Help me understand the denominations in Protestant churches
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Since been given a revelation of what death is( I know it was personal and I don't expect anyone to believe my experience) I've realized that now my understanding and belief of death is actually not in common with the Catholic church.
I'm not exactly thinking to go over to Protestant church(really) but now I really would like to find out about the numerous denominations of the Protestant churches to see which beliefs on death and resurrection are similar to mine.
What of importance is that I'm looking for a church which belief of death is similar or the same with mine. That people would still go to the world of the dead pending judgement. And dead people would only be raised in 2nd Christ coming and in the end of time(the last day). Judgment will occur in the last day whereby afterwards all people would either go to hell or heaven and there is no place in between. I do not view purgatory as false but purgatory is just not a permanent place. It's probably an intermediary stage for those deemed saved to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I know only a few Protestant churches believe in the descend to the world of the dead. Among those are Jehovah witness but I've read bad rumors about them. The other is the Seventh day Advent church. But again this Advent church seems to be overly confidence of their salvation and selfrighteous that they view other Christians as misguided and would not share the kingdom of heaven.
Is there any other?
Thanks
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Since been given a revelation of what death is( I know it was personal and I don't expect anyone to believe my experience) I've realized that now my understanding and belief of death is actually not in common with the Catholic church.
I'm not exactly thinking to go over to Protestant church(really) but now I really would like to find out about the numerous denominations of the Protestant churches to see which beliefs on death and resurrection are similar to mine.
What of importance is that I'm looking for a church which belief of death is similar or the same with mine. That people would still go to the world of the dead pending judgement. And dead people would only be raised in 2nd Christ coming and in the end of time(the last day). Judgment will occur in the last day whereby afterwards all people would either go to hell or heaven and there is no place in between. I do not view purgatory as false but purgatory is just not a permanent place. It's probably an intermediary stage for those deemed saved to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I know only a few Protestant churches believe in the descend to the world of the dead. Among those are Jehovah witness but I've read bad rumors about them. The other is the Seventh day Advent church. But again this Advent church seems to be overly confidence of their salvation and selfrighteous that they view other Christians as misguided and would not share the kingdom of heaven.
Is there any other?
Thanks
dear friend,
i will not be able to help u understand the diff denominations of protestantbut,i have some scriptural proof about the conditions of the dead as mentioned in the bible.i hope they will serve to let u know more about death and sin.and also unlock more knowledge from your revelation experience.
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DEATH
defination: ceasing of all functions of life. after breathing, heartbeat and brain activity stops, the life force gradually ceases to function in body cells.opposite of life.
Where are the dead?
Gen 3:19: "in the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken, for dust you are and to dust you will return."
Eccl 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
Conditions of the dead?
Eccl 9:5-6 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.
Ps 146:4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.
John 11:11-14 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."
Is there some part of man that lives on when the body dies?
Ezek 18:4 The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Isa 53:12 because he poured out his life unto death,
Are the dead able to help/harm the living in any ways?
refer to Eccl 9:6 above.
Isa 26:14 They are now dead, they live no more; those departed spirits do not rise.
the conditions of the dead are stated very clearly in the bible truth. who would want humans to believe otherwise?? im sure smart readers will know the answer.
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Hell
this word is found in many bible translations. in some translations,the word grave is found in the same verses instead or the land of the dead. hebrew wors is she'ohl and greek is hai'des, not an individual burial place but a commongrave for the dead. greek word Ge'en.na is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. however,both inside n outside christiandom,it is taught hell is a dwelling place for demons where the wicked after death will suffer some through torment.
Does the bible indicate if the dead experience pain?
ref Eccl 9:5,6 and 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
ref psl 146:4 too
Does Bible mentions what people goes to hell?
Ps 9:17..remember hell is the place of the dead..
Job 14:13 talks about job asking for protection in hell*. God himself said job was upright n righteous man.
Acts 2:25-27, david was speaking concerning jesus. the fact that Goddid not "leave" jesus in hell implies that jesus was in hell for at least awhile ya??(3days?)
there are more issues about hell..but until someone is interested and ask, i will it it as it is for now..too much info to type..
