Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I did not say "one can be a Christian without faith".........
Yes, I said there can be salvation outside the Church for all the reasons we quoted before and you can see earlier postings.
Do you not agree that God prompts people to do good things? In fact, God also prompt people to come to know Him......We cannot be converted with God's intervention and if God is absence from non-believers, there will never be conversion.
hey, i am not debated if a person can become a Christian without coming to church, i am debated if a person can become a Christian just because he is prompted to do good works.
so many people are doing good works, by why aren't they Christians???
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:However you want to word it.......at least you know now (I hope) that Catholics are not doing good works because they wanted salvation.... and if salvation is not part of it, they will stop doing good works....
Good works is done because it is a commandment of Jesus and also needed in salvation.
quite an oxymoron statement....
Catholics are NOT DOING GOOD WORKS because THEY WANTED SALVATION -therefore, they are doing good works for other reasons other than salvation.... right?
but if salvation is NOT PART OF IT... they will stop doing good works.... so Catholics will stop doing good works if salvation is NOT PART OF IT????
MAN.... THIS ONE IS DEEP!
actually this thread has gone OOT already.... we are no longer talking about City Harvest Church.... which is the title of this thread....
if we all can agree that faith in Jesus is salvation....
and that some choose to define that such faith must be accompanied with works....
and that it is close to impossible for one to live his entire live NOT doing any good works at all...
and that the quantity and quality of such good works may not be important (and neither is it stated in the Bible or is it measurable)...
than we can be safely be reassured that those who have faith in Christ will have sometime or other done some good works, therefore, all are deemed to have received salvation....
.... it isn't that difficult is it....
.... failing which.... God will make the final decision.... and that none of us are privy to that decision, which makes this entire discussion extremely futile.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:But not being a Christian is not committing a crime.......and certainly not a muder and I do not see relavence here.
are you sure it's not as serious as you think? let's see what the bible says -
Want to see what God says about work-based righteousness?
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
the tricky part is. can anyone keep God's law 100% of the time? remember, it's not that we can't do good. our problem is that we can't stop from doing bad.
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a]
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[b]
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."[d] 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
unless you think that what the bible says is wrong. what inpired paul said is wrong. then i can't say anything about it.
but this is what the bible says about salvation. in just 4 chapters from romans, with plenty more from all over the bible.
i'm not saying your quote from james is wrong. but i am saying that you could have interpreted his meaning wrongly. i don't want to beat anyone down, or prove that i am right or you are wrong etc. but i want to show you that, your logic has flaws.
your defination of salvation is as flakey as my ability to stop sinning completely. you don't know where you stand with God. you're not sure whether what you've done is enough or not. sure, you're better than some people, but are you within the top 10% of His people?
heck, are you even near the 50%?
that will be your problem if you think that God wants you to earn your salvation.
liddat also flame................
Originally posted by Omnia:I still see good works in the picture. But more important than whether good works is part of salvation or not is the point that we can lose our salvation. We are deluding ourselves if we believe that our salvation is guaranteed just because we have 'accepted Jesus Christ as our personal lord and saviour' at an 'altar call' once before, regardless of how we live out the rest of our lives. Both the bible and the Catholic Church are quite clear on that.
yes, good works is in the picture. i never said that good work won't be in my equation. but where is it in my equation? it's after faith in Christ.
faith in Christ = salvation = desire to do good = doing good. (it is the fruit)
but your equation is
faith in christ (God's provision not enough, you think you need to perfect Christ's finished work) + good works (you feel better about your stand with God because you've done something which you feel good about) = salvation
we're not deluding ourselves by knowing that our salvation is not by works and totally attained by faith in Jesus' finished work. after all, it's what the bible stresses
but you are deluding yourself in believing that if you do more good works, you have a better chance at being righteous. God said, so what if you do a million good deeds, the moment you sin, all your good deeds are forgotten and you will die. Read Ezekiel 18.
nobody is righteous. we have all sinned. christian, non-christian. all of us, the entire human race sinned. we are all condemned to die. but a righteousness from God, apart from the law is given to us, through Jesus Christ, we are justfied freely (i really can't stress this enough) through faith.
