Originally posted by Omnia:CHC can claim whatever it wants. Since you appear to endorse their claim about being the largest independent church in Singapore (by repeating the statement in your post), why don't you tell us what 'independent church' means ?
I have no idea what it means which is why I did not use the term in my alternate definition of CHC, and which is why I can't agree with your statement until you provide more clarity of what you mean or understand by that term.
hmmm, just because one statement is repeated by one person, the person is deemed to have ENDORSED that claim? quite ludicrious is isn't it....? on the same note, when another person quotes from the Methodist website, I have never insisted that those views were being "endorsed".
it is strange, however, that you are now saying, that I "appear to endorse their claim" while when I had already said that I dislike them very much.... and that smarty boy seem to think it is obvious that i dislike other churches.... so what is it? i endorse their claim yet dislike them?
independent church - non-denomination church, or a church that does not affiliate itself with other established denomination..... good enough for you? I am sure you could have found that out if you had wanted to.
Herzog_Zwei,
You are never listening, always have the one-sided traffic mentally. Haiz...
I said "Whether you believe in God or not, most importantly is to be a kind person with a clear conscience. Then after death, you are not afraid of anything."
You are always so negative. Go & live ur life as a good person then you will start to find peace. Don't claim anything first until you try it.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:hmmm, just because one statement is repeated by one person, the person is deemed to have ENDORSED that claim? quite ludicrious is isn't it....? on the same note, when another person quotes from the Methodist website, I have never insisted that those views were being "endorsed".
it is strange, however, that you are now saying, that I "appear to endorse their claim" while when I had already said that I dislike them very much.... and that smarty boy seem to think it is obvious that i dislike other churches.... so what is it? i endorse their claim yet dislike them?
independent church - non-denomination church, or a church that does not affiliate itself with other established denomination..... good enough for you? I am sure you could have found that out if you had wanted to.
Someone might hate the PAP party but still agree or endorse the notion that it is the largest political party in Singapore. Similarly, just because you dislike CHC doesn't mean that you would or should automatically disagree with the statement that CHC is the largest independent church in Singapore, right ?
In discussing the size of churches in Singapore, you had suggested, "would it offend you (or Omnia) if the claim is: CHC is the largest independent church in Singapore?".
My conclusion in reading this is that it would be odd for you to make this suggestion if you did not agree with or endorse the statement (separate from your personal disposition towards CHC). I use 'agree' and 'endorse' interchangeably in this context and this might have been the cause of the problem. I should have used the less contentious word - 'agree'. For that, I apologise. But for my benefit, do you or do you not agree then with the statement that you highlighted - that CHC is the largest independent church in Singapore ?
Going by your understanding of 'independent church', I would also see all 30+ Catholic parishes here (forming the Archdiocese of Singapore) as a single independent non-denominational church.
How come this topic still exists?
When a person comes to post in this sub forum, he should have already established that God exists. This is a forum for Christians to meet and discuss, which was the intention when sillyme founded this.
Originally posted by Honeybunz:How come this topic still exists?
When a person comes to post in this sub forum, he should have already established that God exists. This is a forum for Christians to meet and discuss, which was the intention when sillyme founded this.
Which may or may not include sound logic and hence I have to come in.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:hmmm, just because one statement is repeated by one person, the person is deemed to have ENDORSED that claim? quite ludicrious is isn't it....? on the same note, when another person quotes from the Methodist website, I have never insisted that those views were being "endorsed".
hmmm, just because you never insisted that those views were being "endorsed" means others cannot claimed you endorsed them? Can we call this is arrgoant, high and mighty attitude?
In actual fact, when I quote from the methodist website, I actually endorsed what they said (I am not sure about others but I do).......i.e not doing good works is to deny Christ and one who deny Christ cannot claim to have faith in Him (seems some methodist agreed too) and thus cannot claimed to be saved - simple logic.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
it is strange, however, that you are now saying, that I "appear to endorse their claim" while when I had already said that I dislike them very much.... and that smarty boy seem to think it is obvious that i dislike other churches.... so what is it? i endorse their claim yet dislike them?
independent church - non-denomination church, or a church that does not affiliate itself with other established denomination..... good enough for you? I am sure you could have found that out if you had wanted to.
hmmm, maybe because of your obvious hypocritical and oxymoronic views in other threads?
methodist church is also independent church - independent from the Anglicans, Presbytherian, Catholics etc.....and the same goes for all other denominations....
and non-denominations seems like a denomination by itself isn't it?
