Originally posted by vince69:Its rather interesting that some catholics says that the church do not teach about tithing now when it was a "law" back in the early church.
"In course of time, we find the payment of tithes made obligatory by ecclesiastical enactments in all the countries of christendom. The Church looked on this payment as "of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself" (C. 14, X de decim. III, 30).
" ~ quoted from the above article from www.catholic.org/encyclopedia
maybe some catholics are not well versed with the more traditional teachings of the church.... and in the process changed the traditional teachings to something else...
however, whether the traditional teachings were changed or not, or whether the individual is aware of them or not.... it remains rather pointless to discuss whether tithing is a correct teaching or not seeing that the money goes to the church. it remains in the church responsibility to see that the money is wisely spent otherwise the leaders of the church is accountable to the unwise expenditure....
whether is it 10% absolute
or 10% plus minus here there
or 10% after CPF
or 10% of expandable income
or as long as you give and happy about it
or 10% in accordance to old leviticus laws....
to me, is another technicality....
insomuch the church don't chase me down like a big ear hole.....
Originally posted by vince69:Thats fine with me, recognising different people uses different things, artifacts and action for reminder.
I am not argueing with you here, just sharing what tithing means to me. It may means something else for you, but thats your opinion, and thats fine, you are entitled to your opinion.
Since we are on this topic, there is a very good article found in Catholic Encylopedia
http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=11586
Its rather interesting that some catholics says that the church do not teach about tithing now when it was a "law" back in the early church.
"In course of time, we find the payment of tithes made obligatory by ecclesiastical enactments in all the countries of christendom. The Church looked on this payment as "of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself" (C. 14, X de decim. III, 30).
" ~ quoted from the above article from www.catholic.org/encyclopedia
Ok, I agree with you that we are entitled to our own views and I am not arguing with you as well. You state your views and I stated mine.
For the article you quoted, can you explain what the article is about ? What happen to the tithes ?
And go to any Catholic Church and ask if anyone tithe and if the Church ask for any tithe......
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:shrugs. i dunno, shouldn't our personal conviction be aligned with what the bible says?
personal conviction can be kinda cloudy - some feel abortion's ok, some feel that divorce is ok..
I agree with you but I would not says conviction but faith. Our faith must be aligned with the bible and our Church teaching. As I mentioned to you before in another thread (if I remember correctly) that when you embrace on a faith, you embrace it whole heartedly.
There are so many versions of Christianity now....all claimed to be the truth. There are some which are pretty attractive and appealing...some not so.
So go with one that convinces you the most that the teachings and explanation of the bible makes most sense to you.
I keep encouraging you to search because it will be helpful to you. Finally, you will be either convinced by another faith or become stronger in the one you currently embraced. So no lost to you.
Abortion is killing another life....and divorce is breaking a vow made in front of God (unless you have a differenr marriage vow).
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Ok, I agree with you that we are entitled to our own views and I am not arguing with you as well. You state your views and I stated mine.
For the article you quoted, can you explain what the article is about ? What happen to the tithes ?
And go to any Catholic Church and ask if anyone tithe and if the Church ask for any tithe......
As to the tithes, according to the article, a part of it goes to support the clergy, a part goes to charity works.
St Augustine actually refer to titheing as part of alm giving which include giving to the church and charity works.
Today, some catholics do practice "tithing" more commonly refer to as giving. This is not highly publicise as the current teaching seems to be teaching that tithing is a matter of obligation of the conscience, or in modern day term, leave it to your conscience/conviction. This is similarly practiced by a lot of traditional protestant churches where the offering box is place at the back of the hall, and believers will just drop in whatever amount that they deciede to put in. Its normally a black box, so noone can see inside or what others had put in.
Just sharing some thoughts, hope to hear from you.
God bless
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:And go to any Catholic Church and ask if anyone tithe and if the Church ask for any tithe......
the issue is not what the church practice per se.....
church practice sometimes varies from church to church. so far the doctrine posted so far seem to indicate that tithing is a teaching (at least), whether is was practiced and eventually forgotten is another matter.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I keep encouraging you to search because it will be helpful to you. Finally, you will be either convinced by another faith or become stronger in the one you currently embraced. So no lost to you.
actually this statement brings to mind an old friend of Eternal Hope who went on the trajectory of being Hebraic in practice of the faith....