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Purgatory
according to RCC..the state, place or condition in the next world where the souls of the dead in the state of grace, but yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins already forgiven and by doing so,purified b4 going heaven. (new catholic encyclopedia)
the new catholic encyclopedia is a good book that mentions many of the catholic practices are not based on scriptural proof but on traditions.and yes purgatory is one of such tradition and not a bible teaching..
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Resurrection
A.na'sta.sis, Greek translated as resurrection. literally meaning a standing up again, ref to rising up from death.constantly used throughout the bible.any was resurrected back then for awhile.
Is resurrection a reuniting of immaterial soul with physical body?
for it to be possible,we need a physical body and an immaterial soul.do we have an immaterial soul as taught in the bible??nope..too bad then.
Who will be resurrected to share heavenly life with jesus and to do what?
Luke 12:32. it says of a lil flock..meaning not all who had faith in jesus goes up..
Rev 20:4-6 talks about thrones and people sitting upon them and judging power bestowed upon them. they are also happy n holy as they are of the 1st resurrection and the 2nd death has no hold on them.these people will be as kings and priests of God and the christ ruling with him(jesus) for 1000 years.
Jesus demostrated resurrection in john 11:11,14-44 and also Mark5:35-42.
what about people to be raised on earth?
Luke 23:43 says about a paradise.
Rev 20:12,13 talks about the dead both great n small(can mean physical size as well as status) b4 the throne and scrolls opened, also the scroll of life were opened. they will be judged then. also to raise up people to judge them and consign to a second death immediately is not only inconsistent with the bible but also a waste of time.they will instead be raised up and into perfection den judged again like wat rev says about letting loose the serpent in the abyss to try mankind again.
John 5:28 says about all in the memorial tombs will come out.
acts 24:15 mentions a resurrection of both righteous n unrighteous..
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I know only a few Protestant churches believe in the descend to the world of the dead. Among those are Jehovah witness but I've read bad rumors about them. The other is the Seventh day Advent church. But again this Advent church seems to be overly confidence of their salvation and selfrighteous that they view other Christians as misguided and would not share the kingdom of heaven.
i also heard bad rumors about JWs and 7th day, as well as the RCC and mega churches.but that didnt stop me from observing them and see which of the really apply what they teach.
disclaimer* doing what they teach may not always be right.have to depend on the stuff they teach.in a certain mega church i went before,they were teaching about accumulating material wealth instead of spiritual wealth and boy are they doing it perfectly to their own teaching.
remember that jesus himself was the object of ridicule and humiliation of the pharisees yet he showed how great a man he is by his works.
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Yea I know religions do not save you. Our denominations do not save us. That's why I haven't been thinking to go over to the Protestant church from the Roman catholics as I am now.
I've seen both Protestant and the Catholics. There are some good people in the Catholic church and some good people in the Protestant churches. But there are too some 'false' Christians in the Catholic church and some false Christians in the Protestant churches.
In any church there are always those misguided people in its congregation. What I meant by false is not sinner. We are all sinner. Yes most if not all Christians still sin. It's a fact that cannot be refuted. What I meant by false is evil. Evil Christians who love injustice, etc. LOL.
And hell is a different place imo from the world of the dead or what the Jews call sheol. There has been general misconception to equate hell with the world of the dead or the kingdom of death. They are not the same. Never were the same. Never meant to be the same place.
Hell or heaven comes after the last judgment so it is said in the bible while the descend to the kingdom of the dead comes immediately after death.
I have the knowldege of what the kingdom of death feels like but I have no idea how bad hell would be. yes the knowledge is already in the bible and I was told in quran also but I never understand it before. Perhaps I refused to understand it before.
From wikipedia-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eccl. 9:10: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [“the grave,” King James, Holy Bible Ronald Knox; “the world of the dead,” Today's English Version], the place to which you are going.”
Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts,” King James, 145:4 in Catholic Challoner-Douay; “all his thinking,” New English Bible; “plans,” Revised Standard, New American Bible] do perish.”
John 11:11-14: “‘Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.’ . . . Jesus said to them outspokenly: ‘Lazarus has died.’” (Also Psalm 13:3)
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I've written a thread on the descend to the world of the dead here in eternal hope and in the Roman catholic church forums.
