I think we shouldn't think all churches are like these because of the bad experience you encountered.
If you are really that concerned about how the church spent their money, read their Annual Financial report. If you don't agree with the spending (eg... they have mishandled the fund), then you can choose to leave the church and keep looking for another one.
Christians are not perfect so are the Pastors and staffs of the church. They are human too who are prone to temptations (Greed).
Why do you allow this experience to stop you from knowing our loving God?
because it is all the same .no such thing as god and the church main purpose is money.if you got any church that give money to me want .tell me i might love god again.
childish
Originally posted by [J]erry:childish
so this is the pattern of christian..lol....still fanctise in thise fairytale story...
very hard go around to be chrsit likeness(maybe fake christian .shall be those TONA or TONA-ian)...haha
so being a christian i can't do anything then pray and pray?
come on kid grow up
why are u posting against god with every post?
are u really that despo for people to join u?
go and join january and his amazing forum
Originally posted by [J]erry:i don't care what the church does with my tithing..
i just have to give my 10% thats all
hmmm...I don't quite agree with "i don't care what the church does with my tithing"....
Rather, I would want to know why the church is asking me to tithe when Jesus did not say so? And what do they want my tithe for?
It will be good to read all the links and at least, we know what we are doing......
Originally posted by [J]erry:so being a christian i can't do anything then pray and pray?
come on kid grow up
why are u posting against god with every post?
are u really that despo for people to join u?
go and join january and his amazing forum
wow, you power this what the pattern of a christian is...lol(must be a fake one...lol)
go church just for girl...really pervert.so did you get the girl?which church is that is it the all girl church..lol
people go church bcos want to know more about the so call god...
heng me left church 6years ago...lol
Originally posted by [J]erry:so its wrong to be rich?
Who here don't want to eat in very expensive resturant, Drive nice, and stay in big house?
Nothing wrong being rich or wanting to be rich.....but not GREEDY.....
Like Paul said, he does not want to burden the people which is why he choose to life a simple life....like all the other apostles and Jesus.
Jesus also condem the desire and attachment to "earthly riches" as the true treasure that we should desire for are those stored in Heaven.
Certainly, should a person become rich by collecting tithes?
Originally posted by [J]erry:Rev Kong don't earn money from tithings.. he has his own business, Selling CDs..
Perhaps, he already got enough in the past.....maybe?
Or he has build up enough fans base by now so he can survive selling stuffs to you?
Did Jesus not said that the only buisness His Church should do is His father's business? Or did He said we can sell books, CDs etc...for personal gain using the Church?
I wonder....
Originally posted by [J]erry:if you are giving so unwillingly. how is god able to bless you back?
i gave $200 for building funds.. though is not alot but its withing my reach..
i got bless back a Omnia phone, a Laptop out of the blue by my friends dad
and i never even say anything about those 2 items and i got it why? God is at work.. but must give with a smile
God bless everyone......you don't need to pay for it....come on don't belittle God.
It is good that you meet with generous people but it has NOTHING to do with tithe or giving money to a Church......
When you give, you give with a smile (as you rightly said) and I add to give because you wanted to help. Not expecting anything in return and returns should NEVER be in the equation.......NEVER.
By the way, giving is not just about money.....you can give your time to volunteering for charities (yes not just church), your skill and knowledge and helping the poor and needy like in a home etc...
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Perhaps, he already got enough in the past.....maybe?
Or he has build up enough fans base by now so he can survive selling stuffs to you?
Did Jesus not said that the only buisness His Church should do is His father's business? Or did He said we can sell books, CDs etc...for personal gain using the Church?
I wonder....
maybe once awhile when investment ka-na loss .Can reach his hand accidental into the pocket of follower.then say that god commanded him to..
Originally posted by Joolead:maybe once awhile when investment ka-na loss .Can reach his hand accidental into the pocket of follower.then say that god commented him to..
I don't know about this......do you? Or just slander?
as i say the word maybe?didn't i?
Originally posted by Joolead:as i say the word maybe?didn't i?
"Can reach his hand accidental into the pocket of follower.then say that god commanded him to.."
is what you write....... maybe was used for "maybe once awhile when investment ka-na loss"
anyway, the thread here is about the wrong teaching of tithe.
Originally posted by Joolead:because it is all the same .no such thing as god and the church main purpose is money.if you got any church that give money to me want .tell me i might love god again.
You are after the kind of christianity that we do not want.....because that is not the real Christianity. Christianity is about faith, hope and love. Money is NEVER part of the equation.
I think you have wasted all your time in the past in your church if all you know is that god is about money......
You never had a chance to know God and so your claims are false.....(at least to me).
Originally posted by honeymouse:I think we shouldn't think all churches are like these because of the bad experience you encountered.
