City Harvest Church?
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Its called Delusion. A feel good gospel without any truths. A distorted version to suit kong's own ideals
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Originally posted by bored`:
Its called Delusion. A feel good gospel without any truths. A distorted version to suit kong's own ideals
are you sure that the message:
"In whatever situation you are in, God loves you, He will see you through, trust Him"
has no truth at all? quote me a verse that suggests that God doesn't care about our welbeing, that He doesn't love us, or care when we're going through a bad time, that He's not trustworthy
the gospel is called the Good News. It's hard, if not impossible to preach a feel-bad gospel.
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Show me a verse in the bible which explicity talks about money
Please google the word 'prosperity gospel' and tell me what you think.
Pastors like kong hee tell his audience what they want to hear and make them feel good like a motivational seminar. But he does not preach the truth which is the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
kong hee preaches a gospel of the world not the gospel of God.
He picks out verses which are easy to manipulate to suit his own ideas and leaves out verses which contradict them.
any gospel which cannot be applied in a third world country is not biblical.
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http://wordnverse.com/2008/01/06/non-biblical-teachings-of-kong-hee-city-harvest-church/
Please ask your cell group leader to read this.
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Originally posted by bored`:
Show me a verse in the bible which explicity talks about money
Please google the word 'prosperity gospel' and tell me what you think.
Pastors like kong hee tell his audience what they want to hear and make them feel good like a motivational seminar. But he does not preach the truth which is the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
kong hee preaches a gospel of the world not the gospel of God.
He picks out verses which are easy to manipulate to suit his own ideas and leaves out verses which contradict them.
any gospel which cannot be applied in a third world country is not biblical.
hmm, ok, so what do you mean by truth? and u hvn't told me, is it biblically wrong if the msg essentially says
"In whatever situation you are in, God loves you, He will see you through, trust Him"
i haven't been to chc for a really long time, so ya, you might want to elaborate more on your personal experience rather than quotes from a website.
as for a verse about money, i'm not sure if this sounds pathetic, but there's no specific quote about the Holy Trinity either.
But the bible does speak alot about God's abundant provision, would that count as "money"?
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Question: "What does the Bible say about the prosperity gospel?"
Answer: In the prosperity gospel, also known as the “Word of Faith,” the believer is told to use God, whereas the truth of biblical Christianity is just the opposite—God uses the believer. Word Faith or prosperity theology sees the Holy Spirit as a power to be put to use for whatever the believer wills. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person who enables the believer to do God's will. The prosperity gospel movement closely resembles some of the destructive greed sects that infiltrated the early church. Paul and the other apostles were not accommodating to or conciliatory with the false teachers who propagated such heresy. They identified them as dangerous false teachers and urged Christians to avoid them.
Paul warned Timothy about “constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.... But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.” (1 Timothy 6:5, 9-11.)
Paul said covetousness is idolatry (Ephesians 5:5) and instructed the Ephesians to avoid anyone who brought a message of immorality or covetousness (Ephesians 5:6-7). Prosperity teaching prohibits God from working on His own, meaning that God is not Lord of all because He cannot work until we release Him to do so. Faith, according to the Word of Faith doctrine, is not submissive trust in God; faith is a formula by which we manipulate the spiritual laws prosperity teachers believe govern the universe. As in the name “Word of Faith” implies, this movement teaches that faith is a matter of what we say more than who we trust or what truths we embrace and affirm in our hearts.
A favorite term in the Word of Faith movement is “positive confession.” It refers to the teaching that words have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your confessions, especially the favors you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer (as though man could require anything of God!). Thus God's ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith. James 4:13-16 clearly contradicts this teaching, “Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that. But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.”