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I have the knowldege of what the kingdom of death feels like but I have no idea how bad hell would be. yes the knowledge is already in the bible and I was told in quran also but I never understand it before. Perhaps I refused to understand it before.
somehow after reading this paragrapgh, i felt wat i had posted the whole wall of text is wasted..
the hell and heaven u talk about.the hell would be the 2nd death..u do know about the 2nd death right?
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Yes dommonkassyu I know about the 2nd death
Your writings are not wasted at least wholly. I read them. I disagree with some like we don't have an immaterial soul for example. Because our soul would descend to the world of the dead while our body rots in the ground or burned to ashes.
To God the dead do not really perish. Their soul do not perish but they are not enjoying life whatsoever in the world of the dead. Their soul is resting pending judgment at the last day. At least that is how I read it in the bible. In fact the soul of the dead literally takes a form of laying down as if in sleeping position(in sheol) much like the position in which they are laid inside the coffin. You can take this as only my personal opinion of course.
But they are no longer aware of themself, and that they no longer remember God(hence they can no longer pray or worship, or praising God or ask for mercy), and that they no longer able to register the passage of time.
Cheers. F1 racing is coming down in Singapore. Either you watch it or not, for many people it's holiday. Anyway it's the Moslem Ramadhan holiday season here in Indonesia. In fact it's already starting this week. happy holiday season everybody. :-)
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Whatever denomination you go to. Just be sure that the church operates in a non-cult like manner. Let me first declare that I do not believe that all Christian denominations are cults, in fact many of them are pretty helpful and very legitimate. But i've seen and heard of many seedy denominations with very cult like behavior. I'm not going to mention them by name for fear of being sued for descrimination or for disturbing religious peace.
By cult this is what i mean,- Extensive efforts to exclude followers from basic contact with non-followers
- Extraction of funds/donations as a condition for their brand of salvation
- Coersion to take extrodinary efforts in procuring funds for donations to the cult i.e. Forced to take Loans, take Morgages, sell property.
- Extensive guilt trip for failure of either or both of the above points
Everyone wants to find a comfort group and most find this in religion. But do not be blinded by evil efforts disguise behind the name of religion and prey on the weak in spirit.
Just in case anyone is wondering, I'm born Catholic and although i am rather lapsed at most times, i do not view the church as a cult as the church has only taught me how to interact with non-Catholics with the decency and honor as any other regular human being. That and i have never been coerced into giving money; i only give what i can and sometimes i don't give anything at all.
Again, that is not to say that other non-Catholic christian denominations are cults. Most are very fine and life helping religions.Just watch out for the cults and take care.
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Thanks for the warning sleepy mosquito. Yes I have no intention of joining any cult.
I have no intention of leaving the Catholic church but I'm wondering which decent church hold death and ressurection as I do. It seems I have trouble finding one which is not occult-like. The most decent I've found is the 7th day Advent but they too think only their denomination will be saved. How disappointing.
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Originally posted by Sleepy Mosquito: i only give what i can and sometimes i don't give anything at all.
Hey that sounded just like me LOL
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Originally posted by Sleepy Mosquito:
Whatever denomination you go to. Just be sure that the church operates in a non-cult like manner. Let me first declare that I do not believe that all Christian denominations are cults, in fact many of them are pretty helpful and very legitimate. But i've seen and heard of many seedy denominations with very cult like behavior. I'm not going to mention them by name for fear of being sued for descrimination or for disturbing religious peace.
By cult this is what i mean,- Extensive efforts to exclude followers from basic contact with non-followers
- Extraction of funds/donations as a condition for their brand of salvation
- Coersion to take extrodinary efforts in procuring funds for
donations to the cult i.e. Forced to take Loans, take Morgages,
sell property.
- Extensive guilt trip for failure of either or both of the above points
Everyone wants to find a comfort group and most find this in religion. But do not be blinded by evil efforts disguise behind the name of religion and prey on the weak in spirit.
