as the methodist has a larger congragation than them....
oh i see, it seems that you are not interested to change that perception that the largest independent church is the catholic church......
personally, i don't really care what they claim... seems so far that the people who are not happy with that claim is omnia and yourself.... so if you don't want to do anything about it, why should I?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
like i am correcting your spelling all the time.
ya.......I type quite fast and so got typo error.......and you? Factual error!
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
oh i see, it seems that you are not interested to change that perception that the largest independent church is the catholic church......personally, i don't really care what they claim... seems so far that the people who are not happy with that claim is omnia and yourself.... so if you don't want to do anything about it, why should I?
What perception?
All these started because you claimed Omnia compare apples to oranges when he just want to state that chc is not the face of christianity and that they are not the biggest church in Singapore (and you don't really care?)
And you put your stand in because of your own factual errors...........
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:What perception?
All these started because you claimed Omnia compare apples to oranges when he just want to state that chc is not the face of christianity and that they are not the biggest church in Singapore (and you don't really care?)
And you put your stand in because of your own factual errors...........
the issue that CHC is NOT the face of Christianity is already settled, nothing to talk here.
well, the actual claim is NOT that CHC is the biggest (largest?) church in Singapore. The actual claims is that CHC has the biggest INDEPENDENT church in Singapore.... the fact is CHC has made that claim. this is NOT MY CLAIM. So which part of this did I got wrong?
of course the issue is how we define the word "independent" and if you wish to insist that the catholic church is independent, than CHC is wrong!
even after all the declaration that CHC may be wrong in that claim, and that perhaps you are right, you don't wish to address that on a larger scale that a puny forum?
so how does that address the "misrepresentation" on a grander scale? if you are not going to correct this on this grander scale.... as it seems that the catholic church is being slighted and you as a good catholic who is so proud of the fact that the catholic church is the largest "independent" church is NOT DOING ANYTHING TO correct the mispresesentation?
there seem to be other "independent" catholic churches....
http://pages.swcp.com/antioch1/indepcath.pdf
Seems that within the Catholic churches, there are also denominations some of which may not even fall under the control or the goverment of the Church at Rome.
Also, the practices are not as universal as first thought.....
It is good to see such progress....
There is only one Catholic Church. However there are a fair number of Catholic "denominations", of which the Roman Catholic Church is only one, of course overwhelmingly, the worlds largest. The independent Catholic movement".
Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch is an independent Catholic denomination of it's own. We are NOT under either the control or the government of the Church at Rome commonly called the Roman Catholic Church. We are a worldwide church offering an alternative Catholic worship experience to all humanity.
Combined with other independent Catholic denominations we are referred to as part of the "independent Catholic movement".
Seems that the practices are not as common as previously thought...
Each independent Catholic denomination establishes their own Code of Canon Law, and their own theological stand on these issues. As previously stated the various denominations move from very conservative to very liberal.
You would have to check with each church group to find out what their stance is on these matters.
The Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch ordains women to its priesthood, priests can be married, and celibacy is optional.
We encourage people to make their own informed decisions about birth control, abortion, etc.
So, if such catholic churches are considered to be independent catholic churches, who are they independent of?
And are those churches who fall under the jurisdiction of Rome also called independent churches?
How do we differentiate one "independent" catholic church from another "independent" catholic church?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:technically that's comparing apples to oranges....
City Harvest is ONE PHYSICAL CHURCH..... The Catholic organisation is divided into many physical churches.... To put it into perspective, the Methodist church membership is larger than City Harvest, but we do not have ONE single church that is larger than them.
If the issue is: the number of Catholics in Singapore vs the number of non-Catholic Christians then it is a better comparison.
I think you are being too selective in your definition of "church".
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:going by your logic, we really should compare city harvest jurong or city harvest singapore expo (2 different physical locations) not city harvest (as a combination of jurong and expo). and do anyone know how many people they have in each ?
Omnia is simply comparing number of Catholics in Singapore with number of City Harvest believers.....nothing wrong.
