TNP: tell god that he is very very good
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Can you prove that the bible says the earth is flat?
exactly the bible never teach that the earth is flat.
Some mad Christian men probably fearing the unreasonable were the ones who insisted that the earth was flat. Dumb I I must say. It was groundless. Well that proved they neither knew God(the bible) or smart.
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Originally posted by january:
after scanning some of your replies, i realize that you all are unreaonable in your logic. Without science, do you think you can enjoy the benefits that modern life affords. Please dun credit god again by saying that god create science.
to repeat, its christian or the bible who says that earth is flat and center of universe. Lucky science has discover such nonsense.
This is often claimed because the Bible says said that every eye will see Jesus at His Second Coming. However, it would seem that His coming will envelop the entire earth
The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
One of the most contradictory story told in the bible can be found in the story of the 2 men which were crucified along with Jesus.
Sorry that I response late.
I don't see that as contradiction as Bible is pass down orally and written much later. The more important issue is what that story meant to us and the message behind it. If you do repent and stand up for what is right, you get......and if you don't then you.......
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Originally posted by january:
after scanning some of your replies, i realize that you all are unreaonable in your logic. Without science, do you think you can enjoy the benefits that modern life affords. Please dun credit god again by saying that god create science.
to repeat, its christian or the bible who says that earth is flat and center of universe. Lucky science has discover such nonsense.
actually. the bible said the earth is round, and "hung in space", a good few hundred years before Jesus' birth.
it's faulty and limited human logic which made people to believe that the earth is flat during a period of time - until someone sailed around the world. forgot who though.
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
As for number two, the church(I'm Catholic) has its faults too for example holding on the principle that the earth was the center of the universe.
'Experts' from the Catholic church agreed that everything revolved around our planet and incarcerate everyone who thought otherwise.
...until proven wrong. And the church corrected itself no longer insisting on this false belief which I've found to be groundless from the perspective of the scriptures(bible).
The point is you put your faith in Jesus not unto one organization. You worship God not organization. The church itself means congregation of believers which now has shifted its meaning into building for Christian worshippers to gather or into a hierarchy that governs and manage Christian activities. The church is you, the church is me the church is the congregation of believers and not pointing to any hierarchy. I do not mean that we have to disrespect the church hierarchy but too many people have fallen into religion fanatics. I used religion fanatics and not religious fanatics because anyone who is truly religious or a man of God would never become a fanatic. Worship God not your religion.
My 2 cents anyway.
Cheers
I am not sure about Catholic Church view that the earth is flat - is it a view of the theologist or an official Church teaching ? Can you point to me cause I am curious...
Anyway, what is important is that we know the truth and the Church's official teaching now.
I agree with you that we all should worship God but the Church (organisation in your wordings) is equally important. The Church's teaching must be the truth based on the Gospel and teachings of Jesus. Even though there are many variations and interpretation, we do have the grace from God to discern which is more resonable and correct in our opinion and embrace on that Church.
I disagree with people trying to read the Bible on their own and try to find a meaning to it because it is quite difficult and dangerous....
Difficult because one need to know the history, langauge, translations, the context in which the passage was written, the purpose and audience etc....
Dangerous because there are many "wrong" interpretations leading to many "stay home christians", and the worst are those self proclaimed pastors who is leading quite a few innocent people astray with their non-denomination charimatic gatherings.
So staying with a Church that has proper trained priest and pastor is important. Otherwise, we will start seeing more cultish activities coming our way....all done in the name of God but with twisted "bible truth".
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january:
you're an embarassment to reasonable atheists everywhere. You've once again proven yourself to be a militant fundamentalist atheist which the world should do without, since you're part of a minority group which tries to stir up discord between theists and atheists.
after scanning some of your replies, i realize that you all are unreaonable in your logic.
what?? you're accusing ALL of us without even demonstrating it.
Without science, do you think you can enjoy the benefits that modern life affords.
I don't deny the efficacy of science but science has nothing to do with questions it is not qualified to answer. As someone said earlier, knowledge about the physical universe. As much as it surprises you, theists don't hate science like fundamentalist atheists like u hate theists. I would list down some theists who are also scientists but they're merely lost on you, so why bother.
Please dun credit god again by saying that god create science.
