Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:It's nice to know that Christians can laugh at insults to their religion.
well depending on the insult. If you live a life of utter insult to God by doing sinister things and making other people(believers) disavowing God I would happily. . . .
pray for you
to die quickly
Hey I'm not Jesus. You're not that lucky. LOL
One asshole on the way to sheol for transit.
Interesting reasonings people.. ;p
keep it up. lol
hahaha
Originally posted by laurence82:Many problems with your reasoning
1. Who says this comic is about turning to the right entity? Why would sorting the trouble out oneself will necessarily lead to deeper hole? If St Augustine said this, how many Christians really know this and practise it. I am sure many dont, hence i think the potrayal is just and fair.
2. On one hand you said many Christians also avoid sin due to noble cause, ie, they love God and neighbours, on the other hand you believe many atheists avoid sin due to fear of punishments. if you think the comic portray biases, how can you lap it up with another?
3. Well, truth is there are many religious wars driven by maniacs who invoke God's name. But the point isnt about God.
Seems nobody realise this comic isnt about Christianity, its about Christians, and it seems the fact remains unchanged.
1. How can you be sure that a majority of Christians (I use the term majority since we want this to be a 'just and fair' portrayal) merely ask for God's help and expect miracles without wanting to do anything ? If there are such Christians (and there are), they need to be corrected. If that is the intention of this comic strip, then I have no quarrels with it. But I personally think that the comic is going beyond that to imply that any prayer to God (regardless of whether it is accompanied by action) is a waste of time. Instead, it is going to be a bother to God, which need not be the case as I've tried to illustrate in my analogy.
2. There are Atheists AND Christians who avoid wrong-doing for 'noble reasons' (love of God, right thing to do etc) and there are also Atheists AND Christians who avoid wrong-doing for less noble reasons (fear of punishment, whether it is hell, prison or otherwise). Unfortunately (and deliberately I suspect), the comic chose to depict only half the picture, implying that Atheists avoid wrong-doing for noble reasons and Christians do so for less noble reasons. If that is not bias, then what is ?
3. As with the above, the comic again tries to exult the atheist by implying that (unlike 'believers'), "atheists never use God's name to wage wars", which is true since atheists do not believe in God. But the comic conveniently fails to mention that atheists (or anybody for that matter) can and do start wars for many other reasons (power, hatred, insecurities, greed ... ). Again, if that is not bias, then what is ?
Originally posted by Omnia:1. How can you be sure that a majority of Christians (I use the term majority since we want this to be a 'just and fair' portrayal) merely ask for God's help and expect miracles without wanting to do anything ? If there are such Christians (and there are), they need to be corrected. If that is the intention of this comic strip, then I have no quarrels with it. But I personally think that the comic is going beyond that to imply that any prayer to God (regardless of whether it is accompanied by action) is a waste of time. Instead, it is going to be a bother to God, which need not be the case as I've tried to illustrate in my analogy.
2. There are Atheists AND Christians who avoid wrong-doing for 'noble reasons' (love of God, right thing to do etc) and there are also Atheists AND Christians who avoid wrong-doing for less noble reasons (fear of punishment, whether it is hell, prison or otherwise). Unfortunately (and deliberately I suspect), the comic chose to depict only half the picture, implying that Atheists avoid wrong-doing for noble reasons and Christians do so for less noble reasons. If that is not bias, then what is ?
3. As with the above, the comic again tries to exult the atheist by implying that (unlike 'believers'), "atheists never use God's name to wage wars", which is true since atheists do not believe in God. But the comic conveniently fails to mention that atheists (or anybody for that matter) can and do start wars for many other reasons (power, hatred, insecurities, greed ... ). Again, if that is not bias, then what is ?
1. Its similar to your statement - "Similarly, I'm quite sure there are many atheists who avoid wrong doing because they fear prison and punishment and not for any noble reason.". How can you be sure there are majority or many atheists who avoid wrongdoing because they fear prison and punishment and not for any noble cause. It could be conscience pricking at them too.