Just in case anyone is wondering, I'm born Catholic and although i am rather lapsed at most times, i do not view the church as a cult as the church has only taught me how to interact with non-Catholics with the decency and honor as any other regular human being. That and i have never been coerced into giving money; i only give what i can and sometimes i don't give anything at all.
Again, that is not to say that other
non-Catholic christian denominations are cults. Most are very fine
and life helping religions.Just watch out for the cults and take care.
woah..sounds damn familiar..lol
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you may want to take a look at the website of my church:
http://www.tjc.org/landing.aspx
From your posts, I'm not too sure what your belief of death is. But as believers of God, we should form our beliefs solely from His word (the bible).
God bless.
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
Purgatory
according to RCC..the state, place or condition in the next world where the souls of the dead in the state of grace, but yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins already forgiven and by doing so,purified b4 going heaven. (new catholic encyclopedia)
the new catholic encyclopedia is a good book that mentions many of the catholic practices are not based on scriptural proof but on traditions.and yes purgatory is one of such tradition and not a bible teaching..
Truth is revealed to us through the bible and the teachings of the Church (ie: what we call Tradition with a capital 'T'. We need to differentiate this from worship practices etc which is tradition with a small 't').
The two do not conflict, meaning that the bible does not contradict Catholic teachings, including purgatory, in any way and in fact supports and alludes to it, except that the term 'purgatory' is not used. We can discuss this further at a later time if necessary but let's sort out the other issues you have with Catholic Christian teachings in your other thread on the 'Holy Cross' first, before we move on.
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Scripture is the Queen of Sacred Tradition.
Ancient Christians all alude to this practice unlike the man-made practise of Scripture Alone where the each person is a 'super-pope'.
"Heretics assent neither to Scripture nor to Tradition." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3,2,1 (inter A.D. 180/199).
"We do not take our scriptural teaching from the parables but we interpret the parables according to our teaching." Tertullian, Purity 9,1 (c. A.D. 200).
They condemned the Protestant teachings as well -
"But after him (the devil) and with him are all inventors of unlawful heresies, who indeed refer to the Scriptures, but do not hold such opinions as the saints have handed down, and receiving them as the traditions of men, err, because they do not rightly know them nor their power" Athanasius, Festal Letter 2 (c. A.D. 350
'He who does not believe according to the tradition of the Catholic Church is an unbeliever.' John Damascus, Letter to the Nestorians (c. A.D. 745).
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Originally posted by seekingtruth:
From your posts, I'm not too sure what your belief of death is. But as believers of God, we should form our beliefs solely from His word (the bible).
God bless.
Thanks for the link. Yes of course I base my belief on the bible.
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Originally posted by Omnia:
We can discuss this further at a later time if necessary but let's sort out the other issues you have with Catholic Christian teachings in your other thread on the 'Holy Cross' first, before we move on.
My other thread is about death and resurrection according to the bible.
You see I tried to be logical and patient when explaining myself because I am sincere but the people who argued with me gave no attention to my logical argument and proceeded to give their opinions so we never clicked. I'm tired arguing with people who are either not sincere in communicating(it's 2 ways afterall), not knowledgeable in the scripture, fanatical about a church organization.
I believe religions do not save. It's not religion which saves people's soul.
Saul was a religious man who prosecuted the early Christians(though they didn't call themselves that then) because of his blind conviction. His religion was not at fault but his conviction was. Had God not blinded him he would not be counted among those saved though he was a religious man. Saul was religious but he didn't know God unlike Paul. So if you think you are religious ask yourself do you know God?
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
My other thread is about death and resurrection according to the bible.
You see I tried to be logical and patient when explaining myself because I am sincere but the people who argued with me gave no attention to my logical argument and proceeded to give their opinions so we never clicked. I'm tired arguing with people who are either not sincere in communicating(it's 2 ways afterall), not knowledgeable in the scripture, fanatical about a church organization.
I believe religions do not save. It's not religion which saves people's soul.
Saul was a religious man who prosecuted the early Christians(though they didn't call themselves that then) because of his blind conviction. His religion was not at fault but his conviction was. Had God not blinded him he would not be counted among those saved though he was a religious man. Saul was religious but he didn't know God unlike Paul. So if you think you are religious ask yourself do you know God?
