City Harvest Church?
-
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i certainly am NOT trying to convince you to agree to my arguments.... as i'd said, i don't really care about your personal convictions.
all i am saying is you keep quoting James to support your view, but you have totally disregarded Paul's writings.... i can offer you what i think of James in terms of interpret what he said.... are you willing to read Paul's writing and offer your thoughts on these "conflicting" verses?
I did not only quote James....neither did I ignore Paul and for me both Paul and James are not conflicting.
-
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
the internet is filled with articles support both stances (and more)....
any side will be unable to PROVE that it's view is absolute....
if the purpose of this series of exchanges is merely to clarify one's stance, i think that is already achieved.
if the purpose of this series of exchanges is to prove one's view as theologically correct, then i think any further discussion is futile.
Yes, agreed and let's leave it as that.
Seriously, I think there are misunerstanding of words and points along the way. I apologise if that cause you to think I am getting personal. I also apologise for taking some of your comments in a negative way.
-
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
A car cannot move without petrol....and is useless (without petrol) and a car is suppose to be useful to it's owner.
but it doesn't mean that the car is non-existant. =)
-
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
First of all, what is it really you want to know....?
Secondly, I am telling you that the best place to get an answer is from the source isn't it correct?
Thirdly, my response is the same as your gf......and I would think it is good to think but don't think "too much"....
You mistaken the question part....I am talking about if you attend RCIA.....you can raise all the tought questions you have against the Church and the teachings......
i want to know why.. she doesn't seem to be aware about how the current world events are slowly going to come in play in the end times. and simply shrug it off as if it's not important?
-
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
A car cannot move without petrol....and is useless.
.... but it does not change the definition that it is still a car.... and to be useful, it needed petrol.... without petrol, it is still a car..... just trying to clarify the issue of "part of" and "need"... nothing more nothing less..
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I did not only quote James....neither did I ignore Paul and for me both Paul and James are not conflicting.
the funny thing is.... i also don't think Paul and James are "conflicting either".... notice that i had used inverted commas each time.
the difference being, our point of view. please also note that in no time have i, chin eng, insisted that i am right...
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Yes, agreed and let's leave it as that.
Seriously, I think there are misunerstanding of words and points along the way. I apologise if that cause you to think I am getting personal. I also apologise for taking some of your comments in a negative way.
personally, i really have no problem when folks here have opposing views.... that's why there are discussions.
however, in many of such discussions.... phrases like: "it's in the Bible" gives a finality to any discussion because to debate against it is like debating against the Word of God, so after that, no point already.
... but i have already concluded a couple of days back that any difference, to me, is just technicality because KNOWING that one does good work is not really a pre-requisite for salvation, whichever way our opinons swing, so as long as we all agree that good work is important and that we keep doing it.... whether it is a condition for salvation is really not that important after all.....
cheers..... smarty boy.... no it's not personal... i recognise that it's because of your zeal...
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
i want to know why.. she doesn't seem to be aware about how the current world events are slowly going to come in play in the end times. and simply shrug it off as if it's not important?
actually, i don't quite get it.... technology is here.... i've heard the cashless thing since i was younger than you....to me, it's some theologian trying to interprete the times, base on a limited understanding of revelations....
-
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
cheers..... smarty boy.... no it's not personal... i recognise that it's because of your zeal...
Cheers and great to know no hard feelings....when I said it's in the bible, I mean that's my source.....and nothing more.
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
but it doesn't mean that the car is non-existant. =)
Yeah but why have a useless car?
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
i want to know why.. she doesn't seem to be aware about how the current world events are slowly going to come in play in the end times. and simply shrug it off as if it's not important?
I told you that girls are not so interested in technology liao what....and technology has nothing to do with end of time....we don't know when is the end of time.....do you?
I agree with Chin Eng on his reply to you on this. When I started work, not all company have fax machine! We actually type our quotation on a typewriter (no computer! but already very advanced with electronic typewriter) and mail out by post (snail mail - no such thing as e-mail yet) ! And we are all waiting for technology to make life easier as they promised....like now and more promises that it will get better.....
Taking bus involved a bus conductor punching tickets and collecting cash.....MRT still under construction....
Handphone is a dream and we slot 10cents to make pulic phone call...phone card comes in later.....