I personally do not think this comic imply any prayer to god is a waste of time. It is going to be a bother to god, if its all prayers and no effort, as the comic strip illustrates.
Also, who says this comic is about turning to the right entity? Why would sorting the trouble out oneself will necessarily lead to deeper hole? Please answer why you made this statement earlier.
2. Unfortunately, only because you are the only few person I know who said this. Most Christians I know will talk about retribution and punishments only. Hence, your statement is insignificant to the masses that have been uttered no matter how politically correct you made it be.
3. For your last statement, i have to repeat my statemente. Truth is there are many religious wars driven by maniacs who invoke God's name. But the point isnt about God.
Seems nobody realise this comic isnt about Christianity, its about Christians, and it seems the fact remains unchanged.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:well depending on the insult. If you live a life of utter insult to God by doing sinister things and making other people(believers) disavowing God I would happily. . . .
pray for you
to die quickly
Hey I'm not Jesus. You're not that lucky. LOL
One asshole on the way to sheol for transit.
If stating facts makes people lose their faith in God, then I really have to admit that God does not exist.
Originally posted by laurence82:1. Its similar to your statement - "Similarly, I'm quite sure there are many atheists who avoid wrong doing because they fear prison and punishment and not for any noble reason.". How can you be sure there are majority or many atheists who avoid wrongdoing because they fear prison and punishment and not for any noble cause. It could be conscience pricking at them too.
I personally do not think this comic imply any prayer to god is a waste of time. It is going to be a bother to god, if its all prayers and no effort, as the comic strip illustrates.
Also, who says this comic is about turning to the right entity? Why would sorting the trouble out oneself will necessarily lead to deeper hole? Please answer why you made this statement earlier.
2. Unfortunately, only because you are the only few person I know who said this. Most Christians I know will talk about retribution and punishments only. Hence, your statement is insignificant to the masses that have been uttered no matter how politically correct you made it be.
3. For your last statement, i have to repeat my statemente. Truth is there are many religious wars driven by maniacs who invoke God's name. But the point isnt about God.
Seems nobody realise this comic isnt about Christianity, its about Christians, and it seems the fact remains unchanged.
1. OK, let's both not use the word 'many' then, agreed ? I still think that the comic is implying that any prayer to God (regardless of whether it is accompanied by action) is a waste of time. If you don't think so, good for you. But I don't think the comic is being so benign. As it is so fond of doing, it only depicts a certain kind of believer and a certain kind of Atheist to try to show up the 'superiority' of the Atheist.
I agree with you that sorting out one's trouble oneself without turning to God does not necessarily mean that one will get into more trouble (he might though) and I also agree with you that the comic strip is not about turning to the 'right' entity. The point being made was that if you were a loving Dad, would you rather your child think of you when he gets into trouble, or would you rather your child not even think about you at all (either because he does not believe you exist, or he believes that you would not lift a finger to help or that he wants to do everything himself without involving you) ? If you prefer the second option, so be it. But there would be Dads who would be heartbroken if the child chose that. And if imperfect earthly Dads feel that way, what more about God in heaven ?
2. Yes, it is certainly unfortunate that you appear to only know Christians who talk about retribution and punishment, and thereby conclude that most Christians avoid wrong doing because of hell (We have to be careful though. Without knowing the context of your conversations with these Christians, it is difficult to determine whether what was said has anything to do with the issue brought up by this comic strip).
As mentioned above, since we both take issue with the word 'many', let's leave it out. My point still remains that there are both Christians and Atheists who avoid wrong-doing because of noble reasons, and there are both Christians and Atheists who avoid wrong-doing because of less noble reasons. The comic strip is biased in choosing to portray only one type of Christian and one type of Atheist to support its notion that God prefers Atheists.
3. Yes, your statement is correct - "there are xxxx religious wars driven by maniacs who invoke God's name. But the point isnt about God." So what is the point that the comic is trying to make ? That Atheists are somehow 'better' than non-Atheists because they do not wage wars in God's name (and that's why God prefers Atheists), right ? As I've pointed out, Atheists (or anybody) can and do start wars for a host of other reasons. They are not necessarily better than non-Atheists in this regard, and if they are not, there is no reason why God would prefer an Atheist.