If you are really that concerned about how the church spent their money, read their Annual Financial report. If you don't agree with the spending (eg... they have mishandled the fund), then you can choose to leave the church and keep looking for another one.
Christians are not perfect so are the Pastors and staffs of the church. They are human too who are prone to temptations (Greed).
Why do you allow this experience to stop you from knowing our loving God?
If the church is preaching money, leave at once.....and you see, Joolead is an example of a victim of such preaching....
Saying tithe is needed so that you can receive blessings are lies and playing on people's greed.....
It may be good to read the links in the first post and take time to understand why teaching of tithe is wrong and not defensible with the Bible.
If you agree with them then stop doing the wrong thing (to tithe) and if you are still convinced that god's blessing is for sale, it's your choice.
this topic is starting to confuse me
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:this topic is starting to confuse me
Why? Don't get side track.....keep to what is in the first post...tithing is a wrong teaching and the articles are to help understand and support that. Sources are from protestants. The other side tracks issues and children's quarrel, you can ignore.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Why? Don't get side track.....keep to what is in the first post...tithing is a wrong teaching and the articles are to help understand and support that. Sources are from protestants. The other side tracks issues and children's quarrel, you can ignore.
i believe tithing is a right teaching. Just because people do it out of the wrong reasons (fear, greed), it's still a fact that God commands tithing.
the woman who gave all she had (2 copper coins), and Jesus commended her?
it's quite common knowledge that the priests were probably dipping into the donation box now and then, but yet, the woman, knowing that, still chose to give because she knows that's what God commands, and God honours that, and Jesus honours that.
God's command is God's command, regardless of how man tries to benefit from it.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i believe tithing is a right teaching. Just because people do it out of the wrong reasons (fear, greed), it's still a fact that God commands tithing.
the woman who gave all she had (2 copper coins), and Jesus commended her?
it's quite common knowledge that the priests were probably dipping into the donation box now and then, but yet, the woman, knowing that, still chose to give because she knows that's what God commands, and God honours that, and Jesus honours that.
God's command is God's command, regardless of how man tries to benefit from it.
I think the point that is mixing up here is the word tithe......
Tithe and giving money to the Church is not the same......
As I have said, no tithing does not mean no giving.....
Teaching of tithing is wrong because it is not required. The list of articles answered to that and why and what tithes really are. So far no one has denied that or come with biblical facts that Jesus wants us to tithe like it is being done now...
Tithes has been used by churches to force the people to give money. Some become unwillinging or complaining which defeat the purpose in the first place but does the pastor care? They are only concerned that they need the money for their semi-d and conti cars.... The best reason they use is "God's command is God's command" but tithes is not God's command for us!
and tithes are not 10% only....
Why don't they just believed in God's providence and know that the people will give and God will help provide for His Churches.
Everyone should give what they can and comfortable with....and when they like to. For people who can commit time or expertise, they should contribute to the Church too and that's part of giving too.
Some churches may be very organised and have people to look after the babies, kids etc.... but how much money do they spend on that? Are those volunteers or paid workers?
Go and check on some of the churches' website to see how much they spend on salary etc... My Church only has 5 paid people - 3 priests (1 going away soon), 1 admin staff and 1 general worker. Everything else are runned by volunteers.....
The point is, did God command us to tithe 10% to our church? Read those articles and you will find the answer. It takes time but it's worth it.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I think the point that is mixing up here is the word tithe......
Tithe and giving money to the Church is not the same......
As I have said, no tithing does not mean no giving.....
Teaching of tithing is wrong because it is not required. The list of articles answered to that and why and what tithes really are. So far no one has denied that or come with biblical facts that Jesus wants us to tithe like it is being done now...
Tithes has been used by churches to force the people to give money. Some become unwillinging or complaining which defeat the purpose in the first place but does the pastor care? They are only concerned that they need the money for their semi-d and conti cars.... The best reason they use is "God's command is God's command" but tithes is not God's command for us!
and tithes are not 10% only....
Why don't they just believed in God's providence and know that the people will give and God will help provide for His Churches.
Everyone should give what they can and comfortable with....and when they like to. For people who can commit time or expertise, they should contribute to the Church too and that's part of giving too.
Some churches may be very organised and have people to look after the babies, kids etc.... but how much money do they spend on that? Are those volunteers or paid workers?
Go and check on some of the churches' website to see how much they spend on salary etc... My Church only has 5 paid people - 3 priests (1 going away soon), 1 admin staff and 1 general worker. Everything else are runned by volunteers.....
The point is, did God command us to tithe 10% to our church? Read those articles and you will find the answer. It takes time but it's worth it.
what do you mean, tithing isn't God's command?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:what do you mean, tithing isn't God's command?
