City Harvest Church?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
hmm. it's a rather tricky issue.
i'm not so concerned about it - firstly, salvation comes from believing in the truth, not what the preacher says, but what the bible says.
- we are all sinners
- we cannot save ourselves
- Jesus lived a sinless life, died a sinner's death and ressurected again, conquering death on our behalf
- salvation comes only through faith in Christ alone
this is what chc preaches. sure some of the things they do are controversal, but the bible says, a good tree does not bear bad fruits, a bad tree does not bear good fruits. i've some friends from chc who turned out God loving people, full of grace and love.they might not have been saved if they weren't invited into chc. so something good did happen (even if the church is bad). ultimately, God is the one in control. He can use rotten churches in His will too. so don't worry about what they're doing with their bankbooks, worry about your own salvation (if you haven't believe in Jesus)True...But will you consider a chc a good tree knowing the kind of negative views they get from Christians and non-Christians alike?
Salvation is not the only thing about being Christians....and salvation comes about only when one has true faith in Christ and live a life of love and charity.
In chc, you only need to visit them once, raise your hand and the pastor will say "You are saved" and then give you a small booklet and a CD (with Sun Ho's song of course).....that's salvation? Saved liao?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
True...But will you consider a chc a good tree knowing the kind of negative views they get from Christians and non-Christians alike?
Salvation is not the only thing about being Christians....and salvation comes about only when one has true faith in Christ and live a life of love and charity.
In chc, you only need to visit them once, raise your hand and the pastor will say "You are saved" and then give you a small booklet and a CD (with Sun Ho's song of course).....that's salvation? Saved liao?
tts because u hv a differing view about salvation.
if you want to point fingers, let's talk about the catholic church. do you consider the catholic church a good tree, when it has so much history of corruption within the church which led to the reformation?
sometimes i think you contradict yourself.
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here we go again...
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
here we go again...
sounds like army song. brrr...
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
tts because u hv a differing view about salvation.
if you want to point fingers, let's talk about the catholic church. do you consider the catholic church a good tree, when it has so much history of corruption within the church which led to the reformation?
sometimes i think you contradict yourself.
No, it's not pointing fingers.....and Yes, I consider the Catholic Church a good tree. Bad apples are everywhere including the reformation......
What I am saying is, is chc really preaching about being Christians or about money?
And you seriously believed that you only need to visit them once, raise your hand and the pastor will say "You are saved" and that's salvation?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
No, it's not pointing fingers.....and Yes, I consider the Catholic Church a good tree. Bad apples are everywhere including the reformation......
What I am saying is, is chc really preaching about being Christians or about money?
And you seriously believed that you only need to visit them once, raise your hand and the pastor will say "You are saved" and that's salvation?
i believe that you only need to hear the good news, receive Jesus, by faith, into your life as Lord and Savior, and you are saved - sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.
exactly the same scenario. comparing chc and the catholic church. but apparently you practice double standard.
the pastor makes a living from the church (abeit extravagently), you call the church a bad tree.
the catholic church sold church positions and indulgences, commissioned the crusades which waged wars and murders and you call that a good tree.
erm ok, yeah, whatever
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interesting
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
the catholic church sold church positions and indulgences, commissioned the crusades which waged wars and murders and you call that a good tree.
erm ok, yeah, whatever
don't put words in his mouth... he said bad apple....but the double standard is pretty obvious.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
don't put words in his mouth... he said bad apple....but the double standard is pretty obvious.
he said this:
Yes, I consider the Catholic Church a good tree
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
he said this:
Yes, I consider the Catholic Church a good tree
yup, but the excuse is the evil deeds are done are the "bad apples" yet the tree remains good.....other evil deeds done by other churches is because of "bad tree"....
as you'd aid, the double standard..... is really blinding to my eyes.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
i believe that you only need to hear the good news, receive Jesus, by faith, into your life as Lord and Savior, and you are saved - sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.
exactly the same scenario. comparing chc and the catholic church. but apparently you practice double standard.
the pastor makes a living from the church (abeit extravagently), you call the church a bad tree.
the catholic church sold church positions and indulgences, commissioned the crusades which waged wars and murders and you call that a good tree.
erm ok, yeah, whatever
Ok, if you think salvation is achieved that way (which by the way we have discussed in detail in the other thread faith & works with questions still hanging).