Far from stressing the importance of wealth, the Bible warns against pursuing it. Believers, especially leaders in the church (1 Timothy 3:3), are to be free from the love of money (Hebrews 13:5). The love of money leads to all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus warned, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions” (Luke 12:15). In sharp contrast to the Word of Faith emphasis on gaining money and possessions in this life, Jesus said “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal” (Matthew 6:19). The irreconcilable contradiction between prosperity teaching gospel and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is best summed up in the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:24, “You cannot serve God and riches.” -
CHC has an online TV netcast of their service and preaching..... judge for yourselves... don't anyhow anyhow say bad things about people/churches or you will suffer the consequences.
I ask you to tune in and judge for yourselves because this thread made me tune in and they seemed nothing like the negative comments here.
http://www.cityharvest.tv/default.htm
(can't say the same about the church that proudly admitted and proclaimed they are a prosperity church at Suntec Rock Auditorium)
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The church is not impt just an external facade....most impt focuss on Jesus and U'll be saved..I'm disgusted with CHC because they made use of church fund to invest enbloc and make personal gains...hope I'm wrong..sori not meant to antagonise members here
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Originally posted by bored`:
Question: "What does the Bible say about the prosperity gospel?"
Answer: In the prosperity gospel, also known as the “Word of Faith,” the believer is told to use God, whereas the truth of biblical Christianity is just the opposite—God uses the believer. Word Faith or prosperity theology sees the Holy Spirit as a power to be put to use for whatever the believer wills. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person who enables the believer to do God's will. The prosperity gospel movement closely resembles some of the destructive greed sects that infiltrated the early church. Paul and the other apostles were not accommodating to or conciliatory with the false teachers who propagated such heresy. They identified them as dangerous false teachers and urged Christians to avoid them.
Paul warned Timothy about “constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.... But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.” (1 Timothy 6:5, 9-11.)
Paul said covetousness is idolatry (Ephesians 5:5) and instructed the Ephesians to avoid anyone who brought a message of immorality or covetousness (Ephesians 5:6-7). Prosperity teaching prohibits God from working on His own, meaning that God is not Lord of all because He cannot work until we release Him to do so. Faith, according to the Word of Faith doctrine, is not submissive trust in God; faith is a formula by which we manipulate the spiritual laws prosperity teachers believe govern the universe. As in the name “Word of Faith” implies, this movement teaches that faith is a matter of what we say more than who we trust or what truths we embrace and affirm in our hearts.
A favorite term in the Word of Faith movement is “positive confession.” It refers to the teaching that words have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your confessions, especially the favors you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer (as though man could require anything of God!). Thus God's ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith. James 4:13-16 clearly contradicts this teaching, “Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that. But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.”
Far from stressing the importance of wealth, the Bible warns against pursuing it. Believers, especially leaders in the church (1 Timothy 3:3), are to be free from the love of money (Hebrews 13:5). The love of money leads to all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus warned, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions” (Luke 12:15). In sharp contrast to the Word of Faith emphasis on gaining money and possessions in this life, Jesus said “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal” (Matthew 6:19). The irreconcilable contradiction between prosperity teaching gospel and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is best summed up in the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:24, “You cannot serve God and riches.”ah i understand.
the impt part is that God uses the believer, and not the believer "uses" God.
but one thing i think u should understand.. God is sovereign.. Nobody uses Him, He does as He pleases. He blesses who He wish to bless, nothing changes that, even if we're children of God.
but the fact still stand is this, the message that God loves us, and it wouldn't matter how bad the situation, God will supply our needs, God will give us everything we need to see through our bad situations - is a good message.
God gave us His son, while we were still sinners, what good things wouldn't He keep from us.
If God feels that some believers may not be ready for great wealth, I know He will withhold it from them until the time is right, when the believer is ready to be responsible and be a good steward.
I agree, the love of money is evil, but money isn't. God blessed so many ppl in the bible with riches. And the thing about riches is - Paul says that it's important to know how to live when you're rich, and how to live when you're poor. My family isn't exactly rich, but we're doing pretty well, and my dad is so fired up about God, that he's always using money to hold alpha gatherings. Being rich isn't a bad thing. But we must have the right attitude to riches. Would CHC be doing a better (morally) job by not preaching about God's blessing.