Certainly not. It would be a discredit to God to say He created the science that you worship.
to repeat, its christian or the bible who says that earth is flat and center of universe. Lucky science has discover such nonsense.
now that you cannot convince reasonably, you resort to mindless repetition.
See you've demonstrated that those who still believe in the conflict between religion and science languish in some academic backwater territory. That particular conflict (from many centuries ago) was a mistake between two schools of scientific thought. Mistake the Church made was to subscribe to any school at all. Suggest you do some reading.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Fucked up atheists studied physics? The aim of science is to know the mind of God..
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Is God tangible or measurable? If God can be measured, then science can be used to know its mind, otherwise the aim of science is to know the truth of things. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Is God tangible or measurable? If God can be measured, then science can be used to know its mind, otherwise the aim of science is to know the truth of things.Faith is trust and hope in God. If you want facts, there's none that the believers can offer you.
I don't understand what is the truth of things. Learning science can only discover how things work, that's all. Will a human build a machine that he cannot control? Will the creator create humans to be more intelligent than Him?
I doubt that the human race can explain everything with science.
At this stage, there's no scientific tool to convince that the believers(in God) are wrong. Until the time comes, let's stick to learning what we already know about science.
Don't be too quick to jump to conclusion and deny God's existence. Be an agnostic, not an atheist.
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Originally posted by 24/7:
january:
you're an embarassment to reasonable atheists everywhere. You've once again proven yourself to be a militant fundamentalist atheist which the world should do without, since you're part of a minority group which tries to stir up discord between theists and atheists.
haha so fierce..
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Faith is trust and hope in God. If you want facts, there's none that the believers can offer you.
I don't understand what is the truth of things. Learning science can only discover how things work, that's all. Will a human build a machine that he cannot control? Will the creator create humans to be more intelligent than Him?
I doubt that the human race can explain everything with science.
At this stage, there's no scientific tool to convince that the believers(in God) are wrong. Until the time comes, let's stick to learning what we already know about science.
Don't be too quick to jump to conclusion and deny God's existence. Be an agnostic, not an atheist.
I am agnostic. I know that there is no proof that there is god, and there is no evidence to disprove it. It is just like alien abductions right? But sometimes I feel that being abducted by aliens sounds more logical than a god existing. I have to say that aethists have more hard evidence than christians. Christians just point things out from the bible.
Let's take a look at Christianity . In christianity, they say that god created everything 5000 years ago. (5000 years right?) That makes some people say that Dinosaurs and prehistoric life is a conspiracy. That is just silly. And they said that god created adam and eve. But there is evidence that humanity began in africa. We were not created to be humans (homo sapiens), we evolved to be humans. Before that we were the 'Homo Erectus'. (google it if you do not know what that is)
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Originally posted by Uraniumfish:
I am agnostic. I know that there is no proof that there is god, and there is no evidence to disprove it. It is just like alien abductions right? But sometimes I feel that being abducted by aliens sounds more logical than a god existing. I have to say that aethists have more hard evidence than christians. Christians just point things out from the bible.
Let's take a look at Christianity . In christianity, they say that god created everything 5000 years ago. (5000 years right?) That makes some people say that Dinosaurs and prehistoric life is a conspiracy. That is just silly. And they said that god created adam and eve. But there is evidence that humanity began in africa. We were not created to be humans (homo sapiens), we evolved to be humans. Before that we were the 'Homo Erectus'. (google it if you do not know what that is)
The Book of Genesis says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. It did not say 5000 years ago.
The creation / evolution debate is still going on today. Not conclusive. The missing link still remains missing.
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Originally posted by Uraniumfish:
I know that there is no proof that there is god..
How do you know? There are proof that there is God, it is just whether you want to accept it or not.
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Originally posted by Uraniumfish:
....... and there is no evidence to disprove it.
That we all totally agreed.......which brings back to us the fact that God do exist and only question is - do you want to accept it since you know that "there is no evidence to disprove it".
Of course the choice is yours but why bother to come here to try telling Christians that God do not exist when it is clear to you that "there is no evidence to disprove it"??
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The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:18
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Originally posted by Uraniumfish:
I am agnostic. I know that there is no proof that there is god, and there is no evidence to disprove it. It is just like alien abductions right? But sometimes I feel that being abducted by aliens sounds more logical than a god existing. I have to say that aethists have more hard evidence than christians. Christians just point things out from the bible.