Originally posted by Omnia:Someone might hate the PAP party but still agree or endorse the notion that it is the largest political party in Singapore. Similarly, just because you dislike CHC doesn't mean that you would or should automatically disagree with the statement that CHC is the largest independent church in Singapore, right ?
In discussing the size of churches in Singapore, you had suggested, "would it offend you (or Omnia) if the claim is: CHC is the largest independent church in Singapore?".
My conclusion in reading this is that it would be odd for you to make this suggestion if you did not agree with or endorse the statement (separate from your personal disposition towards CHC). I use 'agree' and 'endorse' interchangeably in this context and this might have been the cause of the problem. I should have used the less contentious word - 'agree'. For that, I apologise. But for my benefit, do you or do you not agree then with the statement that you highlighted - that CHC is the largest independent church in Singapore ?
Going by your understanding of 'independent church', I would also see all 30+ Catholic parishes here (forming the Archdiocese of Singapore) as a single independent non-denominational church.
If I said that Herzog said that he does not believe in the existence of God....
Does it mean that I endorse or agree that there is no existence of God, or
Does it mean that I claim that Herzog made a remark....
By saying that Herzog made a remark about the existence of God, does that automatically state that I agree with his statement or endorse what he said????
Personally, I don't really care if CHC is the largest independent church or not, neither do i care if the Methodist congregation is larger than them or not, nor the combined Catholic church is larger than them or not....
The statements made were merely to point out the actual wording of CHC's claim, which is, they say they are the largest independent church in Singapore and NOT the largest church in Singapore.
Catholic church being "independent"?
It all hinges on what we think the world "independent" mean. I am sure we are all entitled to our personal definition. If such definitions are different then there is no way to come to a conclusion as to whether the statement that CHC is the largest independent church in Singapore is true or not.
If your definition is that the Catholic church is also an INDEPENDENT church then it's up to you, I have no issue with that claim, we can all make any claims we want. However, there had never been any claims by the Catholic church as being an INDEPENDENT church, unless you are able to substantiate your claim by providing a statement for the Catholic church as being so. It remains your personal claim that the Catholic church is "independent".
Perhaps if you talk to your church fathers and see if they see the Catholic church as being a "Independent" church and share with us as to what they say.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:Personally, I don't really care if CHC is the largest independent church or not, neither do i care if the Methodist congregation is larger than them or not, nor the combined Catholic church is larger than them or not....
Correction......, there is no such thing as combined Catholic Church....Catholic Church is ONE universal Church.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:Catholic church being "independent"?
Catholic Churches are independent from the methodist, Anglicans, Presbytherian, non-demonibations etc....so why is it not independent?
Perhaps if you talk to your church pastors and see if they agree that the Catholic church is not a "Independent" church and share with us as to what they say.....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:If I said that Herzog said that he does not believe in the existence of God....
Does it mean that I endorse or agree that there is no existence of God, or
Does it mean that I claim that Herzog made a remark....
By saying that Herzog made a remark about the existence of God, does that automatically state that I agree with his statement or endorse what he said????
Personally, I don't really care if CHC is the largest independent church or not, neither do i care if the Methodist congregation is larger than them or not, nor the combined Catholic church is larger than them or not....
The statements made were merely to point out the actual wording of CHC's claim, which is, they say they are the largest independent church in Singapore and NOT the largest church in Singapore.
Catholic church being "independent"?
It all hinges on what we think the world "independent" mean. I am sure we are all entitled to our personal definition. If such definitions are different then there is no way to come to a conclusion as to whether the statement that CHC is the largest independent church in Singapore is true or not.
