Originally posted by Joshen zx:"Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me.You say,how have we robbed you? In tithes and offerings. You have said: 'it is useless to keep God's ordinance' , yet you say ' how have we robbed you?'"
Pls read - Will a man rob God? for answer and insight.
Originally posted by Joshen zx:"Jesus didnt preach tithing leh? Doesnt that mean its outdated?"
No it is not outdated….it is just that. Jesus never preach and teach tithing because it is not necessary. Rather, he preach and teach the spirit of giving.
Originally posted by Joshen zx:Wrong. First I must make it clear that only believers can tithe. When Jesus was still alive, He could not ask people to tithte because He had not yet died for their sins. IF they tried to tithe, it would be regarded as a "debt payment" and not a tithe. But at the cross, AFTER He paid for all our sins, once and for all, we are free to tithe!
This is nothing but complete rubbish in my opinion. If this is important and necessary, Jesus would have said so before He died or…..after His death when He was with His disciple before ascending to Heaven. He did not.....WHY?
Also, the apostles and Paul would have preach and teach this if it is necessary and important. Did they? NO! WHY? Answer is clear isn’t it?
Don't know how and where you get this kind of rubbish.........
Originally posted by Joshen zx:but there were cases of people tithing when He was still on earth. I refer to Zacchaeus, the rich tax collecter whom Jesus cried out to" I must come and eat at your house". Jesus showed him what pure undeserved favor was like and the result of that revelation is that Zacchaeus went out, and returned all that he cheated 4 times the amount, and gave half his possesions to the poor. Only grace can lead a man to tithe.
Again, this is complete rubbish as what Zacchaeus did has nothing to do with tithe….he wasn’t tithing.
The story of Zacchaeus is used by some to illustrate the saying of Jesus: "Blessed are the pure of heart, For they shall see God" Matthew 5:8. Zacchaeus whose name means pure, climbed up a tree, which represents the cross, and by being symbolically crucified with Christ, was able to see God (He who has seen Jesus has seen God John 14:9)
The sycamore tree, climbed by Zacchaeus, was considered "unclean" because it bore a fruit that was fed to pigs. In the culture of the time it was humiliating for Zacchaeus to climb that tree. To see Jesus, Zacchaeus' pride had to be crucified. In Romans, Paul wrote "knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." Romans 6:6
Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold.” Luke 19:8 Why fourfold ? Why not just pay back what he took? Exodus chapter 22 prescribes the restitution required when responsible for loss of another's property. Exodus 22:1-15 Restitution ranges from straight replacement for negligence, increasing up to two, four or five times replacement for various thefts. King David applied this rule when he said, "And he shall restore fourfold for the lamb, because he did this thing and because he had no pity."2Samuel 12:6
Rather than asking how little he could do to correct his past wrongs, Zacchaeus chose a generous restitution. He placed himself on guilty side of the spectrum of Exodus 22. Now he was living in maximum obedience to God. There was no law that required giving half of everything to the poor, but Zacchaeus chose that as well. Zacchaeus demonstrated Jesus' command, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." Matthew 16:24 Mark 8:34 Luke 9:23
The above explanation is a cut and paste from wikipedia and showed that there is completely no relationship between this story and tithes.
Originally posted by Joshen zx:For proof, the previous chapter, there was a rich young ruler. He asked Jesus " Teacher, what must I do to get eternal life? " He regarded Jesus not as Saviour, but merely as Teacher. So Jesus gave him the "standard" answer. Actually this guy not bad.. of all the commandments, he already keep all, short of 1. Just one leh.. "Give all you have to the poor and follow me." what happens when Jesus showed him the Law? The poor boy could not even give one coin. But under grace, Zachaeus opened up his coffers.
Once again, this is complete rubbish. You know that Jesus asked the young man to sell and give all he had to the poor and follow Him. Jesus never said sell everything and tithe…..or give to the temple….. or give to me (Jesus) but to the poor! More importantly, Jesus is telling us not to be attached to earthly riches and not to be greedy about them. What do you think is more important – riches or the chance to follow Jesus (and gain eternal life)?
It has nothing to do with teaching of tithe or anything remotely close to that. You are listening to some warped theology…..