Originally posted by vince69:Today, some catholics do practice "tithing" more commonly refer to as giving. This is not highly publicise as the current teaching seems to be teaching that tithing is a matter of obligation of the conscience, or in modern day term, leave it to your conscience/conviction. This is similarly practiced by a lot of traditional protestant churches where the offering box is place at the back of the hall, and believers will just drop in whatever amount that they deciede to put in. Its normally a black box, so noone can see inside or what others had put in.
Just sharing some thoughts, hope to hear from you.
God bless
Yes, the Catholic Churches do ask for "love offering" which is what you termed as giving. The Church teaches the spirit of giving and not enforced tithing.
The article you quote is not about teaching of tithing by the Catholic Church.
I am NEVER against tradtional protestant churches like some assumed and make wild allegations about. And I am aware that they do not enforce tithing. That is why I told dumbdumb that the sources I have are from protestants.
Having said that, why are protestant churches not enforcing tithe?
I am actually against wrong teaching of tithes and enforcing it so that it enriches only some which is why I said in the beinging of the thread:
"There are recent outcry about mega churches and one of the issues is about money which of course comes from tithing. However, is tithing a correct teaching? Can they be enforced on all Christians?"
I am never against giving money to the Church....10%, 15% or 200%...
Originally posted by Chin Eng:the issue is not what the church practice per se.....
church practice sometimes varies from church to church. so far the doctrine posted so far seem to indicate that tithing is a teaching (at least), whether is was practiced and eventually forgotten is another matter.
actually this statement brings to mind an old friend of Eternal Hope who went on the trajectory of being Hebraic in practice of the faith....
Please explain how that article is a doctrine and please explain in full context what the article is about....
Fortunately for Catholics, the Church practices the same doctrines universally....and do not varies from Church to Church.....
And our Church do practice what she preaches......
What happen to one guy should not deter others from searching......
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Yes, the Catholic Churches do ask for "love offering" which is what you termed as giving. The Church teaches the spirit of giving and not enforced tithing.
The article you quote is not about teaching of tithing by the Catholic Church.
I am NEVER against tradtional protestant churches like some assumed and make wild allegations about. And I am aware that they do not enforce tithing. That is why I told dumbdumb that the sources I have are from protestants.
Having said that, why are protestant churches not enforcing tithe?
I am actually against wrong teaching of tithes and enforcing it so that it enriches only some which is why I said in the beinging of the thread:
"There are recent outcry about mega churches and one of the issues is about money which of course comes from tithing. However, is tithing a correct teaching? Can they be enforced on all Christians?"
I am never against giving money to the Church....10%, 15% or 200%...
ha ha... i am aware that you do not wish to respond to me directly... no problem... edit: (i stand corrected... you did respond)
i think if you had phrased the title to this as Can The Church Enforce Tithing would have been more appropriate.
your title is: is tithing a correct teaching, and to some the word tithing will mean giving, and that giving is a teaching of Scripture, hence tithing IS a correct teaching, but giving, while correct, is also subjected to some conditions, one of which is, be a joyful giver.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Please explain how that article is a doctrine and please explain in full context what the article is about....
Fortunately for Catholics, the Church practices the same doctrines universally....and do not varies from Church to Church.....
And our Church do practice what she preaches......
What happen to one guy should not deter others from searching......
don't mean to find fault here.... the homosexual priests.... is that practicing what is being preached???
no need to get all high and mighty lah.... every church organisation have their own idiosyncrisis... to claim that you guys do not vary church to church is just simply arrogant and open yourself mockery.... some catholic churches are charismatic and some are not....
so far, the indication is, there are evidence that the Catholic church teaches the doctrine of tithe....