If your definition is that the Catholic church is also an INDEPENDENT church then it's up to you, I have no issue with that claim, we can all make any claims we want. However, there had never been any claims by the Catholic church as being an INDEPENDENT church, unless you are able to substantiate your claim by providing a statement for the Catholic church as being so. It remains your personal claim that the Catholic church is "independent".
Perhaps if you talk to your church fathers and see if they see the Catholic church as being a "Independent" church and share with us as to what they say.
You are right. The Catholic Church does not normally describe itself as being an 'independent' church.
However, since we are trying to ascertain whether City Harvest is really the largest independent church in Singapore, we should try to understand what City Harvest means by 'independent' and apply it to other churches to make a valid comparison.
And going by what you have explained so far, it would be valid to say that all 30+ Catholic parishes in Singapore would make up an 'independent' church; which would mean that City Harvest would neither be the largest church nor largest independent church in Singapore. And more importantly, going back to the original point raised, City Harvest should therefore not be seen to be the face of Christianity in Singapore.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Catholic Churches are independent from the methodist, Anglicans, Presbytherian, non-demonibations etc....so why is it not independent?
Perhaps if you talk to your church pastors and see if they agree that the Catholic church is not a "Independent" church and share with us as to what they say.....
Originally posted by Omnia:You are right. The Catholic Church does not normally describe itself as being an 'independent' church.
hmmm.... on one hand the catholic church does not normally describe itself as being an independent church, yet it is independent from the Methodists, the Anglicans etc etc.... i wonder what is what now...??? and smarty boy is again very good at mimicry.
Originally posted by Omnia:However, since we are trying to ascertain whether City Harvest is really the largest independent church in Singapore, we should try to understand what City Harvest means by 'independent' and apply it to other churches to make a valid comparison.
And going by what you have explained so far, it would be valid to say that all 30+ Catholic parishes in Singapore would make up an 'independent' church; which would mean that City Harvest would neither be the largest church nor largest independent church in Singapore. And more importantly, going back to the original point raised, City Harvest should therefore not be seen to be the face of Christianity in Singapore.
well, again, it goes back to how you want to define things.... if you say that the 30+ Catholic parishes would make an "independent" church, so be it.... but that will go against any previous assumptions or any declarations by the Catholic parishes.... and, as I had said before, unless there is a documented record that the Catholic church is an independent church, i'd safely say that you guys are just trying to define things to make the issue convenient for your own argument.
one point that I will agree with you is: CHC is NOT the face of Christianity in Singapore.... and neither are the catholics.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
hmmm.... on one hand the catholic church does not normally describe itself as being an independent church, yet it is independent from the Methodists, the Anglicans etc etc.... i wonder what is what now...??? and smarty boy is again very good at mimicry.
well, again, it goes back to how you want to define things.... if you say that the 30+ Catholic parishes would make an "independent" church, so be it.... but that will go against any previous assumptions or any declarations by the Catholic parishes.... and, as I had said before, unless there is a documented record that the Catholic church is an independent church, i'd safely say that you guys are just trying to define things to make the issue convenient for your own argument.
one point that I will agree with you is: CHC is NOT the face of Christianity in Singapore.... and neither are the catholics.
You seems to be confused and lost.........what "mega churches" claimed about being independent is really about being not associated with any denominations.
What is your contention that Catholic Church is not independent? Did I not already tell you why we are independent? What did your pastor says?
Mind sharing why the Catholic Church are dependent? And dependent on what?
It is you who always make definitions to suit your own argument.....
and no one said that Catholic is face of Christianity in Singapore (but if going by congregation size, I believed that the Catholics have the biggest following) and certainly, methodist can never be that face just like chc.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:You seems to be confused and lost.........what "mega churches" claimed about being independent is really about being not associated with any denominations.
What is your contention that Catholic Church is not independent? Did I not already tell you why we are independent? What did your pastor says?
Mind sharing why the Catholic Church are dependent? And dependent on what?
