Originally posted by Chin Eng:and again one more time.... missed what point about the spirit of doing good works...???
it is NEVER ABOUT THAT - it's about whether good works is needed for salvation... wah lao.... and not - whether we need to DO GOOD WORKS OR NOT!
so who's missing the point?
Right from the start, we tell you salvation is by faith and good works....So, we are not missing the point.
You questioned how many times that good works is needed for salvation and we tell you it is not about that number of times but the spirit of doing good works.
You says it is not needed and we merely explained why it is.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:3. All Christians will do good work sometime or other (seeing that quantity and quality is not the issue)
is what I mean you miss the point about the spirit of doing good works.
deleted
Originally posted by Chin Eng:"And salvation is by faith and good works is what the Bible teaches which of course I will not quote since you won't believe it. " - and of course you choose to ignore verses that talks about justification by faith alone.....
who is the one who says don't quote from Book of James? Is that not part of the bible and since when did we ingore any verses you quoted that talks about justification by faith alone??
Oh mine mine, is this the battle of the christians?
Originally posted by Fantagf:Oh mine mine, is this the battle of the christians?
lol it's going to be. if everyone forgets not to get personal about it. =)
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Right from the start, we tell you salvation is by faith and good works....So, we are not missing the point.
You questioned how many times that good works is needed for salvation and we tell you it is not about that number of times but the spirit of doing good works.
You says it is not needed and we merely explained why it is.
please tell me where i'd said good works is not needed... or else you are telling a lie.
i say good works is NOT PART of salvation. any child can understand the difference in those two statements.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:is what I mean you miss the point about the spirit of doing good works.
what did i miss.... ???
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:who is the one who says don't quote from Book of James? Is that not part of the bible and since when did we ingore any verses you quoted that talks about justification by faith alone??
missing the point again.... i was quoting you. the text in italics were copied from your post.
all said and done, can you explain the Catholic Catechism to me....??
Originally posted by Fantagf:Oh mine mine, is this the battle of the christians?
quite normal lah.... even when the forum was moderated....
now that there is no polis... anything goes.
.... actually to me... this entire argument is based on a technicality.
i am quite ok with people who thinks that works is important in salvation.... which in itself is not a bad thing...
however, there are those who are insistent that their ways and interpretation are most definitely correct..... and starts to give me a verse or two.....
nobody comment about my quotes in acts, galatian and ezekiel.
did i misquote?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:nobody comment about my quotes in acts, galatian and ezekiel.
did i misquote?
here's where i said that such verses are ignored by those who are pro-works and faith.
... and when two portions of the scripture conflicts each other, the assumption is that at least one of these portions must be relooked....
... plus when reading scripture, one must also aware of the general theme of the Bible... this, in my opinion, is one of reconciliation and forgiveness.... where's the point if this reconciliation and forgiveness is laced with other secondary conditions?
... but as i'd said.... i think we are all arguing on the technicalities of salvation.
people holding different views cannot prove one way or the another to the other side.
i think it need to be emphasized again, dumb2, in case our other brethens misread us again... that we, you and I, NEVER EVER SAID that good works is not important.... we only believe that good works is not important in salvation.... you think this is simple enough for people to understand???
.... and had this forum been moderated... this topic would have been closed a couple of pages ago due to the out-of-topic slant that it has taken....
and it's also useful to understand the jewish customs in the old testament.
how the entire tribes will come and the priest will lay his hand on the pure lamb, before killing it, and their sins will be covered for the entire year.
if the priest screwed up, and dies in the process - israel comes under God's curses for one year.
etc.
Jesus is our great high priest. He never screws up
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a]7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[b] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[c]11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"[g] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
... as i'd said... this topic has gone OOT for so long that it should be closed....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
please tell me where i'd said good works is not needed... or else you are telling a lie.i say good works is NOT PART of salvation. any child can understand the difference in those two statements.
what did i miss.... ???
missing the point again.... i was quoting you. the text in italics were copied from your post.
all said and done, can you explain the Catholic Catechism to me....??
"i say good works is NOT PART of salvation" is not the same as not needed? It is not part but needed??
What's the point of explaining Catholic Catechism to you? We are already trying to explain why we believe that salvation is by faith and works and causing so much heat.
Now you claimed some feel "their ways and interpretation are most definitely correct..... and starts to give me a verse or two....."
It applies both ways....isn't it?
I agree with you that we should close this.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:"i say good works is NOT PART of salvation" is not the same as not needed? It is not part but needed??
What's the point of explaining Catholic Catechism to you? We are already trying to explain why we believe that salvation is by faith and works and causing so much heat.