This comic picks less than ideal Christian behaviour and contrasts it with the very best of Atheist behaviour and somehow concludes that God prefers Atheists. That is bias. I would like to add that i fully agree that there would be Atheists who are more pleasing to God than Christians. But the biasness inherent in the comic strip is insidious in that it might lead readers to believe that in general, Atheists are better than non-Atheists and are more pleasing to God. That is what I have taken issue with.
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:If stating facts makes people lose their faith in God, then I really have to admit that God does not exist.
Hmm I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I wasn't referring to the comic stip in that particular quote.
The first large scale persecution of Christians were committed by Nero between 64-68 AD.
The First Crusade was launched in 1095 to free Christians from Islamic rule.
Throughout history, there are documented cases of atheists killing Chrisitans for their faith.
I've not read about wars waged by Christians against atheists for being atheists.
"Throughout history, there are documented cases of atheists
killing Christians for their faith."
Eee, what for?
As in... what made them so angry?
Originally posted by googoomuck:The first large scale persecution of Christians were committed by Nero between 64-68 AD.
The First Crusade was launched in 1095 to free Christians from Islamic rule.
Throughout history, there are documented cases of atheists killing Chrisitans for their faith.
I've not read about wars waged by Christians against atheists for being atheists.
1st sentence is some guy kill christian, with example
2nd sentence is christians and islam war, with example
3rd sentence is atheist killing christians... with no example
4th sentence is waiting people to prove or disprove.
was this nero guy an atheist? did he kill christians in the name of his god? my guess is that he is.
Internet says Nero wasn't Atheist, in faact..
At the end of 66, conflict broke out between Greeks and Jews in Jerusalem and Caesarea. According to a Jewish tradition in the Talmud (tractate Gitin 56a-b), Nero went to Jerusalem and told his men to shoot arrows in all four directions. All the arrows landed in the city. He then asked a passing child to repeat the verse he had learned that day. The child responded "I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel" (Ez. 25,14). Nero became terrified, believing that God wanted the Temple in Jerusalem to be destroyed, but would punish him if it was. Nero said, "He desires to lay waste His House and to lay the blame on me," whereupon he fled and converted to Judaism to avoid such retribution.
.. but this is Wikipedia, so we may have to take it with a grain of salt.
"Early Christian tradition often holds Nero as the first persecutor of Christians and as the killer of Apostles Peter and Paul. There was also a belief among some early Christians that Nero was an Antichrist."
As to why he persecuted the Christians.. I cant find anything in the page.
But other sources suggest.. misunderstanding!
"In 64 CE Rome underwent a catastrophic fire,
which some believed had been set at the orders of the emperor
himself. Tacitus claims that Nero tried to shift the blame to
the unpopular Christians, though other sources indicate that their
persecution may have been unconnected to the fire. It is not clear
exactly why many Romans so detested the new believers, though
Christians were often confused with Jews, who were accused of
being rebellious (with some reason, since the Jews of Judaea more
than once created insurrections against the Roman provincial government)
and lazy (since they rested on the Sabbath)."
But I'd like to know why the atheists killed christians for their faith. Not believing strongly in any faith, I'd think that they wouldnt have any action against others besides critique? Scrutiny, even? Murder, though... leaves me confused. Could it be attributed to the lower level of civilisation back then?
What made a Christian 'hate-able' to these Atheists?
[omg it's just a comic.. but conversation/discussion is interesting, I suppose]
Originally posted by Zandermccoll:Internet says Nero wasn't Atheist, in faact..
Jewish tradition
At the end of 66, conflict broke out between Greeks and Jews in Jerusalem and Caesarea. According to a Jewish tradition in the Talmud (tractate Gitin 56a-b), Nero went to Jerusalem and told his men to shoot arrows in all four directions. All the arrows landed in the city. He then asked a passing child to repeat the verse he had learned that day. The child responded "I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel" (Ez. 25,14). Nero became terrified, believing that God wanted the Temple in Jerusalem to be destroyed, but would punish him if it was. Nero said, "He desires to lay waste His House and to lay the blame on me," whereupon he fled and converted to Judaism to avoid such retribution.