Let's take a look at Christianity . In christianity, they say that god created everything 5000 years ago. (5000 years right?)
Proof? How about a witness? A witness testimony is considered a proof in the court. And here is my testimony I wrote in other forum. Hello HolyRoute yes I did see Jesus Christ when I was in my 7th grade. I will never forget that day. I was then in my bed at night about 8 pm. I felt terrible about my life. i felt that many people seemed to hate me for no obvious reasons. Then I started to cry. But Because I was a boy I covered my face with my pillow not to let anyone knew I was crying. As I began to cry I started to imagine that I was hugging Jesus where in fact I was hugging my pillow. As I was doing this I thought to myself that no one was worth defending except Jesus and a powerful thought came to me that Jesus was the one without sin. After that thought I felt love for Jesus. Small at first but in a mere few seconds that small love for Jesus was growing exponentially such that in the end I was really really in love with Jesus. I would give to Jesus anything that He asked of me anything at all because I loved Him so much. Then a thought came to me that I could ask something from God. So I did. I asked to be allowed to see Jesus face. Mind you I didn't really realize that Jesus was not mere man as I was still a child. I never read the bible then too. After I uttered my wish with my thought a powerful vision came to me while I was still fully awake laying on my bed. I saw what I believed to be Jesus. His whole body was covered with such immense white light that was coming out from His face. I didn't see any figure but I knew the direction of His face. And because I wanted to see His face I tried to look into the direction of His face but the intensity of the light was such that I couldn't penetrate the light. The light was (getting) much more intense in the direction of His face. The light wasn't giving me any pain though at first. But I was persistent(or foolish) that I kept on trying over and over again. Until I thought to myself: Never mind not being able to see Jesus face. I've seen God and now I could tell this to others. After I thought that to myself I tried for the last time to stare into the direction of His face but this time both of my physical eyeballs hurt. It felt like burning(I didn't realize it was a burning sensation then though) it felt like any small needles hit both of my eyeballs. After this I didn't dare to stare in the direction of His face and only dared to stare down. The vision then began to grow weaker and weaker until it disappear completely. Be blessed ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the bible never said that the earth was created 5,000 years ago. Where did you get that false information? -
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
I am not sure about Catholic Church view that the earth is flat - is it a view of the theologist or an official Church teaching ? Can you point to me cause I am curious...
Anyway, what is important is that we know the truth and the Church's official teaching now.
I agree with you that we all should worship God but the Church (organisation in your wordings) is equally important. The Church's teaching must be the truth based on the Gospel and teachings of Jesus. Even though there are many variations and interpretation, we do have the grace from God to discern which is more resonable and correct in our opinion and embrace on that Church.
I disagree with people trying to read the Bible on their own and try to find a meaning to it because it is quite difficult and dangerous....
Difficult because one need to know the history, langauge, translations, the context in which the passage was written, the purpose and audience etc....
Dangerous because there are many "wrong" interpretations leading to many "stay home christians", and the worst are those self proclaimed pastors who is leading quite a few innocent people astray with their non-denomination charimatic gatherings.
So staying with a Church that has proper trained priest and pastor is important. Otherwise, we will start seeing more cultish activities coming our way....all done in the name of God but with twisted "bible truth".
Well I don't know about the earth being flat but rather about the earth being the center of the universe. As far as I know it was the official church stand which it rigorously defended. I think everyone should read the bible with open conscience. And about the danger of cultism. Again the answer is to read your bible. And if you're still fooled by false teachers and false prophets which are abundant in numbers so help you God. Besides, having a unified perspective on the bible doesn't guarantee that it is the most accurate interpretation of the bible as proved by the then unified stand that the earth was the center of the universe. -
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Well I don't know about the earth being flat but rather about the earth being the center of the universe. As far as I know it was the official church stand which it rigorously defended. I think everyone should read the bible with open conscience. And about the danger of cultism. Again the answer is to read your bible. And if you're still fooled by false teachers and false prophets which are abundant in numbers so help you God. Besides, having a unified perspective on the bible doesn't guarantee that it is the most accurate interpretation of the bible as proved by the then unified stand that the earth was the center of the universe.For those who are interested, the following article discusses the Galileo controversy (whether the earth was at the center of the solar system [geocentricity] or whether the sun was at the center [heliocentricity]:
http://www.catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp
Interesting points from the article (for those too lazy to read the article
) :- During Galileo's time, the geocentric view was widely held to be true by the scientific community at large and not just the Church.