The Catholic Church have put the wrong right and how about the other ? You deem them to be the same and accussed of double standard?
You pit history and current events?
It's your choice....and let the fruits produced by the Cathloic Churches speaks for itself.
For those trying to poke fire at the side, same pathetic strategy to make use of others to attack Catholics while pretending to be pro-Catholics - hyprocrite!
Take a look at the protestant churches, the breaking up of the anglican churches, gay bishops, and Jack Chick....the couple charged in courts....etc... are you saying to me that all protestant are bad ? Or only those bad apples? Excuses? Double standard?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Ok, if you think salvation is achieved that way (which by the way we have discussed in detail in the other thread faith & works with questions still hanging).
The Catholic Church have put the wrong right and how about the other ? You deem them to be the same and accussed of double standard?
You pit history and current events?
It's your choice....and let the fruits produced by the Cathloic Churches speaks for itself.
For those trying to poke fire at the side, same pathetic strategy to make use of others to attack Catholics while pretending to be pro-Catholics - hyprocrite!
Take a look at the protestant churches, the breaking up of the anglican churches, gay bishops, and Jack Chick....the couple charged in courts....etc... are you saying to me that all protestant are bad ? Or only those bad apples? Excuses? Double standard?
firstly, i didn't put my foot down and decide absolutely that chc is a good church, unlike you.
i did say though, that a good tree will bear good fruits, and a bad tree will bear bad fruits.
and i acknowledge that chc might be controversal in some area. but ultimately, the believers' salvation aren't affected since, their salvation is tied to their faith in Jesus, not to the pastor. and i have a few friends from chc who turned out alright (even if the church is rotten).
my point is that even if chc is labeled as a cult, the basics of salvation is preached, people listen, and they put their faith in Jesus - and they turn out alright.
whereas for you, you don't even believe that the bible is historically accurate and authoratative. i seriously don't know what you're basing your faith on, because for me, i'm basing my faith in what Jesus says in the bible. you, i seriously don't know, and it looks like you don't even know why you're a catholic too. fancy telling me that "Bible was never written by God in the first place....and some things described in the Bible may not happen as it was and may not have even happened in the first place."
seriously, are you a christian or not?
yes, i am comparing past events and current events. why? because 10 years later, this chc business will be a past event, but it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
japanese occupation of singapore is a past event, so it doesn't matter anymore? tell that to the victims =)
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never ending story about city harvest church.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
firstly, i didn't put my foot down and decide absolutely that chc is a good church, unlike you.
i did say though, that a good tree will bear good fruits, and a bad tree will bear bad fruits.
and i acknowledge that chc might be controversal in some area. but ultimately, the believers' salvation aren't affected since, their salvation is tied to their faith in Jesus, not to the pastor. and i have a few friends from chc who turned out alright (even if the church is rotten).
my point is that even if chc is labeled as a cult, the basics of salvation is preached, people listen, and they put their faith in Jesus - and they turn out alright.
whereas for you, you don't even believe that the bible is historically accurate and authoratative. i seriously don't know what you're basing your faith on, because for me, i'm basing my faith in what Jesus says in the bible. you, i seriously don't know, and it looks like you don't even know why you're a catholic too. fancy telling me that "Bible was never written by God in the first place....and some things described in the Bible may not happen as it was and may not have even happened in the first place."
seriously, are you a christian or not?
yes, i am comparing past events and current events. why? because 10 years later, this chc business will be a past event, but it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
japanese occupation of singapore is a past event, so it doesn't matter anymore? tell that to the victims =)
I think you jump into conclusions too easily.......what I said was :
"True...But will you consider a chc a good tree knowing the kind of negative views they get from Christians and non-Christians alike?"