No, not for all Christians (but for Israelites) .....and certainly not in the way it is done now. You read the articles to find out as too long to explain.....
Maybe can start with this : http://www.biblebb.com/files/tithing.htm
This is an EXELLENT question. I can declare right here right now that tithing IS sanctified by God and when you tithe, you will surely reap.
Lets look at Malachi, the last chapter of the O.T.
"Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me.You say,how have we robbed you? In tithes and offerings. You have said: 'it is useless to keep God's ordinance' , yet you say ' how have we robbed you?'"
God's ordinance here was in reference to the concept of tithes and offerings. Now, why would God say 'you have robbed me" if it was an act out of our "respect" for God?
In the above chapter still in Malachi, God says :" Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house."
The keyword here is "Bring". Normally, when someone says "Give me a car", it means that you own the car, and whether you give or not its up to you. But when he says "Bring me the car", please dont say to another friend afterwards :" I gave him that car". He'll say : Eh, come here come here... What you mean you gave me that car? You brought back my car!"
Am i understandable so far?
"but what good does it do to follow this ordinance?" God says, "first bring the tithe in, and TEST ME NOW IN THIS! See if I will not throw open the windows of blessing upon you."
This is the only one time God says "Test me". How many believe this verse?
"Jesus didnt preach tithing leh? Doesnt that mean its outdated?"
Wrong. First I must make it clear that only believers can tithe. When Jesus was still alive, He could not ask people to tithte because He had not yet died for their sins. IF they tried to tithe, it would be regarded as a "debt payment" and not a tithe. But at the cross, AFTER He paid for all our sins, once and for all, we are free to tithe!
but there were cases of people tithing when He was still on earth. I refer to Zacchaeus, the rich tax collecter whom Jesus cried out to" I must come and eat at your house". Jesus showed him what pure undeserved favor was like and the result of that revelation is that Zacchaeus went out, and returned all that he cheated 4 times the amount, and gave half his possesions to the poor. Only grace can lead a man to tithe.
For proof, the previous chapter, there was a rich young ruler. He asked Jesus " Teacher, what must I do to get eternal life? " He regarded Jesus not as Saviour, but merely as Teacher. So Jesus gave him the "standard" answer. Actually this guy not bad.. of all the commandments, he already keep all, short of 1. Just one leh.. "Give all you have to the poor and follow me." what happens when Jesus showed him the Law? The poor boy could not even give one coin. But under grace, Zachaeus opened up his coffers.
So therefore, tithing and offerings cannot fully function by the law. Where do i get my proof? Lets go all the way back to Genesis. The story now is that there were some kings who were invading the land. The leader of those kings was Kerdorlaomer, King of Elam, which is present day Iran. This king of Iran conqured their enemies and looted the cities, and guess who was in one of them? Abraham's nephew, Lot! So they carried Lot and all that he had away too.
When Abraham heard of this, he took up all 318 fighting men in his house and hunted the kings down. Abraham took back Lot and his things, plus the defeated kings and their possession(including women and children) PLUS the invading army's plunder. Wow.. Thats ALOT of gold and silver and slaves...
Then King of Sodom( an evil king for sure,just look at the name), one of the defeated kings, came to Abraham and said " Keep the gold, just give me the people." Abraham said, "I will not take anything from you, not even a shoelace, lest you say I made abraham rich. Just give my men their share."
Then, another King appeared. This was King Melchizedek( his name means King Of Righteousness). In his hand was the Holy Communion elements. Abraham tithed unto Melchizedek. Eh? This was the VERY first direct mention of the tithe. But this happened more than 400 years BEFORE the law. So tithing and the law are two seperate things!
If you have managed to read until here, good job lol..
Ya, I know about tithing now.But I dun want to give to church. Can give to charity direct or not? Scared later the church take my money and buy golden tap or toilet bowl...
The Lord says: Bring the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house"
Where is God's house? The church! Is it any church? No, instead it is the one where you get your "spiritual food" from. If your church is not feeding you with the Word, then feel free to find one that does and tithe to it.
What do i mean by good food?
1) Does faith come by hearing and hearing the Word that is being preached?
2) when the pastor preaches, does he use Bible to interpret Bible?
3) is there life in the church? or is everyone looking like doom and gloom is right upon us?
4) do you find yourself wanting more and more of the Good News?
thats food my friends...
Ya ok, but i dun want to give through church can? I want to give direct!
Ok lor, you throw up wards... what ever drops back down goes to the church ok?
This message is dangerous ... must warn you.. Cos when you believe it and tithe like this, be prepared. You will be so blessed that your nets will break, your boat will sink, and there might be 12 basketfuls left over if your not too careful... But if you like having God to personally prsoper you His way, then by all means tithe.
Hope i shared some relvelation on this subject..