- Contrary to popular belief, Galileo did not manage to prove heliocentricity beyond reasonable doubt because he could not answer the strongest argument against heliocentricity which was made nearly two thousand years earlier by Aristotle. The measuring equipment of Galileo's day did not allow him to do so.
- It was a good thing the Church did not rush to embrace Galileo’s views, because it turned out that his ideas were not entirely correct either. Galileo believed that the sun was not just the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe and that it does move — it simply orbits the center of the galaxy rather than the earth.
- In Galileo's time, the Church had just gone through the Reformation experience and was wary of controversy. Theologians were not prepared to entertain a layman re-interpreting scripture based on the heliocentric theory when he had not proved the new theory beyond reasonable doubt. The Catholic Church has since acknowledged that Galileo's condemnation was wrong (and has even issued two stamps of Galileo
). - We have to remember that the Church's mission is to guide people to heaven; and not to make mathematicians, scientists or astronomers out of people. The Church can be wrong when it comes to these matters but not in matters of faith and morals.
Separately, you don't have to worry about choosing between believing in the teachings of Christ and in the official teachings of the Church* . They are one and the same. Jesus established the Church on earth and granted it authority to teach faith and morals in his name as is made clear in the bible, eg: Luke 10:16 - "whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me."; 1 Tim. 3:15 - the Church being "the pillar and foundation of truth"; Mathew 18-17 - the Church being the final arbiter on disputes in faith and morals and being given the authority to bind and to loose.
* not those of a single priest, another Catholic or a non-Catholic making claims on what the Catholic Church teaches; which might or might not be accurate.
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whether u got God in ur life a not
Life still carry on ~~~~
still have to eat and sleep
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Originally posted by noahnoah:
whether u got God in ur life a not
Life still carry on ~~~~
still have to eat and sleep
Yes but with God it is a different life altogether.
With God(walking with God) each of us is more than a mere man. Each of us is His children and may claim the rights of children have towards their father or parent only in this case God is their father.
To break fortresses or to shake the pillars of this world, to open the doors which otherwise couldn't be opened, to do or see the things that you never imagined you could. To have [some of] the secrets of life. To be assured of being freed from the bondage of evil. To win hearts and to win this life so that we could be spared the imprisonment of death and enjoy eternal life. A life of power abundant, eternal. To have the very best that life has to offer
It's a different life. On this world and in the next. It's a life of power and strength. Of freedom and the truth.
Cheers. New year is coming! -
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Proof? How about a witness? A witness testimony is considered a proof in the court. And here is my testimony I wrote in other forum. Hello HolyRoute yes I did see Jesus Christ when I was in my 7th grade. I will never forget that day. I was then in my bed at night about 8 pm. I felt terrible about my life. i felt that many people seemed to hate me for no obvious reasons. Then I started to cry. But Because I was a boy I covered my face with my pillow not to let anyone knew I was crying. As I began to cry I started to imagine that I was hugging Jesus where in fact I was hugging my pillow. As I was doing this I thought to myself that no one was worth defending except Jesus and a powerful thought came to me that Jesus was the one without sin. After that thought I felt love for Jesus. Small at first but in a mere few seconds that small love for Jesus was growing exponentially such that in the end I was really really in love with Jesus. I would give to Jesus anything that He asked of me anything at all because I loved Him so much. Then a thought came to me that I could ask something from God. So I did. I asked to be allowed to see Jesus face. Mind you I didn't really realize that Jesus was not mere man as I was still a child. I never read the bible then too. After I uttered my wish with my thought a powerful vision came to me while I was still fully awake laying on my bed. I saw what I believed to be Jesus. His whole body was covered with such immense white light that was coming out from His face. I didn't see any figure but I knew the direction of His face. And because I wanted to see His face I tried to look into the direction of His face but the intensity of the light was such that I couldn't penetrate the light. The light was (getting) much more intense in the direction of His face. The light wasn't giving me any pain though at first. But I was persistent(or foolish) that I kept on trying over and over again. Until I thought to myself: Never mind not being able to see Jesus face. I've seen God and now I could tell this to others. After I thought that to myself I tried for the last time to stare into the direction of His face but this time both of my physical eyeballs hurt. It felt like burning(I didn't realize it was a burning sensation then though) it felt like any small needles hit both of my eyeballs. After this I didn't dare to stare in the direction of His face and only dared to stare down. The vision then began to grow weaker and weaker until it disappear completely. Be blessed ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the bible never said that the earth was created 5,000 years ago. Where did you get that false information?