So did I make any absolute decision on chc as you said I did?
And for salvation, I am asking you - do you seriously think that by going to chc once, putting up my hand and the pastor said "You are saved" and I am saved?
What good news is preached? That I need to pay 10% of my income to buy God's blessings? The more I "pay", the more He gives? And in monetary terms?
You seriously think that is the same as what you described as "you only need to hear the good news, receive Jesus, by faith, into your life as Lord and Savior, and you are saved - sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption."?
You are wrong to say that I "don't even believe that the bible is historically accurate and authoratative" - that is not what I meant. Of course I am a Catholic Christain and I believed in God and trust the bible teachings 100%.
Current chc status as compared to corrupt Pope is comparing current events with history. Nobody said that history did not happen. You should compare current Catholic Church status with current chc. And you know since you attend Mass and maybe going to chc too will help....
So, do you think we should hate the Japanese, take revenge, boycott their products, don't watch their programme, don't visit Japan and kick all Japanese out of Singapore because of what they did during world war II?
Or do you think God teaches us to forgive and reconcile?
Singapore government have corrupt ministers before....does that means they are still corrupted and will be corrupted forever? NKF have bad CEO and management in the past, does it means that NKF is still corrupted and cheating doners of money?
Then how do you want to brand protestant based on Jack Chick and co?
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Originally posted by [J]erry:
... of cos true gospel that help the poor become rich and help bad people to good people
It is very dangerous to judge whether a church is teaching the truth based on whether its members become rich. This is a gross distortion of the gospel and it panders to our human desires. Don't forget that material wealth need not always come from God ...
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Originally posted by Omnia:
It is very dangerous to judge whether a church is teaching the truth based on whether its members become rich. This is a gross distortion of the gospel and it panders to our human desires. Don't forget that material wealth need not always come from God ...
true... material wealth need not always come from God.However, how this wealth is aquired, managed and used can give some clue if its from God.
example: he may also be using these wealth to give generously to works of charities ..etc...
anyway... just a thought.
about judging... I always thank God that He is the judge and not us.... else a lot us will be in for it (ok... especially me, sure fail type)... cause we human have a tendency to condemn...
God bless
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
...the catholic church sold church positions and indulgences, commissioned the crusades which waged wars and murders and you call that a good tree.
The act of selling church positions and indulgences should be condemned. It is debatable whether the commissioning of the crusades was necessarily evil intentioned. These human failings do not affect the official teachings of the Catholic Church which I consider to be the repository of the fullness of the Christian faith as taught by Jesus and his apostles.
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Question: "What does the Bible say about the prosperity gospel?"
Answer: In the prosperity gospel, also known as the “Word of Faith,” the believer is told to use God, whereas the truth of biblical Christianity is just the opposite—God uses the believer. Word Faith or prosperity theology sees the Holy Spirit as a power to be put to use for whatever the believer wills. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is a Person who enables the believer to do God's will. The prosperity gospel movement closely resembles some of the destructive greed sects that infiltrated the early church. Paul and the other apostles were not accommodating to or conciliatory with the false teachers who propagated such heresy. They identified them as dangerous false teachers and urged Christians to avoid them.
Paul warned Timothy about “constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.... But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.” (1 Timothy 6:5, 9-11.)
Paul said covetousness is idolatry (Ephesians 5:5) and instructed the Ephesians to avoid anyone who brought a message of immorality or covetousness (Ephesians 5:6-7). Prosperity teaching prohibits God from working on His own, meaning that God is not Lord of all because He cannot work until we release Him to do so. Faith, according to the Word of Faith doctrine, is not submissive trust in God; faith is a formula by which we manipulate the spiritual laws prosperity teachers believe govern the universe. As in the name “Word of Faith” implies, this movement teaches that faith is a matter of what we say more than who we trust or what truths we embrace and affirm in our hearts.