I'm not sure how else they should preach - either by avoiding the topic about God's blessings on finances altogether, or preaching that it's not right to be rich.
Either way, it would seem wrong.
in the end, it's about your perspective of God, who do you see God as, a loving Father, who does what is best for His children, an everpresent help in trouble, who blesses and blesses abundantly, or a taskmaster who withholds good things from His children. I'm not sure what chc preaches exactly, but I've got a friend from there, and apparently he lives life with so much joy and positiveness. I'm sure God did that. And that's what the Gospel does, what Jesus did to bring to each and every one of us.
One clue I think helps to see if a message's effect on the believer is good or bad is to see how someone from chc prays for someone who is in financial need (of course, it's also impt to act upon that prayer)
do they pray that the ppl be rich, or do they pray that God will meet their needs, where is the focus in their prayers, God, or material wealth? The Giver or the gifts.
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Originally posted by bored`:
http://wordnverse.com/2008/01/06/non-biblical-teachings-of-kong-hee-city-harvest-church/
Please ask your cell group leader to read this.
haha. nah, firstly, because we're not part of chc, we aren't affected and we don't want to judge wrongly.
and my cgl already said that God is more concerned with our holiness than our happiness, and we agreed that if a message brings hope to a person, and draws them closer to Jesus, it is a good message.
decern before accepting
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no money how how to build a church
no money where to buy things for the poor
no money how to bless one another
no money then eat grass ar?
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Originally posted by noahnoah:
no money how how to build a church
no money where to buy things for the poor
no money how to bless one another
no money then eat grass ar?
it's all about the attitude towards riches la. Jesus is against coveting what isn't yours, and self reliance, but not about being rich, or seeking blessing.
if i understand, coveting means desiring to possess what belongs to others?
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I recently attended a sermon being preached by Kong hee in Sydney CHC at Leichardt in Australia and while he came across as honest and insightful his account of how a suposed Japanese scientents (Dr Emoto) left me with a few question marks in my mind. Hee had given a lengthy account of how this guy (who supposedly was not even a Christian) did experiments to show that water whih was exposed to positive words, prayer and even thoughts, prior to being frozen exhibited beautiful crystal formations when examined under a microscope upon freezing. Hee went on to state that water samples that were subjected to heavy metal music, negative words and yes... even negative thoughts... all exhibted lifeless/visually unpleasant formations when examined upon being frozen. Kong Hee then went on to summise that because we as humans are largely made up of water our makeup and life in turn can be positvely affected by prayer and positve thinking. What Kong Hee failed to mention are the following four points.
1) Dr Emoto is not a qualified scientist, instead only having a qaulification as a "Doctor of Alternative Medicine from the Open International University for Alternative Medicine in India, an unaccredited institute with minimal academic requirements.
2) His experiments have never appeared in any peer (by peer I mean other real scientists) reviewed scientific journals....this is the standard acid test for any new (and real) scientific claims.
3)Emoto has never followed established scientific guidelines for his experiments (he admited as much himself, in an interview with the Maui News); instead, it seems he allows his photographers to pick single crystals that seem to support his conclusions, ignoring those that might not...bear in mind that a SINGLE sample upon freezing may exhibit a VARIERTY of crystal formation types.
4) Emoto has made significant efforts to profit from his supposed "findings" through travelling shows, merchandising etc indicating a desire to profit rather than substantiate his claims by having the results replicated by other (real) scientists.
These points above demostrate that the account given by Hee is at best highly questionable and at worst completely fraudulent. While the power and need for positive thinking is well documented and one that I agree with, coupling this with false claims and hope is wrong and potentially dangerous.