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2449.htm
2449 Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of juridical measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to tithe, the daily payment of the day-laborer, the right to glean vines and fields) answer the exhortation of Deuteronomy: "For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, 'You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor in the land.'" Jesus makes these words his own: "The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me." In so doing he does not soften the vehemence of former oracles against "buying the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals . . .," but invites us to recognize his own presence in the poor who are his brethren:
http://www.saint-mike.org/Library/Rule/Excerpts/principles_tithing.asp
.... maybe this is NOT catholic also....
and how about this... a myriad of opinions about tithing from various catholics....
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=121898
and maybe these catholics are not the same as your church...
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Catholics-955/tithe-1.htm
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Fortunately for Catholics, the Church practices the same doctrines universally....and do not varies from Church to Church.....
.... seems the variants of practice is larger than is thought to be....
Seems also that The Catholic Church of Central Austin has a take on tithing in this article: Stewardship: Tithing above and beyond the parish level
http://www.austindiocese.org/newsletter_article_view.php?id=3315
hmm.... practice the same doctrine universally eh???
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
don't mean to find fault here.... the homosexual priests.... is that practicing what is being preached???no need to get all high and mighty lah.... every church organisation have their own idiosyncrisis... to claim that you guys do not vary church to church is just simply arrogant and open yourself mockery.... some catholic churches are charismatic and some are not....
so far, the indication is, there are evidence that the Catholic church teaches the doctrine of tithe....
then what?
Having homosexual priest means it's the Church's fault? Or is that the priest fault? What has that to do with the Church doing what it preaches?
High and mighty? You mean you?
"some catholic churches are charismatic and some are not...." ??
Tithe is mentioned in the bible and when it appears on any Catholic site means Catholic Church teaching tithing?
Since you said tithing is the correct teaching, then why is yours not teaching and enforcing it? Oh, I forgot your based on opinions...forget it.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:then what?
Having homosexual priest means it's the Church's fault? Or is that the priest fault? What has that to do with the Church doing what it preaches?
High and mighty? You mean you?
"some catholic churches are charismatic and some are not...." ??
Tithe is mentioned in the bible and when it appears on any Catholic site means Catholic Church teaching tithing?
Since you said tithing is the correct teaching, then why is yours not teaching and enforcing it? Oh, I forgot your based on opinions...forget it.
homosexual priests that were NOT dealt with except with cover ups is .... whose fault?
so, tithing is mentioned in catholic sites.... with many catholics doing it.... with quotation in the catechism.... and mentioned in catholic sermons..... is NOT being taught by the catholic church??? oookkkayy.......
so since so many catholics are practicising it.... which part of that shows that the catholic church "practice the same doctrine universally"???
please QUOTE ME where I had said tithing is the CORRECT TEACHING? otherwise you are putting words in my mouth.... again....
unless of course, you are referring to this...
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
your title is: is tithing a correct teaching, and to some the word tithing will mean giving, and that giving is a teaching of Scripture, hence tithing IS a correct teaching, but giving, while correct, is also subjected to some conditions, one of which is, be a joyful giver.
... i was writing in the context of the DEFINITION OF TITHING.... which to some is giving... if giving is the correct teaching of Scripture, therefore to replace the word giving with tithing (probably similar to those catholic links), giving is correct, therefore tithing is a correct teaching.
... as i'd said.... you problem is: you are trying to deal with enforced tithing like those of the megachurches but you did not make yourself very clear from the start.... compounded by the fact that, it seems, many catholic sites use the word "tithing", plus many catholics have stated explicitly that they "tithe".
... perhaps the problem is not TITHING per se, but the definition and the execution of the concept of tithing.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:homosexual priests that were NOT dealt with except with cover ups is .... whose fault?
so, tithing is mentioned in catholic sites.... with many catholics doing it.... with quotation in the catechism.... and mentioned in catholic sermons..... is NOT being taught by the catholic church??? oookkkayy.......
so since so many catholics are practicising it.... which part of that shows that the catholic church "practice the same doctrine universally"???
please QUOTE ME where I had said tithing is the CORRECT TEACHING? otherwise you are putting words in my mouth.... again....
Any homosexual priest not dealt with? And the Church is not doing anything about it?