.. but this is Wikipedia, so we may have to take it with a grain of salt.
"Early Christian tradition often holds Nero as the first persecutor of Christians and as the killer of Apostles Peter and Paul. There was also a belief among some early Christians that Nero was an Antichrist."
As to why he persecuted the Christians.. I cant find anything in the page.
But other sources suggest.. misunderstanding!
"In 64 CE Rome underwent a catastrophic fire, which some believed had been set at the orders of the emperor himself. Tacitus claims that Nero tried to shift the blame to the unpopular Christians, though other sources indicate that their persecution may have been unconnected to the fire. It is not clear exactly why many Romans so detested the new believers, though Christians were often confused with Jews, who were accused of being rebellious (with some reason, since the Jews of Judaea more than once created insurrections against the Roman provincial government) and lazy (since they rested on the Sabbath)."
But I'd like to know why the atheists killed christians for their faith. Not believing strongly in any faith, I'd think that they wouldnt have any action against others besides critique? Scrutiny, even? Murder, though... leaves me confused. Could it be attributed to the lower level of civilisation back then?
What made a Christian 'hate-able' to these Atheists?
[omg it's just a comic.. but conversation/discussion is interesting, I suppose]
give example of atheist kill christian?
Meet Godfrey.
Opps! here he is.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:Hmm I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I wasn't referring to the comic stip in that particular quote.
And I think you purposefully misunderstood me.
"give example of atheist kill christian?"
My last few sentences there refer to googoomuck's "Throughout history, there are documented cases of atheists
killing Chrisitans for their faith."
So I oso donno. But I want to know. that's why asking, heh
Who's Godfrey?
Originally posted by Zandermccoll:Internet says Nero wasn't Atheist, in faact..
Jewish tradition
At the end of 66, conflict broke out between Greeks and Jews in Jerusalem and Caesarea. According to a Jewish tradition in the Talmud (tractate Gitin 56a-b), Nero went to Jerusalem and told his men to shoot arrows in all four directions. All the arrows landed in the city. He then asked a passing child to repeat the verse he had learned that day. The child responded "I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel" (Ez. 25,14). Nero became terrified, believing that God wanted the Temple in Jerusalem to be destroyed, but would punish him if it was. Nero said, "He desires to lay waste His House and to lay the blame on me," whereupon he fled and converted to Judaism to avoid such retribution.
.. but this is Wikipedia, so we may have to take it with a grain of salt.
"Early Christian tradition often holds Nero as the first persecutor of Christians and as the killer of Apostles Peter and Paul. There was also a belief among some early Christians that Nero was an Antichrist."
As to why he persecuted the Christians.. I cant find anything in the page.
But other sources suggest.. misunderstanding!
"In 64 CE Rome underwent a catastrophic fire, which some believed had been set at the orders of the emperor himself. Tacitus claims that Nero tried to shift the blame to the unpopular Christians, though other sources indicate that their persecution may have been unconnected to the fire. It is not clear exactly why many Romans so detested the new believers, though Christians were often confused with Jews, who were accused of being rebellious (with some reason, since the Jews of Judaea more than once created insurrections against the Roman provincial government) and lazy (since they rested on the Sabbath)."
But I'd like to know why the atheists killed christians for their faith. Not believing strongly in any faith, I'd think that they wouldnt have any action against others besides critique? Scrutiny, even? Murder, though... leaves me confused. Could it be attributed to the lower level of civilisation back then?
What made a Christian 'hate-able' to these Atheists?