I don't know cause I just dislike Christians then and what they say to me etc...and if some think like you then, that it's towards end of time, the world is still pretty much here and alive....
With or without technology, if the world is going to end, it will end. For me, it is not when it is going to end but am I prepared ?
So, don't think too much and relax.....life goes on and I still wonder why you asking what Catholics think of this..............maybe I still didn't get you.
-
oh.. i finally understand.
oh, because i mean, most christians around me seems to be quite watchful? like rumours about a new world order etc.
and it rubs off on me, maybe it becomes jumping at shadows, but if there's a sign that is a milestone in the end times theory, i am naturally curious and attentive. but she just shrugged it off like end times isn't going to happen, it's a fairy tale etc.
but you're right. it's not when. it's whether i am prepared when it happens or not.
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
my issue isn't that, i have made that clear.
my issue is that, you believe that someone who rejects Christ's salvation, after knowing about it, can be saved through his own works.
Salvation Outside of Christ & His Church
Yes, I know you're not asking about these groups of people. But I'm curious nevertheless about your take as to whether a person who has never heard the gospel before through no fault of his own, or is mentally incapable, may still obtain eternal salvation through the mercy of God, if they seek God with a sincere heart and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will through the dictates of their conscience, as taught by the Catholic Church ?
And you might have mis-read or mis-understood my previous post. I made it clear that the Catholic Church does teach that there is no salvation outside of Christ and his Church (unless it's through no fault of the person such as the situations mentioned previously). So someone who rejects Christ's salvation after knowing about it (unless it's through no fault of his) is certainly in grave danger of going to hell. But we will not know for sure whether he would eventually be in hell. Why ? As cited in my previous post, a person who has rejected Christ could repent on his death bed and he will still have a chance of heaven with God's mercy. Agree ?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:yes, good works is in the picture. i never said that good work won't be in my equation. but where is it in my equation? it's after faith in Christ.
faith in Christ = salvation = desire to do good = doing good. (it is the fruit)
but your equation is
faith in christ (God's provision not enough, you think you need to perfect Christ's finished work) + good works (you feel better about your stand with God because you've done something which you feel good about) = salvation
we're not deluding ourselves by knowing that our salvation is not by works and totally attained by faith in Jesus' finished work. after all, it's what the bible stresses ...
Good works & Salvation
Correction. I don't believe that I am perfecting Christ's finished work but I certainly need to apply Christ's finished work to my life (ie: co-operate with God's graces).
I agree 100% that faith is important and necessary for salvation; the bible certainly stresses that. But that is not all that the bible stresses. If good works is really "not needed for salvation", "not part of salvation"; and if good works really doesn't make an iota of difference whether we make it to heaven or not, then I wonder why the bible bothers telling us so much about the importance of good works, the consequences of not doing good works (hell) and the possibility of losing one's salvation. Hmmm ... maybe, just maybe good works is not as insignificant as some modern day Christians make it out to be ...
(Note: To make it clear, by 'salvation', I have always meant 'making it to heaven', not the point when I first became a Christian by 'accepting Christ'. As I have previously explained, salvation is not a one-time event but a process that is complete only if and when I reach God's heavenly kingdom.)
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:nobody comment about my quotes in acts, galatian and ezekiel.
Galatians, Acts & Ezekiel
You asked about your quotes from Galatians, Acts and Ezekiel. Impressive quoting I must say, albeit rather long
.To sum them all up, in Galatians, Paul is preaching against the belief that one is saved solely by observing the Law of Moses (works of the Law). The Council of Jerusalem as told in Acts illustrates this nicely when they decided on whether one needs to be circumcised (a Mosaic Law requirement) to be saved and the answer was no. Well and good ! We can throw out observance of the Mosaic Law as a requirement for salvation but when did good works come into the picture and get thrown out as well ? Especially when other bible passages tell us otherwise. We have to be careful in differentiating 'good works' from 'works of the Mosaic Law' when we read Paul, James etc.
And as for Ezekiel, I might have mis-read you but am I right to understand that your reasoning is that just because we can't stop from doing bad, therefore the passage is ... wrong perhaps ? But no matter. I agree with you that we all sin (although we would sin less if we grow in holiness). But we always have a loving God waiting to forgive us our sins if we but turn back to him with a contrite heart. That's all we need to regularly do to avoid the consequences of sin as told by Ezekiel.