Originally posted by Joshen zx:Ya, I know about tithing now.But I dun want to give to church. Can give to charity direct or not? Scared later the church take my money and buy golden tap or toilet bowl...
You don't have to tithe to a Church and if the Church is supported by God, by His grace and providence, the Church will survive....if not, let the church go bankrupt.....
BUT, you need to give (love offerings) to the Church you go to because you want to keep it going and it is your love of God and your church to give what you can. What you give upkeep the church and not to make someone rich and you certainly do not give so that you can get rich......
And giving outside the Church is the correct thing to do and any true Church will encourage that.....love, compassion and charity are the main themes of Jesus ministry and is what true Churches should preach. Not just preaching it but also doing what they preach.
The fact that one person made a mistake with a golden tap or toilet does not mean that we stop trusting charity organisations. One of the original 12 disciples Judas betrayed Jesus and even Peter denied Jesus 3 times! So, why believe in Christianity?
Originally posted by Joshen zx:Where is God's house? The church! Is it any church? No, instead it is the one where you get your "spiritual food" from. If your church is not feeding you with the Word, then feel free to find one that does and tithe to it.
What do i mean by good food?
1) Does faith come by hearing and hearing the Word that is being preached?
2) when the pastor preaches, does he use Bible to interpret Bible?
3) is there life in the church? or is everyone looking like doom and gloom is right upon us?
4) do you find yourself wanting more and more of the Good News?
thats food my friends...
1. Faith does not come from what is being preached. It comes from living out what is being preached. It is about listening and acting on it.
2. The pastor should not interpret the bible or everyone will have they own theory. The pastor need to be trained and equipped with enough knowledge of the bible in order to preach. Self proclaimed pastor who rely on "God spoke to me" and "Give me a strong amen" is a NO....NO.....NO......
3. The Church is actually the people and look rather at the behavoiur of the people, the pastor, the helpers......and most importanly - look at yourself!
4. Do you want more "good news" or do you want the TRUTH? Jesus said - carry your cross and follow me.....if you want to follow Jesus, you still need to carry your cross.....just like Jesus did.
Originally posted by Joshen zx:This message is dangerous ... must warn you.. Cos when you believe it and tithe like this, be prepared. You will be so blessed that your nets will break, your boat will sink, and there might be 12 basketfuls left over if your not too careful... But if you like having God to personally prsoper you His way, then by all means tithe.
Hope i shared some relvelation on this subject..
There is no relvelation shared but wrapped theory. Sorry.
Tithing do not bring blessings and will not. Giving is the right spirit will....God prosper you by teaching you not to be greedy......be contended......and most important to love others.
Being is rich is about needing less. Needing less is about being contended. Loving is about giving..... and to give is more blessed than to receive.
Yes, start giving and sharing and helping the poor and needy. This is the only way that Christians can live out thier faith and uses love to reach others. In that way, others especially the poor and needy will know that God is there for them (because He send them Christians) and God love them (cause Christians love them).
Remember, do this to the least of one of your brothers and sisters and you do it upon Him. Talk about loving God.
Originally posted by vince69:The word for Tithe actually means giving a tenth. so in actual sense, if one give a tenth (be it from his month pay packet or his asset), he is giving a Tithe.
If the person give this to the church, he is tithing to the church. If he give this to a charity, in a sense, he can also be said to have tithed to the charity organisation.
so strictly speaking, tithing is the same as giving (except that there is a notion of a tenth tied to it).
One way of looking at giving/tithing regularly to the church organisation can be seen as
1) providing a steady income for the church organisation so that it can function effectively, and also allows it to provide for its full time staffs.
2) charity works can be co-ordinated, in a sense, a more organised manner and also bigger scale and inpact.
$100 individually may not do much, but imagine 1000 members give $100 each… $100,000 will do much more.ok… to this subject, why do I tithe…
To me, Tithing is a constant reminder that God is in charge. He is in charge of my life, and knowing this, gives me joy, hope, peace and strength. These, to me are the greatest of all blessings.
The question is whether teaching of tithing is correct. The obvious answer is NO.
Is tithing really 10%? Perhaps, you can read this link http://www.biblebb.com/files/tithing.htm
I agree with you that we need to give to our Church and what you said is quite true. But, there is no need for the church to teaching tithing and ask for 10% saying that it is God's commandment when it is not. See the point?