Originally posted by Omnia:So do you or do you not agree that a person who has never heard the gospel before through no fault of his own, or is mentally incapable, may still obtain eternal salvation through the mercy of God, if they seek God with a sincere heart and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will through the dictates of their conscience, as taught by the Catholic Church ?
my issue isn't that, i have made that clear.
my issue is that, you believe that someone who rejects Christ's salvation, after knowing about it, can be saved through his own works.
if you're not convinced, read paul's fiery letter to the foolish galatians.
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[b] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"[g] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
if you are still not convinced. let's see what happened when someone tried to add conditions to salvation other than just placing their faith in the grace of God through Jesus Chrst
1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i am saved because i accepted Jesus as my personal savour.... and i am not certain that i need to prove to you whether i am saved or not. please stop being so arrogant that you needed me to prove to you that.so your turn....
So, we need to proved to you salvation is by faith and works and that's not arrogant on your part?
There is no way you can proved you are saved either by the Bible or facts.
I know I will be saved by God because that's His promise (better than any guaranttee you can find) to us if we have faith and works. When we enter into Heaven, we are saved and saved forever....never to loose it again.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
hey, i am not debated if a person can become a Christian without coming to church, i am debated if a person can become a Christian just because he is prompted to do good works.so many people are doing good works, by why aren't they Christians???
I don't understand your point because I just said that I did not say "one can be a Christian without faith".........which you quote me as saying....
There are many people who does good works and yet are not Christians but why do they do good works? Because they worship Satan and Devil, false gods etc...and that prompted them to do good?
Do you think people (non-Christians) do good works because they are guided by satan??
Originally posted by Chin Eng:quite an oxymoron statement....
Catholics are NOT DOING GOOD WORKS because THEY WANTED SALVATION -therefore, they are doing good works for other reasons other than salvation.... right?
but if salvation is NOT PART OF IT... they will stop doing good works.... so Catholics will stop doing good works if salvation is NOT PART OF IT????
MAN.... THIS ONE IS DEEP!
Why take personal attack?? Read carefully and I'll break it up for you again:
I said I hope that at least I have dispel your misconception that :
"at least you know now (I hope) that Catholics are not doing good works because they wanted salvation.... and if salvation is not part of it, they will stop doing good works...."
which already answered your questions that if good works is not part of salvation, the Catholic Chruch teaching will not change. I.E. they will still teach doing good works because that's the commandment of Jesus.
If you choose to read it out of context, there is nothing I can do.
Perhaps, you just cannot accept the facts that we are doing good works because that's a commandment of Jesus.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:if we all can agree that faith in Jesus is salvation....
and that some choose to define that such faith must be accompanied with works....
and that it is close to impossible for one to live his entire live NOT doing any good works at all...
and that the quantity and quality of such good works may not be important (and neither is it stated in the Bible or is it measurable)...
than we can be safely be reassured that those who have faith in Christ will have sometime or other done some good works, therefore, all are deemed to have received salvation....
.... it isn't that difficult is it....
.... failing which.... God will make the final decision.... and that none of us are privy to that decision, which makes this entire discussion extremely futile.
You still cannot shake off the "number of times issue" mentality.....
It is not because you have done 1 good deeds or sometimes does good deeds etc...
It is about doing the good deeds from your heart - that such an act becomes your nature and is engraved in your heart and your mind. A change of heart and that you do so because you beleived in Christ and you are follwoing Him like a true disciple should. It is challenging and easier said than done but that's still possible if we pray for the Holy Spirit's guidiance.... and even though we cannot be perfect, we trust that God knows our heart.
It is about listening and acting to Jesus's word which He told us is what makes us a true disciple. Otehrwise, not all who called Him Lord...Lord... will enter into Kingdom of Heaven. It's about wanting to be a Christian not just by saying with words but by living out our faith.
If one thinks that you need a score card or count no of times or even sometime do can already attituide, then, you are right that God is the final judge and only He will and can decide where one will go.....
This is what James in his book is trying to explain and that salvation is by faith and works only.
I'll leave you with these 2 verses:
19 You believe in the one God -- that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear.
20 Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?
I know you dislike it but I'll leave it as that and end my discussion with you so that we will not start personal attacks on each other.