Now you claimed some feel "their ways and interpretation are most definitely correct..... and starts to give me a verse or two....."
It applies both ways....isn't it?
I agree with you that we should close this.
sometimes i just feel that it's the case of, "unless my leader says so, i'd better remain steadfast". you won't dare to say otherwise, unless the pope first announce it.
the bible says it really clearly, and i'm not pasting one or two flippant verses, but entire chapters to paint the picture in conext.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:sometimes i just feel that it's the case of, "unless my leader says so, i'd better remain steadfast". you won't dare to say otherwise, unless the pope first announce it.
the bible says it really clearly, and i'm not pasting one or two flippant verses, but entire chapters to paint the picture in conext.
About the Pope, I think you did not understand his function.....
As for the teaching of salvation, it is based on Jesus's teaching and the Bible and not the Pope.
Your picture is clear to you and I respect that. But ours too is clear to us and reasons enough for us to believe it.
No Catholics become one and forced to accept the Church teachings out of fear of the Pope.
You have been to Catholic Churches before, you know....you can go in and out and no one stop you. Nothing can stop and will stop you from leaving if the teachings make no sense to you. We believed in God and His Church and we believed 100% and not some part yes, some part no...
I think that apply to most Churches too.....except some who come pestering you cause they want your money.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:About the Pope, I think you did not understand his function.....
As for the teaching of salvation, it is based on Jesus's teaching and the Bible and not the Pope.
Your picture is clear to you and I respect that. But ours too is clear to us and reasons enough for us to believe it.
No Catholics become one and forced to accept the Church teachings out of fear of the Pope.
You have been to Catholic Churches before, you know....you can go in and out and no one stop you. Nothing can stop and will stop you from leaving if the teachings make no sense to you. We believed in God and His Church and we believed 100% and not some part yes, some part no...
I think that apply to most Churches too.....except some who come pestering you cause they want your money.....
heh heh. aw.. sneaky attack. lol
hey, btw. do u think it's an issue - yest my gf and i went to change our ezlink card, now the ez link card can be used to take smrt taxi, used at F&B outlets etc. and she was amazed that it was really convenient.
so i was sharing with her that now the world is going into a cashless system, and in the end times, the world would be required to accept the mark of the beast, and unless they do, they won't be able to buy or sell anything.
and she brushed it off, and told me that can't i for once, stop talking about the bible, and just enjoy the technology and how convenient it is?
i mean, i figure that as christians, shouldn't we be watchful at what's going on and be even remotely interested about it?
is this a general catholic response, or is it just her?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:heh heh. aw.. sneaky attack. lol
hey, btw. do u think it's an issue - yest my gf and i went to change our ezlink card, now the ez link card can be used to take smrt taxi, used at F&B outlets etc. and she was amazed that it was really convenient.
so i was sharing with her that now the world is going into a cashless system, and in the end times, the world would be required to accept the mark of the beast, and unless they do, they won't be able to buy or sell anything.
and she brushed it off, and told me that can't i for once, stop talking about the bible, and just enjoy the technology and how convenient it is?
i mean, i figure that as christians, shouldn't we be watchful at what's going on and be even remotely interested about it?
is this a general catholic response, or is it just her?
I guess it is better that you and your gf enjoy your time together and both looking forward..... Girls usually are not so interested with technology etc.....like guys who are less interested in shopping.....
But like what you gf said, "can't you for once stop talking about the bible and just enjoy"? I mean, relax lah... why would everything that your gf said or do be link back to is that what Catholics is about or just her?
Wait your gf don't want you then you know.....
Anything you want to know about the Catholic faith, you go to the source....and in your case, it will be good to go to RCIA with your gf. No obligation for conversion and you can speak to a priest and let him know your background and grill him with all your difficult questions.
If you have a chance or come across Brother Michael Broughton (the Brother President of SJI) during RCIA or any of his talk, I suggest you make an effort to go.... He is a very interesting teacher and very knowledgeable about the Bible and Church history as well as the teachings of other faiths. Grill him with all your difficult questions too.
Like I said to you before, you don't have to become a Catholic if the teachings is not convincing to you.... but you will at least know many of the misconceptions that are told to you and floating around.....
So, enjoy your time with your gf lah...
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I guess it is better that you and your gf enjoy your time together and both looking forward..... Girls usually are not so interested with technology etc.....like guys who are less interested in shopping.....
But like what you gf said, "can't you for once stop talking about the bible and just enjoy"? I mean, relax lah... why would everything that your gf said or do be link back to is that what Catholics is about or just her?