Worst, look at some so called churches that preaches a lot of tithing and see the kind of indulgence of their pastors and their lifestyle....and claimed that it is grace of God.
How much charity work is being done and how much (percentage) of the tithes collected goes to the poor and needy?
There is nothing wrong in giving to the church but it is the spirit of giving that is important. Why should giving of tithe be tied to blessing and grace from God?
A better way to remember God is in charge is by living out our faith as Christians by showing love to our neighbour i.e. helping the poor and needy....with lots of prayers to God for guidiance....and what better way to "repay" God for His blessings showered upon us than by showering others with our love? Remember again, do it to one of the brothers and sisters and you have done it to Him.
Tithing is not the right way to go and money should not be used as a "reminder that God is in charge"......
God bless you.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
What's your point about this link? To define tithes? Or that Catholic Churches teaches tithing?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:The question is whether teaching of tithing is correct. The obvious answer is NO.
Is tithing really 10%? Perhaps, you can read this link http://www.biblebb.com/files/tithing.htm
you assume that ALL CHURCHES teaches tithing.... you also assume that ALL CHURCHES enforce tithing....
no need to go the "the obvious answer is NO".... reality of the matter is.... there is NO obvious answer.
you seem so hell-bent to prove others wrong and your theology to be correct.
my own methodist church do NOT practice tithing and have never attempted to control the amount the members give.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:What's your point about this link? To define tithes? Or that Catholic Churches teaches tithing?
that there's a contradiction in what you say the catholic church teaches and what's being said in wiki.
wiki seems to suggest that catholics do teach about tithing
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:that there's a contradiction in what you say the catholic church teaches and what's being said in wiki.
wiki seems to suggest that catholics do teach about tithing
actually to me.... it is quite ok to deviate from the official teachings vs personal convictions... it's just that when sharing, don't go the way of "what i believe is absolute" or "the bible says..."
.... but this is just my opinion..
Originally posted by Chin Eng:you assume that ALL CHURCHES teaches tithing.... you also assume that ALL CHURCHES enforce tithing....
no need to go the "the obvious answer is NO".... reality of the matter is.... there is NO obvious answer.
you seem so hell-bent to prove others wrong and your theology to be correct.
my own methodist church do NOT practice tithing and have never attempted to control the amount the members give.
When did I say ALL CHURCHES teaches tithing??
When did I say ALL CHURCHES enforce tithing??
My Church do not....... or is it your own wrong assumption??
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:that there's a contradiction in what you say the catholic church teaches and what's being said in wiki.
wiki seems to suggest that catholics do teach about tithing
Catholic Churches do not teach tithing and your own experience at Catholic Churches should attest to it. But some do (not teach but pay) because it is under their civil law.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
actually to me.... it is quite ok to deviate from the official teachings vs personal convictions... it's just that when sharing, don't go the way of "what i believe is absolute" or "the bible says...".... but this is just my opinion..
Read through the links and comments if you support them or not. As I mentioned earlier in one of the reply, if you agree, then don't tithe like what it is being taught in some churches. If you do not agree and wants to continue to tithe, it's your choice. No problem.
Did anyone here said "what i believe is absolute"?
And what about "the bible says..."? Are you belief not according to what the bible says?? Or just opinions.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:The question is whether teaching of tithing is correct. The obvious answer is NO.
Is tithing really 10%? Perhaps, you can read this link http://www.biblebb.com/files/tithing.htm
I agree with you that we need to give to our Church and what you said is quite true. But, there is no need for the church to teaching tithing and ask for 10% saying that it is God's commandment when it is not. See the point?
Worst, look at some so called churches that preaches a lot of tithing and see the kind of indulgence of their pastors and their lifestyle....and claimed that it is grace of God.
How much charity work is being done and how much (percentage) of the tithes collected goes to the poor and needy?
There is nothing wrong in giving to the church but it is the spirit of giving that is important. Why should giving of tithe be tied to blessing and grace from God?
A better way to remember God is in charge is by living out our faith as Christians by showing love to our neighbour i.e. helping the poor and needy....with lots of prayers to God for guidiance....and what better way to "repay" God for His blessings showered upon us than by showering others with our love? Remember again, do it to one of the brothers and sisters and you have done it to Him.