If we compare methodist to city harvest, city harvest will be smaller and thus cannot claimed to be the biggest church.
what is your definition of "church"?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:a church can mean an individual building, or it can mean an umbrella organisation...
my mistake on the number of church locations CHC has... you are right, there are two.
would it offend you (or Omnia) if the claim is: CHC is the largest independent church in Singapore?
let it be stated that my dislike of CHC goes way way beyond my personal opinion of the Catholic church...
already settled liao.....why you keep going on?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:the issue that CHC is NOT the face of Christianity is already settled, nothing to talk here.
well, the actual claim is NOT that CHC is the biggest (largest?) church in Singapore. The actual claims is that CHC has the biggest INDEPENDENT church in Singapore.... the fact is CHC has made that claim. this is NOT MY CLAIM. So which part of this did I got wrong?
of course the issue is how we define the word "independent" and if you wish to insist that the catholic church is independent, than CHC is wrong!
even after all the declaration that CHC may be wrong in that claim, and that perhaps you are right, you don't wish to address that on a larger scale that a puny forum?
so how does that address the "misrepresentation" on a grander scale? if you are not going to correct this on this grander scale.... as it seems that the catholic church is being slighted and you as a good catholic who is so proud of the fact that the catholic church is the largest "independent" church is NOT DOING ANYTHING TO correct the mispresesentation?
Before all these, you must answer below.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:hmmm, maybe because of your obvious hypocritical and oxymoronic views in other threads?
methodist church is also independent church - independent from the Anglicans, Presbytherian, Catholics etc.....and the same goes for all other denominations....
and non-denominations seems like a denomination by itself isn't it?
Answer above, get a "correct and accepted" definitions and published in established dictionary such as Oxford etc...and we will deal with the slighted issues...
and by the way, the Catholic Church are under attacks from "pro-Catholics" hyprocrite like.....everyday but that will not change the facts about the Catholic Churches. So why get so worked up....relax.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:there seem to be other "independent" catholic churches....
http://pages.swcp.com/antioch1/indepcath.pdf
Seems that within the Catholic churches, there are also denominations some of which may not even fall under the control or the goverment of the Church at Rome.
Also, the practices are not as universal as first thought.....
It is good to see such progress....
Seems that the practices are not as common as previously thought...
So, if such catholic churches are considered to be independent catholic churches, who are they independent of?
And are those churches who fall under the jurisdiction of Rome also called independent churches?
How do we differentiate one "independent" catholic church from another "independent" catholic church?
Catholic Churches are ONE unviversal Church united in Christ. Simple. Why get so worked up because you read some anti-Catholic materials?
By the way, you OT liao leh....this thread about "Does God Exist?" and not about Catholic Churches leh.....so how to be moderator?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Catholic Churches are ONE unviversal Church united in Christ. Simple. Why get so worked up because you read some anti-Catholic materials?
i am not sure who's getting worked up....
it has been said that typing fast and not checking....++ multiple quick post is a sign of stress.... ++ multiple quick edits..... not sure if it is true.....
what anti-Catholic material???? you are denying that the article i'd quoted is from a Catholic church????
or are you just denying that there are Catholics with a different view from yours?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i am not sure who's getting worked up....
it has been said that typing fast and not checking....++ multiple quick post is a sign of stress.... not sure if it is true.....
what anti-Catholic material???? you are denying that the article i'd quoted is from a Catholic church????
OT liao lah.....there are so many "Catholic websites" around that are anti-Catholics as if you don't know.......
hmm, maybe you also need to check what is really a Catholic Church.......
first not universal in doctrines, then got more charismatic and less charismatic and now this......you really proved to me that you are the pro-Catholic guy around....and one that knows us pretty well too.
Typing fast and not checking is a bad habit and not stress....happen in my work too....this is a forum and not an english school leh.....
Mutiple factual errors is the scary issues.....
Anyway, I know you are just trying to divert attention from the fact that the argument is due to your factual error......
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:OT liao lah.....there are so many "Catholic websites" around that are anti-Catholics as if you don't know.......
hmm, maybe you also need to check what is really a Catholic Church.......
ok, by your definition, catholic websites are those that are singing the same song.... and anything else with a different take are anti-catholic website.... even though such websites will vehemently defend their rights to be catholic....
ok... got it.
so there are no such thing as a bad catholic.... all catholics are good catholics, any "catholics" doing bad things are not catholics.... ok got it again.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
ok, by your definition, catholic websites are those that are singing the same song.... and anything else with a different take are anti-catholic website.... even though such websites will vehemently defend their rights to be catholic....ok... got it.
so there are no such thing as a bad catholic.... all catholics are good catholics, any "catholics" doing bad things are not catholics.... ok got it again.
hmm, did I say that? Or are you making this out yourself?
Or maybe the sign of some stressed out guy trying to hide his tracks....of factual errors?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:hmm, did I say that? Or are you making this out yourself?
Or maybe the sign of some stressed out guy trying to hide his tracks....of factual errors?
is this an anti-catholic site: http://pages.swcp.com/antioch1/indepcath.pdf?