The Pope has addressed that problem and also, the Church has taken steps to minimise same happening as you can read HERE. Will it happen again? Who knows.....but is it the fault of the Church?
None of the article showed that the Church is teaching tithing and that Catholics must pay 10% of their income to the Church......and none state that it is a doctrine where the Church will enforce it.....NONE!
If any Catholic wants to give 10%, why not? What has it got to do with same practice of doctrine universally?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:your title is: is tithing a correct teaching, and to some the word tithing will mean giving, and that giving is a teaching of Scripture, hence tithing IS a correct teaching, but giving, while correct, is also subjected to some conditions, one of which is, be a joyful giver.
putting words in your mouth?? Maybe you can go on and explain why you Church do not teach and enforce tithing...............
Originally posted by Chin Eng:... i was writing in the context of the DEFINITION OF TITHING.... which to some is giving... if giving is the correct teaching of Scripture, therefore to replace the word giving with tithing (probably similar to those catholic links), giving is correct, therefore tithing is a correct teaching.
... as i'd said.... you problem is: you are trying to deal with enforced tithing like those of the megachurches but you did not make yourself very clear from the start.... compounded by the fact that, it seems, many catholic sites use the word "tithing", plus many catholics have stated explicitly that they "tithe".
... perhaps the problem is not TITHING per se, but the definition and the execution of the concept of tithing.
Problem is you never bother to read it properly before jumping the gun and start making all kind of wild allegations.
Tithing is 10% and is different from giving freely....and I said many times no tithing does not means no giving........
and really, the problem is you.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:putting words in your mouth?? Maybe you can go on and explain why you Church do not teach and enforce tithing...............
aiyah... churches that tithe are incorrect you complain...
and my church don't enforce, i have to explain to you... crazy or what?
like the faith and works thing... it does not matter to me...
in your case, you are so adament that the catholic church does not preach, nor enforce that, yet all the links i'd provided shows otherwise...
... but if you need to know.... we encourage offering... a lot.... and that the Methodist church have conference funds paid by members to support the church admin and pay pastors' salary.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Problem is you never bother to read it properly before jumping the gun and start making all kind of wild allegations.
Tithing is 10% and is different from giving freely....and I said many times no tithing does not means no giving........
and really, the problem is you.
ok, that being the case, what's with the tithe in the catholic website??? how does this go to show that the catholic church has similar practice??? please provide an explanation all those catholic links on tithing.....
the problem is YOUR definiton and when you choose to define what....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Any homosexual priest not dealt with? And the Church is not doing anything about it?
None of the article showed that the Church is teaching tithing and that Catholics must pay 10% of their income to the Church......and none state that it is a doctrine where the Church will enforce it.....NONE!
If any Catholic wants to give 10%, why not? What has it got to do with same practice of doctrine universally?
fathers being transferred from one parish to another.... paying off the victims not to blow up the issues.... just google: homosexual priests.... i am not even defining whether it's catholic or taoists....
having said all that... i am not denying that protestant churches are free from such sins... all churches have plenty of faults, i acknowledge that.... i hope you can do the same for your church.
none of the article show..? but why use the word tithe.... if the definition is tithing is 10%.... and i assume that these catholics are not stupid and they know the definition of with tithing is....
unless you want me to assume that all those articles are in error and all these catholic writers and brethens are too stupid to understand the word of "tithe".
even that catechism also have the word tithe.... so either the catechism should change or our understanding of the word "tithe" is wrong.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:aiyah... churches that tithe are incorrect you...
and my church don't enforce, i have to explain to you... crazy or what?
like the faith and works thing... it does not matter to me...
in your case, you are so adament that the catholic church does not preach, nor enforce that, yet all the links i'd provided shows otherwise...
... but if you need to know.... we encourage offering... a lot.... and that the Methodist church have conference funds paid by members to support the church admin and pay pastors' salary.