...deleted... double post.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:So, we need to proved to you salvation is by faith and works and that's not arrogant on your part?
There is no way you can proved you are saved either by the Bible or facts.
I know I will be saved by God because that's His promise (better than any guaranttee you can find) to us if we have faith and works. When we enter into Heaven, we are saved and saved forever....never to loose it again.
when have i asked you to PROVE anything? if i'd asked you to prove to me anyting, please show me.....
I have asked you a question like you have asked me a question. nothing more nothing less...
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:I don't understand your point because I just said that I did not say "one can be a Christian without faith".........which you quote me as saying....
There are many people who does good works and yet are not Christians but why do they do good works? Because they worship Satan and Devil, false gods etc...and that prompted them to do good?
Do you think people (non-Christians) do good works because they are guided by satan??
i think you are taking this entire trend of discussion to a different trajectory.... how any of such folks who were "prompted by God" to do good works actually found salvation...... most die as buddhists, taoists, hindus, muslims and atheists....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Why take personal attack?? Read carefully and I'll break it up for you again:
I said I hope that at least I have dispel your misconception that :
"at least you know now (I hope) that Catholics are not doing good works because they wanted salvation.... and if salvation is not part of it, they will stop doing good works...."
which already answered your questions that if good works is not part of salvation, the Catholic Chruch teaching will not change. I.E. they will still teach doing good works because that's the commandment of Jesus.
If you choose to read it out of context, there is nothing I can do.
Perhaps, you just cannot accept the facts that we are doing good works because that's a commandment of Jesus.
hmm... where is it that we are arguing about WHY you are good works??? we all know that good works are important and NO ONE, me, or dumb2 or any one else is saying that we should not do good works....
all we are saying is: good works is not needed in salvation, and salvation is through grace of God alone....
.... but your statement.... ??? a real oxymoron one....
... and it's not a personal attack.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:You still cannot shake off the "number of times issue" mentality.....
It is not because you have done 1 good deeds or sometimes does good deeds etc...
It is about doing the good deeds from your heart - that such an act becomes your nature and is engraved in your heart and your mind. A change of heart and that you do so because you beleived in Christ and you are follwoing Him like a true disciple should. It is challenging and easier said than done but that's still possible if we pray for the Holy Spirit's guidiance.... and even though we cannot be perfect, we trust that God knows our heart.
It is about listening and acting to Jesus's word which He told us is what makes us a true disciple. Otehrwise, not all who called Him Lord...Lord... will enter into Kingdom of Heaven. It's about wanting to be a Christian not just by saying with words but by living out our faith.
If one thinks that you need a score card or count no of times or even sometime do can already attituide, then, you are right that God is the final judge and only He will and can decide where one will go.....
This is what James in his book is trying to explain and that salvation is by faith and works only.
I'll leave you with these 2 verses:
19 You believe in the one God -- that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear.
20 Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?
I know you dislike it but I'll leave it as that and end my discussion with you so that we will not start personal attacks on each other.
as i'd said... we all do good works sometime or other, and many times without thinking.... i helped an old lady cross the road, bought lunch for a blind man, gave a couple of bucks to a disable busker... all without thinking....
so all that said.... many people do good stuff without major consideration... (or in your definiton - prompted by God)....
so no argument what.... that will fit into your mindset and definition... and if these people have Jesus then they are saved.....
however, i don't believe doing good works is part of salvation..... yet i still do it (like you said - a commandment of God).
at the end of the day....
you do good work because you think that it is part of salvation - and you said you are NOT doing it because of salvation but it's a command of God - you go to heaven
i don't believe good works is part of salvation - and i still do it because it's a command of God - i still go to heaven
everybody wins...
we are all arguing on technicalities and perhaps to fan our own ego or to prove a point...
.... and i won't leave you a verse... quite pointless to do that.....(not being sarcastic, just my personal stand on use of verses).
found this on the internet....
Catechism of the Catholic Church
article 1996: Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1996.htm
article 1997: Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1997.htm
... seems that according to article 1997.... a person becomes a Christian and then the Spirit breathes charity into him....