A favorite term in the Word of Faith movement is “positive confession.” It refers to the teaching that words have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your confessions, especially the favors you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer (as though man could require anything of God!). Thus God's ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith. James 4:13-16 clearly contradicts this teaching, “Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that. But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.”
Far from stressing the importance of wealth, the Bible warns against pursuing it. Believers, especially leaders in the church (1 Timothy 3:3), are to be free from the love of money (Hebrews 13:5). The love of money leads to all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus warned, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions” (Luke 12:15). In sharp contrast to the Word of Faith emphasis on gaining money and possessions in this life, Jesus said “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal” (Matthew 6:19). The irreconcilable contradiction between prosperity teaching gospel and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is best summed up in the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:24, “You cannot serve God and riches.” -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
that's just one way of looking at it..... red eyes??? not necessarily true.CHC has plenty of affiliation with preachers of controversial background, yet they continue the affiliation....
number of people does not indicate anything... look at the Moonies, they also have huge following.....
rich folks like the owner of 77th street? look at the Scientologists, movie stars are in their membership.....
my own humble church has Indonesian tycoons, successful business people, so what!
good mah.. means god is really providing for us....
Scientologists... Movies star.. emmm u mean tom? he is an star even before he is an scientololer -
Originally posted by [J]erry:
good mah.. means god is really providing for us....
Scientologists... Movies star.. emmm u mean tom? he is an star even before he is an scientololer
exactly.... many of your business people were business people before they join the church.on the same note, scientologists can also claim that that tom is being blessed....
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Nobody is LISTENING to one another. It's all a one-way traffic.
Here's my one-way traffic opinion...CHC rules like "everyone have to donate 10% of their salary to the church COMPULSORY" every month is absolute rubbish! You donate at your own free will & capabilities. CHC is not a church, It's an entertainment centre using "christianity" as an excuse to do their dirty work & it's ruining the name of catholic churches. Most of the public thinks that the catholic also seek converts at MRT stations, bus stops & shopping malls. Catholics don't "pulled" people into their faith, you join at your own free will.
Catholics still stick to the traditional way of praying. Don't believe go to a catholic mass(aka service) & see for urselves.
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Smarty boy, i'm with you on this :)
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Originally posted by +Sikoyo+:
Nobody is LISTENING to one another. It's all a one-way traffic.
Here's my one-way traffic opinion...CHC rules like "everyone have to donate 10% of their salary to the church COMPULSORY" every month is absolute rubbish! You donate at your own free will & capabilities. CHC is not a church, It's an entertainment centre using "christianity" as an excuse to do their dirty work & it's ruining the name of catholic churches. Most of the public thinks that the catholic also seek converts at MRT stations, bus stops & shopping malls. Catholics don't "pulled" people into their faith, you join at your own free will.
Catholics still stick to the traditional way of praying. Don't believe go to a catholic mass(aka service) & see for urselves.
Smarty boy, i'm with you on this :)
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City harvest preaches a doctrine known as the prosperity gospel:
Donnie Swaggart, a notable Pentecostal minister, has preached strongly against the prosperity gospel. He has gone on record for saying, "The modern-day greed gospel is one of the worst cancers and blights on the present-day Church. I don't apologize for saying that, I'm not gonna back up for saying that, and I'm not gonna apologize saying that. It is evil, it is a cancer, and it leads to covetousness, and it leads to destruction. There is no difference between the evil of that message and the evil of Las Vegas, Atlantic City, or any other place of gambling. Actually, Las Vegas and Atlantic City and any other casino is more holy than that demonic greed gospel, because casinos do not bring God into their lives."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_gospel
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lol, yesterday at cell we were discussing this. we came to this conclusion. if the message preached focuses on Jesus, the giver, and not the gifts, and it benefits you, makes you more confident about your future, makes you draw closer to God, makes you desire to know God more, gives you peace, then it is a good gospel.
i can't really find fault in a message which essentially says, "In whatever situation you are in, God loves you, He will see you through, trust Him."