-
exactly, and what does the law sum up to? loving God and loving others as ourselves. All good works are based on loving God and loving others!
=)
-
Originally posted by Omnia:
Salvation Outside of Christ & His Church
Yes, I know you're not asking about these groups of people. But I'm curious nevertheless about your take as to whether a person who has never heard the gospel before through no fault of his own, or is mentally incapable, may still obtain eternal salvation through the mercy of God, if they seek God with a sincere heart and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will through the dictates of their conscience, as taught by the Catholic Church ?
And you might have mis-read or mis-understood my previous post. I made it clear that the Catholic Church does teach that there is no salvation outside of Christ and his Church (unless it's through no fault of the person such as the situations mentioned previously). So someone who rejects Christ's salvation after knowing about it (unless it's through no fault of his) is certainly in grave danger of going to hell. But we will not know for sure whether he would eventually be in hell. Why ? As cited in my previous post, a person who has rejected Christ could repent on his death bed and he will still have a chance of heaven with God's mercy. Agree ?
with regards to someone who, at no fault of his own. the law of God is written in his heart, and judges him, defends him, and accuses him.
Romans 2:14
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
As cited in my previous post, a person who has rejected Christ could repent on his death bed and he will still have a chance of heaven with God's mercy. Agree ?
I agree! because that's the requirement of salvation, to put his faith in Jesus. even at the last moment. that's why again and again, we kept saying, works aren't part of salvation's equation.
-
Originally posted by Omnia:
Good works & Salvation
Correction. I don't believe that I am perfecting Christ's finished work but I certainly need to apply Christ's finished work to my life (ie: co-operate with God's graces).
I agree 100% that faith is important and necessary for salvation; the bible certainly stresses that. But that is not all that the bible stresses. If good works is really "not needed for salvation", "not part of salvation"; and if good works really doesn't make an iota of difference whether we make it to heaven or not, then I wonder why the bible bothers telling us so much about the importance of good works, the consequences of not doing good works (hell) and the possibility of losing one's salvation. Hmmm ... maybe, just maybe good works is not as insignificant as some modern day Christians make it out to be ...
(Note: To make it clear, by 'salvation', I have always meant 'making it to heaven', not the point when I first became a Christian by 'accepting Christ'. As I have previously explained, salvation is not a one-time event but a process that is complete only if and when I reach God's heavenly kingdom.)
the concept of good work is like...
if you study hard for an exam, it will be proven when you get back your results and you do well.
if you have the right faith in Jesus, it will be proven when good works are produced, in time.
it is really different from, adding on top of what Christ has done.
cooperating with the spirit, means you already have the holy spirit. means you have already received the holy spirit, which means you already are accepted by God wholy and holy in Christ.
-
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i don't disagree that one can lose his salvation especially when one chose to abandon God
I'm glad that we can both at least agree that one can lose one's salvation.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:found this on the internet....
Catechism of the Catholic Church
article 1996: Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1996.htm
article 1997: Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1997.htm
... seems that according to article 1997.... a person becomes a Christian and then the Spirit breathes charity into him....
... it must be said that i am not familiar with the Catholic Catechism to comment more.
The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ's death and resurrection is the sole source of our justification (being in a right relationship with God) and salvation (sharing in God's divine life). We are now able to receive God's graces which is free and undeserved (free offer, no good works needed here) but it doesn't end here.
God also desires that we respond to his grace by putting faith into action. That is why Jesus taught about salvation in the context of what we did in our earthly lives, for instance, how he will separate sheep from goats at his second coming based on what we actually did (Matthew 25:31-46 "whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did to Me."). So we must do more than simply accept Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour.
Faith is the beginning of a process that leads us towards salvation. Faith and works act together for us to attain salvation. St. Paul says it best when he writes that we need "faith working in love." (Galatians 5:6). We are not justified and saved by faith alone.
(Explanation adapted from 'Scripture Catholic")
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
exactly, and what does the law sum up to? loving God and loving others as ourselves. All good works are based on loving God and loving others!