The testimony you just gave was less than believable. And Smarty Boy, you say that there is evidence, so why don't you provide some? I know why you people believe so much of superstition. Since you were born, your parents raised you saying things like "Pray to god and get good results in everything" Since you were very young and open minded, you accepted it as the truth. Even as you got older, you did not think about it, whether it seems logical. And this keeps going on for more and more stupid generations to come. You all might not understand why we do not belive in 'god', but just ask yourself, why do you think all the other religeons' claims are false. Anyone can say they saw jesus. But this sounds like you were dreaming while falling asleep. Either that or you are delusional.Thank you for correcting me on the 5000 years thing. Someone once told me that dinosaurs are a scam and everything started 5000 years ago. That person called herself a christian, guess she did not read the bible.
EDIT: Typographical error
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Originally posted by Uraniumfish:
And Smarty Boy, you say that there is evidence, so why don't you provide some?There is no point trying to prove to you ....not because there is no God but because you do not want to believe....
Well, since you said "there is no evidence to disprove it", why not have an open mind and search for it...??
Christianity is not about superstition or praying to get good results etc....It is about our way of life that God wants us to......
The teaching is about faith, hope and love. Not superstition. Read up about it.
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hello guys, i am back. just scanning some replies and your rebuttal.. saw someone say i was some militant atheist. whatever.
I come in peace. i disagree with use of violence and weapons and wars. I am only interested in verbal debate with people and tell that who is right and wrong and why.
Perhaps my delivery of argument has some flaws, but i guess everyone does that. I would like to remind you that my beliefs and reasons are basically the same as those found in popular atheist website.
No god, no ghost, religion is man made. science, reason, logic, logical fallacy, reality, statistics, maths are the main things that I and atheists use and focus on, and believe for our position of our claims that religion is false.
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Originally posted by january:
hello guys, i am back. just scanning some replies and your rebuttal.. saw someone say i was some militant atheist. whatever.
I come in peace. i disagree with use of violence and weapons and wars. I am only interested in verbal debate with people and tell that who is right and wrong and why.
Perhaps my delivery of argument has some flaws, but i guess everyone does that. I would like to remind you that my beliefs and reasons are basically the same as those found in popular atheist website.
No god, no ghost, religion is man made. science, reason, logic, logical fallacy, reality, statistics, maths are the main things that I and atheists use and focus on, and believe for our position of our claims that religion is false.
yeah you are millitant the moment you started throwing insults and stopped being civilized in your arguments, by injecting jeers into your words.
well, i used to be like that too.
anyway i'm glad you know that your argument delivery is flawed. very flawed. and also, another thing, i'm not really good at theology, but one of your statement is wrong.
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Hi, i'm a catholic and it is through my limited understanding that the story of adam and eve is but only a story used to teach us certain lessons. That it did not really happen? Can anyone clarify?
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Originally posted by 2e3:
Hi, i'm a catholic and it is through my limited understanding that the story of adam and eve is but only a story used to teach us certain lessons. That it did not really happen? Can anyone clarify?
if you're catholic, the bible should be the final authority of truth for you (i'm pretty sure the catholic church believes in creation, i'll be appalled if otherwise)
it's why sin came into the world etc, the flood, all of it, is truth for us.
or is Jesus' death on the cross a fairy tale for you too? then question is, if you don't believe that the bible holds the truth which sets you free, are you really saved on the basis of your confession of your faith (or lack of)?
it's good to find out more though, be convinced by your own findings. =) go attend some courses, ask your priests, ask your mentors etc.
i'm sorry, but i always get frustrated that how come the catholics i know personally don't seem to know why they're believers, or what they really believe.
it's a fine time to start figuring out your faith, because your salvation depends on what you believe is truth..