Wait your gf don't want you then you know.....
Anything you want to know about the Catholic faith, you go to the source....and in your case, it will be good to go to RCIA with your gf. No obligation for conversion and you can speak to a priest and let him know your background and grill him with all your difficult questions.
If you have a chance or come across Brother Michael Broughton (the Brother President of SJI) during RCIA or any of his talk, I suggest you make an effort to go.... He is a very interesting teacher and very knowledgeable about the Bible and Church history as well as the teachings of other faiths. Grill him with all your difficult questions too.
Like I said to you before, you don't have to become a Catholic if the teachings is not convincing to you.... but you will at least know many of the misconceptions that are told to you and floating around.....
So, enjoy your time with your gf lah...
u didn't answer my question.
and the erm. interest in technology and shopping quite irrelevant. unless you're metaphorically saying that catholics are not so interested in how the current world events are slowly coming into play with God's plan. but quite irrelevant
no la. i mean, what would be your response, if u were in my gf's shoes, since you're catholic too.
hmm, i think your growth as a believer is ur responsibility. why do you all keep fielding the tough questions to someone else. if u don't know, go find out lor, then u'll benefit from the knowledge too.
at least tts what my dad does. he won't tell ppl who ask him question to go ask... some elusive person like, so and so pastor from the so and so church.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:u didn't answer my question.
and the erm. interest in technology and shopping quite irrelevant. unless you're metaphorically saying that catholics are not so interested in how the current world events are slowly coming into play with God's plan. but quite irrelevant
no la. i mean, what would be your response, if u were in my gf's shoes, since you're catholic too.
hmm, i think your growth as a believer is ur responsibility. why do you all keep fielding the tough questions to someone else. if u don't know, go find out lor, then u'll benefit from the knowledge too.
at least tts what my dad does. he won't tell ppl who ask him question to go ask... some elusive person like, so and so pastor from the so and so church.
First of all, what is it really you want to know....?
Secondly, I am telling you that the best place to get an answer is from the source isn't it correct?
Thirdly, my response is the same as your gf......and I would think it is good to think but don't think "too much"....
You mistaken the question part....I am talking about if you attend RCIA.....you can raise all the tought questions you have against the Church and the teachings......
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:"i say good works is NOT PART of salvation" is not the same as not needed? It is not part but needed??
i did not say good works is "needed" in salvation. I said good works is "needed" for a Christian in his life because it was a commandment of God.
Petrol is not part of a car, but the car needs petrol to move..... Definition of a car excludes petrol, but a car can't work without petrol, unless all you want is to park it at the car park. A very simple analogy.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
What's the point of explaining Catholic Catechism to you? We are already trying to explain why we believe that salvation is by faith and works and causing so much heat.
i really don't need the long version, just the part these two articles:
article 1996: Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
article 1997: Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
... but granted you may not be able to answer it.... so if you don't know i can accept an "i don't know" answer.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Now you claimed some feel "their ways and interpretation are most definitely correct..... and starts to give me a verse or two....."
It applies both ways....isn't it?
I agree with you that we should close this.
i certainly am NOT trying to convince you to agree to my arguments.... as i'd said, i don't really care about your personal convictions.
all i am saying is you keep quoting James to support your view, but you have totally disregarded Paul's writings.... i can offer you what i think of James in terms of interpret what he said.... are you willing to read Paul's writing and offer your thoughts on these "conflicting" verses?
i can certainly take you view as a personal opinion, if you can take my view (or dumb2) as a personal opinion. no where can you find me saying that i am absolutely correct? but the moment you throw me a verse or two... i can't help thinking that you think that your stand is absolute.... in your mind.
i certainly hope that this thread is closed, but this forum has been without a moderator for ages.... and i don't believe admin is checking on us.
the internet is filled with articles support both stances (and more)....
any side will be unable to PROVE that it's view is absolute....
if the purpose of this series of exchanges is merely to clarify one's stance, i think that is already achieved.
if the purpose of this series of exchanges is to prove one's view as theologically correct, then i think any further discussion is futile.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:Petrol is not part of a car, but the car needs petrol to move..... Definition of a car excludes petrol, but a car can't work without petrol, unless all you want is to park it at the car park. A very simple analogy.
A car cannot move without petrol....and is useless (without petrol) and a car is suppose to be useful to it's owner.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:... but granted you may not be able to answer it.... so if you don't know i can accept an "i don't know" answer.....
Answering that will drag on the discussion.....so you can have any "answer" in any way that satisfy you.