Originally posted by Honeybunz:oh? something like the Catholic Mass and the Presbyterian Church Service?
There are also many songs sang at praise and worship before talks or events that are very nice.....
And Novena hyms are very good too....I think dumbdumb will like those...except "Ave Maria" perhaps for the time being.......
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:There are also many songs sang at praise and worship before talks or events that are very nice.....
And Novena hyms are very good too....I think dumbdumb will like those...except "Ave Maria" perhaps for the time being.......
i attended the catholic choir performance. apparently it's the creme ala creme.
the singing was good, but alot of the songs are too... unknown for me alr.
i've been to novena, didn't like the experience.
and i'll never like ave maria =P nothing personal, but music to me, must have a certain tune to strike a chord with me
and besides. i'm coming to understand it is ok to respect mary (coming from a charismatic background where she is totally unheard of), like i respect a self sacrificing missionary etc. but i think there's a delicate balance between respect and attributing divinity. =)
Originally posted by Honeybunz:oh? something like the Catholic Mass and the Presbyterian Church Service?
actually. i enjoyed the anglican service more. don't get me wrong, i think.. it's up to my mood. sometimes i like songs which are abit "war-cry", songs like - this is how we overcome, or i've got the joy, exaltation songs such as - Blessed be the name, no other name etc.
because sometimes i feel really down and frustrated, singing out really loud helps relieve me of that burden.
but my nature is that i've always enjoyed worship more than praise, and i quite enjoyed the peace and serenity of quiet worship too.
last week for some reason, i couldn't concentrate at worship, i think it was the lack of sleep, and the songs were so jumpy and all, and i was getting a headache. but it doesn't really matter what style of worship it is, after all, worship isn't about us, it's about God.
there is no "right" form of worship - since we are worshipping in spirit and in truth.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:there is no "right" form of worship - since we are worshipping in spirit and in truth.
actually there is.... the right form of worship is when God is praised.... and the focus is on God....
not saying that modern instrument is wrong, but sometimes the focus of such worship shifts to the worship leader.... and subsequently the worship leader become a pop star....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
actually there is.... the right form of worship is when God is praised.... and the focus is on God....not saying that modern instrument is wrong, but sometimes the focus of such worship shifts to the worship leader.... and subsequently the worship leader become a pop star....
lol that goes without saying.
what i meant was - i don't think quiet worship is better than noisy worship, and vice versa.
there used to be those kinda arguments where, this form is wrong, that form is wrong, quiet is better, noisy is better..
i can only speak from experience, but, i don't think anyone really worships the worship leader la. what u said is just what you think might happen, but i really don't think it happens.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:lol that goes without saying.
what i meant was - i don't think quiet worship is better than noisy worship, and vice versa.
there used to be those kinda arguments where, this form is wrong, that form is wrong, quiet is better, noisy is better..
i can only speak from experience, but, i don't think anyone really worships the worship leader la. what u said is just what you think might happen, but i really don't think it happens.
i've heard comments like, "so and so is such a great worship leader blah blah blah...."
perhaps the phrase "worship the worship leader" is not as accurate as I wanted it to be.... maybe it's "idolising the worship leader" like folks "idolising some pastors"... like they can do no wrong.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i've heard comments like, "so and so is such a great worship leader blah blah blah...."perhaps the phrase "worship the worship leader" is not as accurate as I wanted it to be.... maybe it's "idolising the worship leader" like folks "idolising some pastors"... like they can do no wrong.
hmm. so.. praising and encouraging someone who did a good job in a ministry is wrong?
i think it's all about the context of the praise la.
there's a difference between
"that fellow did a great job at worship today, God blessed him/her with a wonderful voice"
and
"OMG~! IT'S SUN HO... AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH~~~!!!"
*faints*
haha.. like they can do no wrong.. like.. the pope...? =x
i go chc.. but i hate sun ho...
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:haha.. like they can do no wrong.. like.. the pope...? =x
The Pope is just the head of the Church and he is really another priest. Of course he can do wrong as past Popes had.....they are human.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i attended the catholic choir performance. apparently it's the creme ala creme.
the singing was good, but alot of the songs are too... unknown for me alr.
i've been to novena, didn't like the experience.
and i'll never like ave maria =P nothing personal, but music to me, must have a certain tune to strike a chord with me
and besides. i'm coming to understand it is ok to respect mary (coming from a charismatic background where she is totally unheard of), like i respect a self sacrificing missionary etc. but i think there's a delicate balance between respect and attributing divinity. =)
Should try go to the Cathedral as the choir there is the best. They are called the Cathedral choir of the Risen Christ though I have not been there myself....
The songs are new to you because you have only recently open your heart to hear them out....but listen hard to the words....
Ave Maria is a beautiful songs performed by many great artist past, present and I know for sure future.....