Originally posted by Joshen zx:This is an EXELLENT question. I can declare right here right now that tithing IS sanctified by God and when you tithe, you will surely reap.
Lets look at Malachi, the last chapter of the O.T.
"Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me.You say,how have we robbed you? In tithes and offerings. You have said: 'it is useless to keep God's ordinance' , yet you say ' how have we robbed you?'"
God's ordinance here was in reference to the concept of tithes and offerings. Now, why would God say 'you have robbed me" if it was an act out of our "respect" for God?
In the above chapter still in Malachi, God says :" Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house."
The keyword here is "Bring". Normally, when someone says "Give me a car", it means that you own the car, and whether you give or not its up to you. But when he says "Bring me the car", please dont say to another friend afterwards :" I gave him that car". He'll say : Eh, come here come here... What you mean you gave me that car? You brought back my car!"
Am i understandable so far?
"but what good does it do to follow this ordinance?" God says, "first bring the tithe in, and TEST ME NOW IN THIS! See if I will not throw open the windows of blessing upon you."
This is the only one time God says "Test me". How many believe this verse?
"Jesus didnt preach tithing leh? Doesnt that mean its outdated?"
Wrong. First I must make it clear that only believers can tithe. When Jesus was still alive, He could not ask people to tithte because He had not yet died for their sins. IF they tried to tithe, it would be regarded as a "debt payment" and not a tithe. But at the cross, AFTER He paid for all our sins, once and for all, we are free to tithe!
but there were cases of people tithing when He was still on earth. I refer to Zacchaeus, the rich tax collecter whom Jesus cried out to" I must come and eat at your house". Jesus showed him what pure undeserved favor was like and the result of that revelation is that Zacchaeus went out, and returned all that he cheated 4 times the amount, and gave half his possesions to the poor. Only grace can lead a man to tithe.
For proof, the previous chapter, there was a rich young ruler. He asked Jesus " Teacher, what must I do to get eternal life? " He regarded Jesus not as Saviour, but merely as Teacher. So Jesus gave him the "standard" answer. Actually this guy not bad.. of all the commandments, he already keep all, short of 1. Just one leh.. "Give all you have to the poor and follow me." what happens when Jesus showed him the Law? The poor boy could not even give one coin. But under grace, Zachaeus opened up his coffers.
So therefore, tithing and offerings cannot fully function by the law. Where do i get my proof? Lets go all the way back to Genesis. The story now is that there were some kings who were invading the land. The leader of those kings was Kerdorlaomer, King of Elam, which is present day Iran. This king of Iran conqured their enemies and looted the cities, and guess who was in one of them? Abraham's nephew, Lot! So they carried Lot and all that he had away too.
When Abraham heard of this, he took up all 318 fighting men in his house and hunted the kings down. Abraham took back Lot and his things, plus the defeated kings and their possession(including women and children) PLUS the invading army's plunder. Wow.. Thats ALOT of gold and silver and slaves...
Then King of Sodom( an evil king for sure,just look at the name), one of the defeated kings, came to Abraham and said " Keep the gold, just give me the people." Abraham said, "I will not take anything from you, not even a shoelace, lest you say I made abraham rich. Just give my men their share."
Then, another King appeared. This was King Melchizedek( his name means King Of Righteousness). In his hand was the Holy Communion elements. Abraham tithed unto Melchizedek. Eh? This was the VERY first direct mention of the tithe. But this happened more than 400 years BEFORE the law. So tithing and the law are two seperate things!
If you have managed to read until here, good job lol..
Ya, I know about tithing now.But I dun want to give to church. Can give to charity direct or not? Scared later the church take my money and buy golden tap or toilet bowl...
The Lord says: Bring the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house"
Where is God's house? The church! Is it any church? No, instead it is the one where you get your "spiritual food" from. If your church is not feeding you with the Word, then feel free to find one that does and tithe to it.
What do i mean by good food?
1) Does faith come by hearing and hearing the Word that is being preached?
2) when the pastor preaches, does he use Bible to interpret Bible?
3) is there life in the church? or is everyone looking like doom and gloom is right upon us?
4) do you find yourself wanting more and more of the Good News?
thats food my friends...
Ya ok, but i dun want to give through church can? I want to give direct!
Ok lor, you throw up wards... what ever drops back down goes to the church ok?
This message is dangerous ... must warn you.. Cos when you believe it and tithe like this, be prepared. You will be so blessed that your nets will break, your boat will sink, and there might be 12 basketfuls left over if your not too careful... But if you like having God to personally prsoper you His way, then by all means tithe.
Hope i shared some relvelation on this subject..
Thanks for your sharing and it is exactly this type of thinking that we are trying to change. So do read up on all the links in the first post. Thanks.
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