It is you who always make definitions to suit your own argument.....
and no one said that Catholic is face of Christianity in Singapore (but if going by congregation size, I believed that the Catholics have the biggest following) and certainly, methodist can never be that face just like chc.
i have never said that methodist is the face of christianity.... and nowhere is there such a claim.
did i say that the catholic church is not independent?
did i say that the catholic is dependent?
i did not introduce this "catholic-church-is-an-independent-church" concept....
what you think you are is really up to you.... but claim as much as you want, as far as i know, there is nothing from the catholic doctrine standpoint that the catholic church had called itself an "independent" church.... if there is, please be so kind to show me.
you wrote:
You seems to be confused and lost.........what "mega churches" claimed about being independent is really about being not associated with any denominations.
... but I'd already said that in my post on 21 Feb, 4.47 pm
Originally posted by Chin Eng:independent church - non-denomination church, or a church that does not affiliate itself with other established denomination..... good enough for you? I am sure you could have found that out if you had wanted to.
so here lies the definition of an "Independent church".... and if this also the definition you give, the CHC claim that they are the largest "independent church" in Singapore may hold some water..... but of course, since you also claim that the catholic church is also an independent church, than ok with me.... just go declare to the world that your's is the largest independent church of the world.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i have never said that methodist is the face of christianity.... and nowhere is there such a claim.
did i say that the catholic church is not independent?
did i say that the catholic is dependent?i did not introduce this "catholic-church-is-an-independent-church" concept....
what you think you are is really up to you.... but claim as much as you want, as far as i know, there is nothing from the catholic doctrine standpoint that the catholic church had called itself an "independent" church.... if there is, please be so kind to show me.
So, to you is the Catholic Church a independent or dependent church ?
You did not say it is dependent and you did not say it is not independent ? So what did you say ?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:Catholic church being "independent"?
is what you said....so you are casting doubts and yet now claimed you did not introduce the concept ?
Then would you say methodist church is independent church? If not, what?
You wrote:
Originally posted by Chin Eng:so here lies the definition of an "Independent church".... and if this also the definition you give, the CHC claim that they are the largest "independent church" in Singapore may hold some water..... but of course, since you also claim that the catholic church is also an independent church, than ok with me.... just go declare to the world that your's is the largest independent church of the world.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:hmmm, maybe because of your obvious hypocritical and oxymoronic views in other threads?
methodist church is also independent church - independent from the Anglicans, Presbytherian, Catholics etc.....and the same goes for all other denominations....
and non-denominations seems like a denomination by itself isn't it?
and this is what I already wrote 22 Feb 10.17pm
and going by that, everyone is a independent church.
The problem started when you claimed that Omnia is comparing apples to oranges...
actually, he just compare a church to a church....you complicate the matters by what you wrote.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:and this is what I already wrote 22 Feb 10.17pm
and going by that, everyone is a independent church.
The problem started when you claimed that Omnia is comparing apples to oranges...
actually, he just compare a church to a church....you complicate the matters by what you wrote.
i don't know what you wrote on 22 feb 10:17 pm... seeing that it's only about 6:30 pm
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:is what you said....so you are casting doubts and yet now claimed you did not introduce the concept ?
i am getting old, can you show me where i'd introduced that concept?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Then would you say methodist church is independent church? If not, what?
it all depends on what you define independent as..... you had already given the CHC definition.... following that definition, Methodist churches are not independent churches.
Originally posted by Omnia:Going by your understanding of 'independent church', I would also see all 30+ Catholic parishes here (forming the Archdiocese of Singapore) as a single independent non-denominational church.
I think this is probably the first instance where "Catholic" and "independent" is linked together.....
By the same tune that Omnia has stated previously, I guess I can assume that he endorses that concept.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i don't know what you wrote on 22 feb 10:17 pm... seeing that it's only about 6:30 pm
already quoted for you to see....ya lah, typo error so change words from pm to am can?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i am getting old, can you show me where i'd introduced that concept?
already quote you liao......go read yourself
Originally posted by Chin Eng:it all depends on what you define independent as..... you had already given the CHC definition.... following that definition, Methodist churches are not independent churches.
so "dependent" church?