As for Novena, you need to know what it is about and I do know it may not be easy for you (knowing a little of your background) because you need some explanations in order to know what it is about and what they are doing etc....but leave that to later cause the important issue is the Mass and understanding what the Catholic Church is preaching and DOING.....first.
Novena is not a must and not going does not make you a lesser Catholic. Knowing what it is will make you want to go.......
No matter what, it's a good start for you and hope you have a plesant journey on discovery....like I said before, even if you finally cannot accept it, you will at least know why....
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:lol that goes without saying.
what i meant was - i don't think quiet worship is better than noisy worship, and vice versa.
there used to be those kinda arguments where, this form is wrong, that form is wrong, quiet is better, noisy is better..
i can only speak from experience, but, i don't think anyone really worships the worship leader la. what u said is just what you think might happen, but i really don't think it happens.
I think singing is just prasing God and worshipping (like prayer) should be done is silence and at least not shouting and screaming......
Like a teenager (puberty perhaps) shouting out to rock stars etc...
Originally posted by [J]erry:i go chc.. but i hate sun ho...
Try goinng to another church (the main stream ones) and you may start to hate CHC too.....
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:hmm. so.. praising and encouraging someone who did a good job in a ministry is wrong?
i think it's all about the context of the praise la.
there's a difference between
"that fellow did a great job at worship today, God blessed him/her with a wonderful voice"
and
"OMG~! IT'S SUN HO... AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH~~~!!!"
*faints*
haha.. like they can do no wrong.. like.. the pope...? =x
hey don't put words in my mouth.... I did not say praising someone for a job well done is wrong....
i am saying that undue elevation of a worship leader to the level of a celebrity is quite questionable.
... were you following the saga of my criticism of ho yeow sun (years back) and how some forummers attempted to defend her as if she (and her church) is always correct?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:hey don't put words in my mouth.... I did not say praising someone for a job well done is wrong....
i am saying that undue elevation of a worship leader to the level of a celebrity is quite questionable.
... were you following the saga of my criticism of ho yeow sun (years back) and how some forummers attempted to defend her as if she (and her church) is always correct?
Dude, my ex colleague attends the church. He is not really happy worshipping there. I was told that the church makes use of the worship time to advertise ho yeow sun's new release CDs and the churchgoers are asked to buy at least 10 or 13 pieces of it. He is pissed off that the church keeps preaching on giving $$$.
It is not biblical to elevate a worship leader to the level of celebrity.
Originally posted by Fantagf:Dude, my ex colleague attends the church. He is not really happy worshipping there. I was told that the church makes use of the worship time to advertise ho yeow sun's new release CDs and the churchgoers are asked to buy at least 10 or 13 pieces of it. He is pissed off that the church keeps preaching on giving $$$.
It is not biblical to elevate a worship leader to the level of celebrity.
I have been there for a while but never seen that (advertise ho yeow sun's new release CDs and the churchgoers are asked to buy at least 10 or 13 pieces of it) happening ..... maybe I am lucky....but they do give away a free CD for new comer and in it, KH introduces an international artist that God has gifted with a beautiful voice to sing a song and of course, you know who that singer is.....
I always wonder CHC, NCC etc....are really worshipping God. Yes, they keep talking about God and quoting Bible but the context?
I think it is more about the "self proclaimed pastor" and what he thinks of the Bible and God......and yes, their need to feel like a celebrity so that they can sell books, cds, seminars, talks etc.....and make more $$$$$
I understand that there are a few newer ones that is following the footstep of these so called mega churches way....and even 1 who intend to start a cyber church because he wants to be rich! So discern and becareful which church you go to.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I have been there for a while but never seen that happening.....maybe I am lucky....but they do give away a free CD for new comer and in it, KH introduces an international artist that God has gifted with a beautiful voice to sing a song and of course, you know who that singer is.....
ha ha international artist.... that's so humble.... singing about China Wine....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
ha ha international artist.... that's so humble.... singing about China Wine....
"Pastor" leh...so must be humble mah......what is this China Wine thing?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:"Pastor" leh...so must be humble mah......what is this China Wine thing?
just google "China Wine" and you will know what I am talking about.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I think it is more about the "self proclaimed pastor" and what he thinks of the Bible and God......and yes, their need to feel like a celebrity so that they can sell books, cds, seminars, talks etc.....and make more $$$$$
I understand that there are a few newer ones that is following the footstep of these so called mega churches way....and even 1 who intend to start a cyber church because he wants to be rich! So discern and becareful which church you go to.....
... a sucker is born every minute.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
just google "China Wine" and you will know what I am talking about.
OIC......you should know that I am no fans of Sun by now and what a role model we have here.....wife of a "pastor" and "pastor" herself......
Originally posted by Chin Eng:hey don't put words in my mouth.... I did not say praising someone for a job well done is wrong....
i am saying that undue elevation of a worship leader to the level of a celebrity is quite questionable.