I assume by religion, you refer to the Church and its worship practices.
I fully agree with you that ultimately, it is Jesus who is our salvation. We need to know him and live the kind of life that he wants us to lead if we are to enter the kingdom of heaven. It is pointless for a Christian to memorise the entire bible, pray from dawn till dusk and go for communion thrice a day if he/she does not have a heart for Jesus and instead live like a rascal.
But how do we get to know Jesus and find out how he wants us to live ? As Catholic Christians, the answer lies in the bible and the teachings of the Catholic Church.
So I agree that religion itself does not save but religion is certainly not a bar to salvation. On the contrary, Jesus established the Church to guide us in our earthly journey towards eternal life (heaven). God has given us many gifts through the Church, such as the sacraments of baptism, reconciliation, communion, confirmation, matrimony, holy orders and annointing of the sick.
Do I think I'm religious ? If by that you mean walking perfectly in God's ways, I have a long long way to go. I often disappoint God with my sinful ways but I also know that he will always be there to forgive and welcome me back into his arms if I repent and truly have a change of heart.
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Originally posted by Omnia:
I assume by religion, you refer to the Church and its worship practices.
I fully agree with you that ultimately, it is Jesus who is our salvation. We need to know him and live the kind of life that he wants us to lead if we are to enter the kingdom of heaven. It is pointless for a Christian to memorise the entire bible, pray from dawn till dusk and go for communion thrice a day if he/she does not have a heart for Jesus and instead live like a rascal.
But how do we get to know Jesus and find out how he wants us to live ? As Catholic Christians, the answer lies in the bible and the teachings of the Catholic Church.
So I agree that religion itself does not save but religion is certainly not a bar to salvation. On the contrary, Jesus established the Church to guide us in our earthly journey towards eternal life (heaven). God has given us many gifts through the Church, such as the sacraments of baptism, reconciliation, communion, confirmation, matrimony, holy orders and annointing of the sick.
Do I think I'm religious ? If by that you mean walking perfectly in God's ways, I have a long long way to go. I often disappoint God with my sinful ways but I also know that he will always be there to forgive and welcome me back into his arms if I repent and truly have a change of heart.
Yes Omnia while religions s do not save they are certainly not a bar to salvation.
I didn't mean walking perfectly in God's way. If God waited for us to be perfect before becoming involved in our life then no one single man could ever hope to get to know God because men are too imperfect.The keyword for God is Immanuel that is God who is with us.
If somebody asked us or any Christians what our parent is like certainly we would be able to describe them quite well. Though we are not our parent but we do know them.
The same when somebody asked a Christian what our God is like. Ideally all Christian should be able to answer not just through reading the bible but also from our own experience of following Jesus in our life. The thing with Saul is that he was a religious man who probably memorize the torah but apart from memorizing the torah Saul had never known God, he didn't know that prosecuting fellow men were wrong. When Saul became Paul the difference is that Paul knows what God is like.
The bible contains testimonies that leads to promises to God's promises to whoever that believe in him. Knowing God's promises and walking in God's promises are two different things. even knowing the promises and really believing in them are also two different things.
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Yes Omnia while religions s do not save they are certainly not a bar to salvation.
I didn't mean walking perfectly in God's way. If God waited for us to be perfect before becoming involved in our life then no one single man could ever hope to get to know God because men are too imperfect.The keyword for God is Immanuel that is God who is with us.
If somebody asked us or any Christians what our parent is like certainly we would be able to describe them quite well. Though we are not our parent but we do know them.
The same when somebody asked a Christian what our God is like. Ideally all Christian should be able to answer not just through reading the bible but also from our own experience of following Jesus in our life. The thing with Saul is that he was a religious man who probably memorize the torah but apart from memorizing the torah Saul had never known God, he didn't know that prosecuting fellow men were wrong. When Saul became Paul the difference is that Paul knows what God is like.
The bible contains testimonies that leads to promises to God's promises to whoever that believe in him. Knowing God's promises and walking in God's promises are two different things. even knowing the promises and really believing in them are also two different things.
Agreed. It is not sufficient to just know what the bible says or what the Church teaches. We have to live it as well.