[omg it's just a comic.. but conversation/discussion is interesting, I suppose]
Don't be biased in your posting. From the same article that you've posted but this paragraph not included in your post:
<Roman sources nowhere report Nero's alleged conversion to Judaism, a religion considered by the Romans as extremely barbaric and immoral. It seems unlikely that such sources - almost universally hostile towards the emperor - would not have passed up the opportunity to denigrate Nero even further by mentioning this alleged conversion. Neither is there any record of Nero having any offspring who survived infancy: his only recorded child, Claudia Augusta, died aged 4 months. The historical evidence of the Talmud thus appears faulty with respect to Nero.>
The early Christians were deemed to be stubborn because of their refusal to perform the token ritual acknowledging the divine status of the Emperor.
Sorry.. I just took what caught my eye (was hunting for Nero's reasons for persecution) first
danke danke
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
And I think you purposefully misunderstood me.
No I did not.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:I don't laugh at it I don't find it particularly funny.
I'm not offended by it either.
Let me ask you a question.
Have you ever ask God for any assistance at all? Eg, to remove the sickness of your loved one, passing of exam etc? if you did, then the 1st comic is true, because non believers don't pray to god for that.
An example for the 2nd one is that I have heard many believers saying that they are not having pre marital sex because they are following God's advice. For non believers, they choose not to engage in pre marital sex because they are not ready to have a baby. Thus the 2nd comic also depicts the truth.
as for the 3rd part, you have seen for yourself what Osama did.
Since this comic is purely depicting what is truly happening around us in a light hearted manner, I dont think you should have such strong reactions towards it.
I am also one of those who laughed after reading the comic. While reading it, I wasnt even bothered if God has any favouritism towards me. I read the comic and appreciate the humour behind it. But after reading your posts, all the strong, negative language used really reflects badly on you and your religion. It is telling all others that you and your religion is much too conservative that doesnt accept / is not open to any form of criticism even when it is something as minor as a comic strip.
Though i am saying this, I have many good christian friends... and they are my friends because they are not as extreme as you. Learn to accept others opinions and take that comic with a pinch of salt. If you think its not true then ignore it. There is no need to attack anyone or to defend your religion. Those who believe in your religion should already know in their heart that whatever said is not true. Those non believers basically just wanted to enjoy a good laugh and we mean no harm.
Originally posted by dibilo:
Let me ask you a question.
Have you ever ask God for any assistance at all? Eg, to remove the sickness of your loved one, passing of exam etc? if you did, then the 1st comic is true, because non believers don't pray to god for that.
An example for the 2nd one is that I have heard many believers saying that they are not having pre marital sex because they are following God's advice. For non believers, they choose not to engage in pre marital sex because they are not ready to have a baby. Thus the 2nd comic also depicts the truth.
as for the 3rd part, you have seen for yourself what Osama did.
Since this comic is purely depicting what is truly happening around us in a light hearted manner, I dont think you should have such strong reactions towards it.
I am also one of those who laughed after reading the comic. While reading it, I wasnt even bothered if God has any favouritism towards me. I read the comic and appreciate the humour behind it. But after reading your posts, all the strong, negative language used really reflects badly on you and your religion. It is telling all others that you and your religion is much too conservative that doesnt accept / is not open to any form of criticism even when it is something as minor as a comic strip.
Though i am saying this, I have many good christian friends... and they are my friends because they are not as extreme as you. Learn to accept others opinions and take that comic with a pinch of salt. If you think its not true then ignore it. There is no need to attack anyone or to defend your religion. Those who believe in your religion should already know in their heart that whatever said is not true. Those non believers basically just wanted to enjoy a good laugh and we mean no harm.
My strong reaction? which one?
I have written that while I don't find it funny I am not offended by it. Negative? The negativity is not in my sentences but it's in your head which is telling you a sincere light opinion which offers refreshing insight to the comic and the people who laugh at it is negative when it's wasn't intended to be negative.
But the reaction I'm getting is indeed negative and rude such as from laurence. I don't think you understood what I wrote at all just like laurence did not and still not I think. Read them again.
I'm an extremist? If I were an extremist more than half the world population would be religious terrorist.