... were you following the saga of my criticism of ho yeow sun (years back) and how some forummers attempted to defend her as if she (and her church) is always correct?
haha i don't remember every issue =x no i think i forgotten alr.
tts why i said, it's all about the context of the recognision of the worship leader. =)
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
ha ha international artist.... that's so humble.... singing about China Wine....
lol, the song's really.. funny kinda
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I have been there for a while but never seen that (advertise ho yeow sun's new release CDs and the churchgoers are asked to buy at least 10 or 13 pieces of it) happening ..... maybe I am lucky....but they do give away a free CD for new comer and in it, KH introduces an international artist that God has gifted with a beautiful voice to sing a song and of course, you know who that singer is.....
I always wonder CHC, NCC etc....are really worshipping God. Yes, they keep talking about God and quoting Bible but the context?
I think it is more about the "self proclaimed pastor" and what he thinks of the Bible and God......and yes, their need to feel like a celebrity so that they can sell books, cds, seminars, talks etc.....and make more $$$$$
I understand that there are a few newer ones that is following the footstep of these so called mega churches way....and even 1 who intend to start a cyber church because he wants to be rich! So discern and becareful which church you go to.....
hmm i don't goto NCC, but i agree that alot of people don't realise how great the grace of God is (within context)
and i believe that people change, not because of rules imposed on them telling them they must do good etc.. but because they experience the grace of God, and that changes the perception of themselves, which changes them, which makes them a better person. NCC advocates tt, and i think tts great.
CHC, is another matter haha
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:hmm i don't goto NCC, but i agree that alot of people don't realise how great the grace of God is (within context)
and i believe that people change, not because of rules imposed on them telling them they must do good etc.. but because they experience the grace of God, and that changes the perception of themselves, which changes them, which makes them a better person. NCC advocates tt, and i think tts great.
CHC, is another matter haha
I don't go to NCC too but have friends who do.....and their grace is not what you think it is. Got money means got grace, no money, no got grace.
No grace means never tithe or never tithe enough, not enough faith.....tithe and give more and grace or rather money will come.....because god wants you to be rich just like how he made me (the pastor) prosperous.....
They says believe right and live right and yet, look at the korean styled self proclaimed pastor and I wonder how he even remotely resemble any of the apostles and their followers.... let alone Jesus.
The guy whom I says wanted to start a cyber church used to go to NCC and now stopped because he no longer wants to be the punter (hopping to get rich) but he wants to be the bookie (the one who really got rich). He hope that setting up a cyber church can make him a "pastor" and he can start collecting tithes and being on line make his market global.
and why worry if that is right or wrong? Grace means no condemnation and all sins, past, present and future are forgiven by Christ's death on the Cross....so you are righteous already just do whatever you like....it's ok no sweat cause you are saved liao and confirm go heaven one....
so you see....belive right and you will live right......
In my opinion, they are not much different from CHC
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I don't go to NCC too but have friends who do.....and their grace is not what you think it is. Got money means got grace, no money, no got grace.
No grace means never tithe or never tithe enough, not enough faith.....tithe and give more and grace or rather money will come.....because god wants you to be rich just like how he made me (the pastor) prosperous.....
They says believe right and live right and yet, look at the korean styled self proclaimed pastor and I wonder how he even remotely resemble any of the apostles and their followers.... let alone Jesus.
The guy whom I says wanted to start a cyber church used to go to NCC and now stopped because he no longer wants to be the punter (hopping to get rich) but he wants to be the bookie (the one who really got rich). He hope that setting up a cyber church can make him a "pastor" and he can start collecting tithes and being on line make his market global.
and why worry if that is right or wrong? Grace means no condemnation and all sins, past, present and future are forgiven by Christ's death on the Cross....so you are righteous already just do whatever you like....it's ok no sweat cause you are saved liao and confirm go heaven one....
so you see....belive right and you will live right......
In my opinion, they are not much different from CHC
no leh. my understanding about grace came from NCC, though not directly.
previously, i led quite a burdened life, always thinking God's gonna be pissed at me etc, because i keep doing wrong things. I even pray before, right before the exam, i'd pray to God telling Him that i didn't sin today, so please let me pass the exams etc, and even prayed that God can take away some of my riches in heaven if i pass this exam etc. if anything bad happened to me, i felt that it must be some kind of karma of sort, or God punishing me for something i did etc.
that's how immatured i was, until i understood how much God loves me, that while i was his enemy, while i was depraved and while i hated him, He left all that is good in heaven, and came to this broken world just for me.
tts only because someone explained what grace really is to me. it doesn't make me less.. sensitive to sin, i still know what's right and wrong, and i still choose to do right, but for the right reasons now. not because i fear i'd get punished, but because i love God back for He loves me first. that's why i said, good works is a fruit which bore from God's love, and not part of attaining salvation.
imho