... it must be said that i am not familiar with the Catholic Catechism to comment more.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i think you are taking this entire trend of discussion to a different trajectory.... how any of such folks who were "prompted by God" to do good works actually found salvation...... most die as buddhists, taoists, hindus, muslims and atheists....
So how many ended up in hell?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:hmm... where is it that we are arguing about WHY you are good works??? we all know that good works are important and NO ONE, me, or dumb2 or any one else is saying that we should not do good works....
all we are saying is: good works is not needed in salvation, and salvation is through grace of God alone....
.... but your statement.... ??? a real oxymoron one....
... and it's not a personal attack.
You simply stuck to your misconceptions that Catholics do good works because they want to go to heaven.
I cannot help you then....but the truth is, Catholic Churches teaches that we must do good works because that's a commandment of Jesus regardless if it is needed for slavation.
And salvation is by faith and good works is what the Bible teaches which of course I will not quote since you won't believe it.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:as i'd said... we all do good works sometime or other, and many times without thinking.... i helped an old lady cross the road, bought lunch for a blind man, gave a couple of bucks to a disable busker... all without thinking....
so all that said.... many people do good stuff without major consideration... (or in your definiton - prompted by God)....
so no argument what.... that will fit into your mindset and definition... and if these people have Jesus then they are saved.....
however, i don't believe doing good works is part of salvation..... yet i still do it (like you said - a commandment of God).
at the end of the day....
you do good work because you think that it is part of salvation - and you said you are NOT doing it because of salvation but it's a command of God - you go to heaven
i don't believe good works is part of salvation - and i still do it because it's a command of God - i still go to heaven
everybody wins...
we are all arguing on technicalities and perhaps to fan our own ego or to prove a point...
.... and i won't leave you a verse... quite pointless to do that.....(not being sarcastic, just my personal stand on use of verses).
Ok if you want to win..... but you missed the point completely about the spirit of doing good works.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:found this on the internet....
Catechism of the Catholic Church
article 1996: Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1996.htm
article 1997: Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1997.htm
... seems that according to article 1997.... a person becomes a Christian and then the Spirit breathes charity into him....
... it must be said that i am not familiar with the Catholic Catechism to comment more.
Well since you are not familiar, perhaps you can read up on it more.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:So how many ended up in hell?
you tell me? I really don't know...
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:You simply stuck to your misconceptions that Catholics do good works because they want to go to heaven.
I cannot help you then....but the truth is, Catholic Churches teaches that we must do good works because that's a commandment of Jesus regardless if it is needed for slavation.
And salvation is by faith and good works is what the Bible teaches which of course I will not quote since you won't believe it.
donch know how many times i must say this..... when have i said that Catholics are doing good because they want to go to heaven...
"And salvation is by faith and good works is what the Bible teaches which of course I will not quote since you won't believe it. " - and of course you choose to ignore verses that talks about justification by faith alone.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Ok if you want to win..... but you missed the point completely about the spirit of doing good works.
alamak... another one of those "you-want-to-win" thing....
and again one more time.... missed what point about the spirit of doing good works...???
it is NEVER ABOUT THAT - it's about whether good works is needed for salvation... wah lao.... and not - whether we need to DO GOOD WORKS OR NOT!
so who's missing the point?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Well since you are not familiar, perhaps you can read up on it more.
which means perhaps you either also don't know, or unwilling to explain....
so the issue is:
A. First viewpoint - good works are needed for salvation.
B. Second viewpoint - good works are not needed for salvation.
and then these following common assumptions:
1. Universally accepted viewpoint - good works are done because of the command of God.
2. Everyone does (maybe except Hannibal Lector or Idi Amin) good work sometime or other... and many times without knowing or have any hidden agenda.
3. All Christians will do good work sometime or other (seeing that quantity and quality is not the issue)
4. Whether one takes on viewpoint A or B, it does not matter because whether one thinks good work is part of salvation or not, as long as good works are done, every Christian goes to heaven.... with the exception of those who does good works with poor intention (who is known only to God).
5. No one knows who has poor intention except God...
.... it does not matter which viewpoint one takes....
.... and hopefully one last time....
this is NOT ABOUT:
1. Whether one should do good work or not.
2. Questioning the intentions of those doing good work.