Read these again, without the negativity in your mind,
The author of the comic depiction of Christian character is misleading. That is not a true Christian. But to be fair the author's depiction of the Christian in his/her comic could in all possibility contains or posseses some truth in it no matter how small. That some professed Christians are actually doing good and praying for all the wrong reasons.
However the depiction of the atheists from the author's comic is really interesting. The Atheists in the comic are viewed by God in the comic(and by the people who laugh at the comic) to be the better person. In that their mind set is actually better than some professed Christians that the author depicted in his comic.
This shows that the author and the people who laughed at the comic and who found the comic to be funny acknowlege that the atheists mind set in the comic are better and thus agree they are more favored by God than the Christian depicted in the comic. By knowing this the author and the people who laugh at the comic strip prove that they have an ideal Christian mindset. They know what pleases the Lord. And what doesn't. That is the sign of a true Christian.
So the author himself or herself and the people who laugh at the paradox of the comic could and would make a good Christians. In that they know what pleases the Lord and what doesn't.
In a negative way of speaking the comic is flawed that it depicts God to be the judge of human conduct. If the intention was to shun religious people the comic instead makes an effective tool to judge the human capacity to know what God actually wants or what is good. Being a Christian means knowing what pleases God and what doesn't.
By agreeing that the atheists in the comic stip to be the better person than the Christians depicted in the comic, the people who found it funny whether they are Christians or not or even atheist prove that they have the capacity to know what actually pleases the Lord and what doesn't. That's the trait of a true Christian, a person who has the knowledge of God.
And we are in the end judged by what we know. So the man who knows his master but decided to ignore him will be punished more severly than a man who doesn't know his master at all and did what was forbidden by his master.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:My strong reaction? which one?
I have written that while I don't find it funny I am not offended by it. Negative? The negativity is not in my sentences but it's in your head which is telling you a sincere light opinion which offers refreshing insight to the comic and the people who laugh at it is negative when it's wasn't intended to be negative.
But the reaction I'm getting is indeed negative and rude such as from laurence. I don't think you understood what I wrote at all just like laurence did not and still not I think. Read them again.
I'm an extremist? If I were an extremist more than half the world population would be religious terrorist.
Read these again, without the negativity in your mind,
The author of the comic depiction of Christian character is misleading. That is not a true Christian. But to be fair the author's depiction of the Christian in his/her comic could in all possibility contains or posseses some truth in it no matter how small. That some professed Christians are actually doing good and praying for all the wrong reasons.
However the depiction of the atheists from the author's comic is really interesting. The Atheists in the comic are viewed by God in the comic(and by the people who laugh at the comic) to be the better person. In that their mind set is actually better than some professed Christians that the author depicted in his comic.
This shows that the author and the people who laughed at the comic and who found the comic to be funny acknowlege that the atheists mind set in the comic are better and thus agree they are more favored by God than the Christian depicted in the comic. By knowing this the author and the people who laugh at the comic strip prove that they have an ideal Christian mindset. They know what pleases the Lord. And what doesn't. That is the sign of a true Christian.
So the author himself or herself and the people who laugh at the paradox of the comic could and would make a good Christians. In that they know what pleases the Lord and what doesn't.
the mindset is better?
atheist mindset is that they don't rely on God. what other conclusion can you draw from atheist mindset protrayed by the author?
Originally posted by skythewood:the mindset is better?
atheist mindset is that they don't rely on God. what other conclusion can you draw from atheist mindset protrayed by the author?
Do you want to debate what word I chose or the substance? The phrase is superficial as the sentences would make that word or phrase clear. Perhaps you would like to suggest another word for mindset? A better one? a more suitable one? Be my guess.
english is not my 1st language obviously but I believe I expressed my opinion clear enough.
Not going very much into the discussion but just a few points.
The comic focus a lot on negative views of Christians even though despite there obviously being Christians around who are not like those depicted in the comic.
Another thing is that God loves all people, believers and non-believers. He loves us all, a non-believer going to hell is not because God doesn't love them or hates them.
I suggest not going too much into this comic even if it is wrong and insensitive because there's no point.