Yes, good works are about loving God and neighbour. But the point is that St.Paul was not preaching against good works. He was preaching against the belief system that observing the works of the Mosaic Law was necessary and sufficient to be put right with God (when it was neither) - that one gets eternal salvation by being circumcised, by not working on the sabbath, by abstaining from this food and that, and by complying with hundreds if not thousands of other requirements under the Mosaic Law.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:the concept of good work is like...
if you study hard for an exam, it will be proven when you get back your results and you do well.
if you have the right faith in Jesus, it will be proven when good works are produced, in time.
it is really different from, adding on top of what Christ has done.
cooperating with the spirit, means you already have the holy spirit. means you have already received the holy spirit, which means you already are accepted by God wholy and holy in Christ.
I would put to you that faith and works are like body and spirit. Faith is analogous to the body and works are analogous to the spirit. Just as we need both body and spirit for physical life, we too need both faith and good works for spiritual life, for salvation.
And just as we don't say that spirit is not necessary or not part of physical life, we too cannot say that good works is not necessary or not part of spiritual life.
And if anyone is wondering, I did not create this analogy, the bible did (James 2:26).
If we define faith as being 'faith accompanied by good works', then I will not have that much of a problem accepting the notion that we are saved (go to heaven) by faith alone. But unfortunately, we can have faith and not bear fruit as warned by the bible; and we can lose our salvation if that's the case. That is why I reject the notion that works done in love through faith play no role in our salvation, as does the bible and the Catholic Church.
-
Originally posted by Omnia:
I'm glad that we can both at least agree that one can lose one's salvation.
The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ's death and resurrection is the sole source of our justification (being in a right relationship with God) and salvation (sharing in God's divine life). We are now able to receive God's graces which is free and undeserved (free offer, no good works needed here) but it doesn't end here.
God also desires that we respond to his grace by putting faith into action. That is why Jesus taught about salvation in the context of what we did in our earthly lives, for instance, how he will separate sheep from goats at his second coming based on what we actually did (Matthew 25:31-46 "whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did to Me."). So we must do more than simply accept Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour.
Faith is the beginning of a process that leads us towards salvation. Faith and works act together for us to attain salvation. St. Paul says it best when he writes that we need "faith working in love." (Galatians 5:6). We are not justified and saved by faith alone.
(Explanation adapted from 'Scripture Catholic")
reality is.... this thread is out of topic for too long.... and that it should stop....
... but your statement is.... oxymoronic.
sole source of our justification.... yet it doesn't end there....??? so it is NOT the sole source??? or the sole source is insufficient???
i'd suggest one of you please start a new topic and take it from there.... this topic is about city harvest church....
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
oh.. i finally understand.
oh, because i mean, most christians around me seems to be quite watchful? like rumours about a new world order etc.
and it rubs off on me, maybe it becomes jumping at shadows, but if there's a sign that is a milestone in the end times theory, i am naturally curious and attentive. but she just shrugged it off like end times isn't going to happen, it's a fairy tale etc.
but you're right. it's not when. it's whether i am prepared when it happens or not.
personally, i have seen to many christians who jumped at shadows....pokemon is bad,
harry potter is bad,
hotel california is bad,
rock music is bad,
SHE is bad,
dragons on vases is bad...
i've been accused of being callous over such issues, but to me, some of such claims are simply ridiculous.
-
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
reality is.... this thread is out of topic for too long.... and that it should stop....
... but your statement is.... oxymoronic.
sole source of our justification.... yet it doesn't end there....??? so it is NOT the sole source??? or the sole source is insufficient???
i'd suggest one of you please start a new topic and take it from there.... this topic is about city harvest church....
Agree that the thread is out of topic. For that, I apologise to the threadstarter. I was merely responding to earlier assertions that good works play no role whatsoever in our salvation. I feel that it is important that readers understand that this is a protestant teaching (presumably taught by CHC as well), which is not held by a large proportion of Christians, including the Catholic Church.
Chin Eng, the statement would not seem so oxymoronic if you try to understand what is being said. Jesus' death and resurrection is our sole source of justification, but we need to respond to and 'access' (for lack of a better word) that source through our faith and good works. If we do that, the source is more than sufficient. If we don't, then Jesus' death and resurrection would be of no benefit to us.