I also note that "Dr" Kong Hee himself is not qualified medical doctor as per the normal use of such a name prefix, instead he has a doctorate of theology ...I find this rather misleading note that other American preachers who made a name for themselves have similarly purported the misleading title of Dr in order to portray a greater sense of knowledge and authority. One person who comes to mind is a "Dr Hovind" an American preacher who claimed to have proof that the earth is 6000 years old...he is now serving a 10 year prision sentence in the US for ..you guessed it..fraud!The value of CHC as a centre for Christian understanding and worship is for others to decide but I personally won't be going back. Too much emphasis on money and very little else. -
Originally posted by Anton.myer:I recently attended a sermon being preached by Kong hee in Sydney CHC at Leichardt in Australia and while he came across as honest and insightful his account of how a suposed Japanese scientents (Dr Emoto) left me with a few question marks in my mind. Hee had given a lengthy account of how this guy (who supposedly was not even a Christian) did experiments to show that water whih was exposed to positive words, prayer and even thoughts, prior to being frozen exhibited beautiful crystal formations when examined under a microscope upon freezing. Hee went on to state that water samples that were subjected to heavy metal music, negative words and yes... even negative thoughts... all exhibted lifeless/visually unpleasant formations when examined upon being frozen. Kong Hee then went on to summise that because we as humans are largely made up of water our makeup and life in turn can be positvely affected by prayer and positve thinking. What Kong Hee failed to mention are the following four points.
1) Dr Emoto is not a qualified scientist, instead only having a qaulification as a "Doctor of Alternative Medicine from the Open International University for Alternative Medicine in India, an unaccredited institute with minimal academic requirements.
2) His experiments have never appeared in any peer (by peer I mean other real scientists) reviewed scientific journals....this is the standard acid test for any new (and real) scientific claims.
3)Emoto has never followed established scientific guidelines for his experiments (he admited as much himself, in an interview with the Maui News); instead, it seems he allows his photographers to pick single crystals that seem to support his conclusions, ignoring those that might not...bear in mind that a SINGLE sample upon freezing may exhibit a VARIERTY of crystal formation types.
4) Emoto has made significant efforts to profit from his supposed "findings" through travelling shows, merchandising etc indicating a desire to profit rather than substantiate his claims by having the results replicated by other (real) scientists.
These points above demostrate that the account given by Hee is at best highly questionable and at worst completely fraudulent. While the power and need for positive thinking is well documented and one that I agree with, coupling this with false claims and hope is wrong and potentially dangerous.
I also note that "Dr" Kong Hee himself is not qualified medical doctor as per the normal use of such a name prefix, instead he has a doctorate of theology ...I find this rather misleading note that other American preachers who made a name for themselves have similarly purported the misleading title of Dr in order to portray a greater sense of knowledge and authority. One person who comes to mind is a "Dr Hovind" an American preacher who claimed to have proof that the earth is 6000 years old...he is now serving a 10 year prision sentence in the US for ..you guessed it..fraud!The value of CHC as a centre for Christian understanding and worship is for others to decide but I personally won't be going back. Too much emphasis on money and very little else.i seldom attend chc either. only to watch the easter and christmas programmes.
just be watchful and decern whether the message is biblical, and whether it points to Jesus, and whether it encouarges, and strengthens you =)
and also.. remembering that the speaker himself can go wrong. like other christians, he will do wrong things, commit sin etc.
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Originally posted by Anton.myer:I recently attended a sermon being preached by Kong hee in Sydney CHC at Leichardt in Australia and while he came across as honest and insightful his account of how a suposed Japanese scientents (Dr Emoto) left me with a few question marks in my mind. Hee had given a lengthy account of how this guy (who supposedly was not even a Christian) did experiments to show that water whih was exposed to positive words, prayer and even thoughts, ...
These points above demostrate that the account given by Hee is at best highly questionable and at worst completely fraudulent. ...Originally posted by dumbdumb!:... just be watchful and decern whether the message is biblical, and whether it points to Jesus, and whether it encouarges, and strengthens you =)
and also.. remembering that the speaker himself can go wrong. like other christians, he will do wrong things, commit sin etc.
In other words, we can never be sure whether anything preached by Pastor Kong Hee has any truth in them, however convincing it may sound to our ears ...