Tithing is not the right way to go and money should not be used as a "reminder that God is in charge"......
God bless you.
Thats fine with me, recognising different people uses different things, artifacts and action for reminder.
I am not argueing with you here, just sharing what tithing means to me. It may means something else for you, but thats your opinion, and thats fine, you are entitled to your opinion.
Since we are on this topic, there is a very good article found in Catholic Encylopedia
http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=11586
Its rather interesting that some catholics says that the church do not teach about tithing now when it was a "law" back in the early church.
"In course of time, we find the payment of tithes made obligatory by ecclesiastical enactments in all the countries of christendom. The Church looked on this payment as "of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself" (C. 14, X de decim. III, 30).
" ~ quoted from the above article from www.catholic.org/encyclopedia
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
actually to me.... it is quite ok to deviate from the official teachings vs personal convictions... it's just that when sharing, don't go the way of "what i believe is absolute" or "the bible says...".... but this is just my opinion..
shrugs. i dunno, shouldn't our personal conviction be aligned with what the bible says?
personal conviction can be kinda cloudy - some feel abortion's ok, some feel that divorce is ok..
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:shrugs. i dunno, shouldn't our personal conviction be aligned with what the bible says?
personal conviction can be kinda cloudy - some feel abortion's ok, some feel that divorce is ok..
no everything lah... this is a grey area. if want to be strict about it. Tithing means give 10%.... cannot be 9%, cannot be 11%, must be 10%, else its not a tenth. Even 10% also have different interpretation, 10% of what? salary (including CPF deduction)? nett salary (after CPF deduction)? gross salary (including CPF deduction and employor comtribution)? .....etc
anyway... this is personal conviction on how much to give ....etc.
The main idea is to be a cheerful, willing giver and to remember that God is in charge.
God bless
Originally posted by vince69:
no everything lah... this is a grey area. if want to be strict about it. Tithing means give 10%.... cannot be 9%, cannot be 11%, must be 10%, else its not a tenth. Even 10% also have different interpretation, 10% of what? salary (including CPF deduction)? nett salary (after CPF deduction)? gross salary (including CPF deduction and employor comtribution)? .....etc
anyway... this is personal conviction on how much to give ....etc.
The main idea is to be a cheerful, willing giver and to remember that God is in charge.
God bless
shrugs, alot of things, must ask personally with God.
but i agree that, while God asks for a tenth, He also laid down several conditions.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:When did I say ALL CHURCHES teaches tithing??
When did I say ALL CHURCHES enforce tithing??
My Church do not....... or is it your own wrong assumption??
granted. no you did not say all churches teaches tithing....
i never assumed your church teaches tithing....
.... but you seem to want to draw the line between your catholic upbringing and protestant practices.... and the undertone is that many protestant practices are in error.... but you DID NOT SAY IT.....
.... no end lah.... such comparison.... sprinkling baptism, immersion baptism, or just kenna a little wet baptism...
read bread, real wine, or wafer and ribena....
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:shrugs. i dunno, shouldn't our personal conviction be aligned with what the bible says?
personal conviction can be kinda cloudy - some feel abortion's ok, some feel that divorce is ok..
aligning with what the Bible say is not similar to agreeing with what the church does..
we only assume that the church is doing what the Bible say it must do....
personal conviction IS CLOUDY.... having said that church teaching isn't all the great either.
i see it as: my company have their own vision and mission statement.... whether i agree with them or not is actually quite immaterial (to my company).
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Read through the links and comments if you support them or not. As I mentioned earlier in one of the reply, if you agree, then don't tithe like what it is being taught in some churches. If you do not agree and wants to continue to tithe, it's your choice. No problem.
Did anyone here said "what i believe is absolute"?
And what about "the bible says..."? Are you belief not according to what the bible says?? Or just opinions.....
actually it's the tone of your argument.... that seem to suggest that you are right (in your belief) and the others are wrong, how else to interpret the purpose of starting such a thread?
in the context of Eternal Hope, serious threads are started for the following reasons:
1. To ask a question - to query, usually very amicable.
2. To debunk a belief in order to put forth the thread-starter's point of view and in the process run down other opinions.
3. To share a story - usually also quite amicable until some fella will go and an disturb the peace.
In all honesty, can you sincerely say that your intention is not number 2?