First : "hence tithing IS a correct teaching,"
Then : "aiyah... churches that tithe are incorrect"
"i have to explain to you... crazy or what?" so I don't see any need to explain anything to you.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:First : "hence tithing IS a correct teaching,"
Then : "aiyah... churches that tithe are incorrect"
"i have to explain to you... crazy or what?" so I don't see any need to explain anything to you.
i do need to make a correction... i meant to say "aiyah... churches that tithes you complain
and my church don't enforce, i have to explain to you... crazy or what?"
... but i did explain... as much as i know....
nonetheless, you have changed the context of the flow of dialogue.... never mind...
you don't see the need, and i don't see the possibility....
catholic websites are brimming with the tithing thing.... which is ok by me.... no big deal.
you are brimming with fire about tithing being wrong... which is also ok by me.... no big deal....
but you cannot resolve the conflict of theology between you (a catholic) and the catholic websites, and if i may add, containing sermons about tithing.... mind you, not AGAINST tithing...
plus a cathecism clause that contains (and if I may add) nothing against the word "tithing"....
more on catholic tithing....
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14741b.htm
"Soglia (Institut, Canon, II, 12) says "The law of tithe can never be abrogated by prescription or custom, if the ministers of the Church have no suitable and sufficient provision from other sources; because then the natural and divine law, which can neither be abrogated not antiquate, commands that the tithe be paid." In some parts of Canada, the tithe is still recognized by civil law, and the Fourth Council of Quebec (1868) declared that its payment is binding in conscience of the faithful."
http://uscatholic.claretians.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=12555&news_iv_ctrl=1346&abbr=usc_
"Canon 222 of the Code of Canon Law outlines two financial obligations of the faithful: “to assist with the needs of the church” and “to promote social justice and...assist the poor.” Those Catholic parishes that have adopted tithing often embrace that dual focus, encouraging a gift of 5 percent of gross income to the parish and an additional 5 percent to charitable causes. "
it does seem the issue of NOT-tithing is not as widespread as original thought and that the practices are also not as universal as claimed.
i seriously CANNOT even find ONE catholic site that says that tithing is an absolutely wrong teaching....
discussions in catholic websites talks about the history of tithing, the evolving of the giving culture, the rationale over why there was institutionalized tithing and why such practice have changed.... but never was such publication on the issue of whether tithing was a wrong teaching....
protestant websites? got plenty that says tithing is wrong...
maybe, just maybe.... smarty boy may not be as catholic as he says he is.
whether tithing is correct or wrong... tithing had a place in history when the priests needed the folks to support them. tithing had a historical precedence in the old testament. whether it had lost it's relevance in the new testament cannot be concluded.
something that was practiced in the old testament as a command to the people of God CANNOT BE WRONG.
what it can be is: it become less relevant now.... but still it does not make it WRONG (as in unbiblical).
the real issue:
anyone can make a stand for anything he sees fit.
anyone can also openly disregard or oppose the tenets of his faith because of such convictions.
but this person cannot claim to be congruent to the tenets of his faith especially when the various articles found in this faith's websites contain indications or implications that this church condone of the practice of tithing.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i do need to make a correction... i meant to say "aiyah... churches that tithes you complain
and my church don't enforce, i have to explain to you... crazy or what?"
... but i did explain... as much as i know....
nonetheless, you have changed the context of the flow of dialogue.... never mind...
you don't see the need, and i don't see the possibility....
catholic websites are brimming with the tithing thing.... which is ok by me.... no big deal.
you are brimming with fire about tithing being wrong... which is also ok by me.... no big deal....
but you cannot resolve the conflict of theology between you (a catholic) and the catholic websites, and if i may add, containing sermons about tithing.... mind you, not AGAINST tithing...
plus a cathecism clause that contains (and if I may add) nothing against the word "tithing"....
Now, need to change what you said........??
Nothing you said proved that Catholic Churches today is teaching tithing and that it is being enforced on all Catholics. As you mentioned, History......
You came in with wild allegation and make this thread OT and now start pointing fingers at others?
You can keep quoting Catholic sites that have sermons on tithes (why is that a problem?) but none that enforces tithes like those churches I am talking about. NONE.
If you wish to argue about right or wrong, go and read those links in the first post and state your stand why you think it is not wrong. Don't stray OT and start blaming others.