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seriously very funny
chc dun know u
u dun know chc well
i wonder why ppl spent so much
time digging in how it operate etv
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Its not called 'cash harvest cult' for nothing.
ah the power of manipulation
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Originally posted by Omnia:
In other words, we can never be sure whether anything preached by Pastor Kong Hee has any truth in them, however convincing it may sound to our ears ...
in another words, we should always check what the bible says about the issue for ourselves, whether it's spoken by pastor kong hee, or spoken by the pope. =)
like if a spiritual leader calls for christians to stand up and destroy the enemies of the church, like the crusades. christians who bother checking what the bible says, wouldn't have been easily suckered into it.
in the end, as long as the message encourages your walk with Jesus, focuses on Jesus, magnifies Jesus, and is biblical, it's a good message.
if it condemns you, it shames you, gives you uncertainty, gives you fear, incites you to do things which God condemns in the bible, then reject that message.
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God does indeed bless most of us richly in this life, but there are many Christians who remain impoverished in spirit and in finances despite their faith. A theology that focuses too much on blessings in this life does not speak to those who suffer in this world and await their blessings in the next life. While the prosperity gospel's focus on the positive aspects of faith can be inspirational to many Christians, it strikes me as particularly incomplete as we are about to enter Holy Week.
I once had a pastor observe how easy it is for Christians to move seamlessly from the “hosannas” of Palm Sunday to the “alleluias” of Easter morning without pausing to note the darkness and grief of Good Friday. Likewise, when we overemphasize a God who doles out prosperity in this world, we can lose sight of the God who suffered on the cross, the God who allows suffering in the world, the God who stands by us through our pain and poverty, the God who gives us hope beyond this life, or the God who tells us to take up our cross and follow him.Churches like city harvest is preaching only one side of the gospel and does not preach it in its entirety
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
in another words, we should always check what the bible says about the issue for ourselves, whether it's spoken by pastor kong hee, or spoken by the pope. =)
like if a spiritual leader calls for christians to stand up and destroy the enemies of the church, like the crusades. christians who bother checking what the bible says, wouldn't have been easily suckered into it....
Does that mean that it was wrong for US servicemen to have entered WWII, knowing full well that they would have had to kill ?
Truth be told, using the bible to 'validate' preachings is easier said than done. Those attending CHC will swear that their doctrines and teachings are in accordance with the bible, so would those from NCC, jehovah witnesses, baptists, anglicans, lutherans ... ; and these 'biblical' teachings all differ to varying degrees, sometimes even contradicting one another. So how can the bible as interpreted by you and me be the 'final' word on the truths of the Christian faith ?
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Isn't it obvious that churches which glorify material wealth and focus on worldly desires are an insult to Christianity and God?
This is basic common sense. Megachurches like city harvest are completely out of line with the bible because they place money above all else.
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city horse cult!
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Originally posted by Omnia:
Does that mean that it was wrong for US servicemen to have entered WWII, knowing full well that they would have had to kill ?
Truth be told, using the bible to 'validate' preachings is easier said than done. Those attending CHC will swear that their doctrines and teachings are in accordance with the bible, so would those from NCC, jehovah witnesses, baptists, anglicans, lutherans ... ; and these 'biblical' teachings all differ to varying degrees, sometimes even contradicting one another. So how can the bible as interpreted by you and me be the 'final' word on the truths of the Christian faith ?
that way, how can the bible be interpreted by anyone at all?
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Originally posted by bored`:
Isn't it obvious that churches which glorify material wealth and focus on worldly desires are an insult to Christianity and God?
This is basic common sense. Megachurches like city harvest are completely out of line with the bible because they place money above all else.
the only test you can do is point a gun at pastor kong's head and ask him to choose between God and his life. seriously, everything else is just speculations.
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Its simple. Just ask kong if he is willing to sell his orchard road condo and donate the money to the poor. Then ask him to stay in a hdb flat like 3/4 of the singaporean population.
Its clear pastors like kong hee and joseph prince DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF 'HUMILITY'.