-
Originally posted by Omnia:
Agree that the thread is out of topic. For that, I apologise to the threadstarter. I was merely responding to earlier assertions that good works play no role whatsoever in our salvation. I feel that it is important that readers understand that this is a protestant teaching (presumably taught by CHC as well), which is not held by a large proportion of Christians, including the Catholic Church.
Chin Eng, the statement would not seem so oxymoronic if you try to understand what is being said. Jesus' death and resurrection is our sole source of justification, but we need to respond to and 'access' (for lack of a better word) that source through our faith and good works. If we do that, the source is more than sufficient. If we don't, then Jesus' death and resurrection would be of no benefit to us.
1. the percentage of Christians having different views and what such percentages are remains a unaccountable.... so your claim that a "large proportion of Christians" is simply unprovable.
2. while it is not difficult to clarify one's stand, stating it as a theological truth is something else.
3. i still stand by my stand that your explain (including this one) is oxymoronic.... but it is my personal opinion. "sole source of justification"... the word "SOLE" is self-explanatory.
4. the issue is NOT whether i UNDERSTAND your explanation or not.... the issue is whether i AGREE with your explanation or not.
having said all that.... i am not quarrelling with your RIGHT to believe in this theology... which i have stated many times in this thread that it does not matter either way to me....
i am also not attempting to change your opinion to agree with mine...
to me it is unimportant which way we swing with regards to this issue, i've said before - it is a matter of technicality....
if the purpose of your posts are to "clarify", i think it's done. both you and smarty boy have done that already. let's move on.
-
Originally posted by Dumbdumb:
u know the jews have this candlestand with 7 or 9 candles on it? it's symbolizing the different gifts of the spirit. and u use one candle to light the other candles. that candle lighting the rest, symbolize the gifts of tongues. tts what my mentor shared la.
Hi Dumbdumb, do u really believe that the Menorah symbolise the different gifts of the spirit etc..?. Where did your mentor get his knowledge from.? his own revelation? or from other non-Jewish sources?
-
Please google 'prosperity gospel' and see what isit that city harvest preaches and why so many Singaporeans think that city harvest is a cult.
There is no smoke without fire. Is it by coincidence that city harvest is one of the most controversial and widely criticised church in Singapore?
-
Originally posted by bored`:
Please google 'prosperity gospel' and see what isit that city harvest preaches and why so many Singaporeans think that city harvest is a cult.
There is no smoke without fire. Is it by coincidence that city harvest is one of the most controversial and widely criticised church in Singapore?
because people eyes red that city harvest has so many people...
with 30k+++ of people in it which include the owner of 77th street lol what did city harvest preach?
of cos true gospel that help the poor become rich and help bad people to good people
-
Originally posted by bored`:
Please google 'prosperity gospel' and see what isit that city harvest preaches and why so many Singaporeans think that city harvest is a cult.
There is no smoke without fire. Is it by coincidence that city harvest is one of the most controversial and widely criticised church in Singapore?
hmm. it's a rather tricky issue.
i'm not so concerned about it - firstly, salvation comes from believing in the truth, not what the preacher says, but what the bible says.
- we are all sinners
- we cannot save ourselves
- Jesus lived a sinless life, died a sinner's death and ressurected again, conquering death on our behalf
- salvation comes only through faith in Christ alone
this is what chc preaches. sure some of the things they do are controversal, but the bible says, a good tree does not bear bad fruits, a bad tree does not bear good fruits. i've some friends from chc who turned out God loving people, full of grace and love.they might not have been saved if they weren't invited into chc. so something good did happen (even if the church is bad). ultimately, God is the one in control. He can use rotten churches in His will too. so don't worry about what they're doing with their bankbooks, worry about your own salvation (if you haven't believe in Jesus) -
Originally posted by [J]erry:
because people eyes red that city harvest has so many people...
with 30k+++ of people in it which include the owner of 77th street lol what did city harvest preach?
of cos true gospel that help the poor become rich and help bad people to good people
that's just one way of looking at it..... red eyes??? not necessarily true.CHC has plenty of affiliation with preachers of controversial background, yet they continue the affiliation....
number of people does not indicate anything... look at the Moonies, they also have huge following.....
rich folks like the owner of 77th street? look at the Scientologists, movie stars are in their membership.....
my own humble church has Indonesian tycoons, successful business people, so what!