Originally posted by Omnia:Yes, I can agree with this (more or less). Doesn't change the point though that without good works, one is putting one's salvation in jeopardy.
that's why we say that, good works prove salvation. you're saved, the love of God is in you, thus you love others, and do good works.
i believe like, mother theresa, is like tt, i don't believe that everyday she does good works, thinking that she has to do it to gain salvation.
Originally posted by Babelfish:I am sorry to say that, i don not have a good impression of some christians..because of what i found out about them and experienced before. I know some chrsitians just go church for the sake of going to church! now whats the point of that? Also, i noticed that some christians reacted in a aggressive manner when facing criticism.. maybe this is the new breed of 'Ah Beng Christians'.
erm. i think, everyone gets irked when they're facing criticism. that's simply because the value of themselves are being undermined and threatened. it's an emotional defence which leads to anger and which leads to a backlash.
i think alot of people misunderstand, oh, someone become christian, he's now a perfect holy goody 2 shoes.
it's usually the opposite, remember that we became christians, because we know that we're people who are helpless in our problems, may it be drug addiction, porn addiction, alcoholics, anger management problem.
and we want out.
that changing process takes a really long time. and we believe it's not that we force ourselves to change, but the love of God which is in us, will change our prespective and thought life, and that changes us.
yes, there will be ah beng christians, and ah beng catholics, i'm still trying to remember that constantly that people are still people, imperfect, and full of disappointments. they still have bad days, which affects their mood, which affects their attitudes towards others.
my lesson with my gf, is that, not all catholics are snobbish idiots. (no insults meant, you all know where i'm coming from)
Originally posted by Omnia:The Catholic Church teaches that the usual and expected means of salvation is being united with Christ.
But there is a problem. What do we do with people who have never heard of Jesus Christ and his message of salvation through no fault of their own ? Or people who are turned off from Christianity by the bad behaviour of Christians whom they meet ? Or the mentally retarded who aren't able to comprehend what Jesus is all about ? Or babies who die before they are able to understand anything ?
Are they all destined for hell ? We know from the bible that the Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and that he desires that all men be saved. We don’t know what God will do for those outside of Christ or his Church through no fault of their own, so it’s best not to presume to judge. We can only hope and pray that God will have mercy on them. Which is why the Catholic Church also teaches that
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." (CCC 847).
Nothing to do with works > Jesus' death on the cross.
if you quote the bible half as much as you quote the writings of the catholic church, you may discover for yourself what i mean.
i understand that there are issues and circumstances which seems ambiguous. like someone who nv heard the gospel before, or he's mentally incapble etc. but i really do find a logic-fail. when you believe that someone who is sound who has heard the gospel, rejected it, died and still has a chance, when the bible did say no chance. (i asked this question before, very clearly, and a catholic said yes, very clearly too.)
but you believe it, because you say that the person's work may reach God's passing mark, which we all know there is no such thing, because all of man's work is like filthy rags, and there is only one way to the Father, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and for all man has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (see what i mean by if you quote the bible half as much as you quote from the writings of man?)
see what i mean by logic fail?
someone rejects Christ's salvation. but you sincerely believe that he has a chance because he may be a good person
isn't that saying the value of works is > than Christ's death on the cross in God's eye?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
so how is "salvation" attained?and how much good work do you need to do to attain "salvation"?
if you don't know the amount needed to be done, how you know you have "salvation"?
with the issue of "good works" worked into the "salvation" package, isn't "salvation" now a conditional issue?
so what is it now....
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believe in him (and do loads of good works) shall have everlasting life????
my friend, once you load in the "good works" small print.... salvation is no longer free.
so how is "salvation" attained? - Answer : It’s a gift from God and it’s free.
and how much good work do you need to do to attain "salvation"? if you don't know the amount needed to be done, how you know you have "salvation"?
Is like asking how much faith you need. In ours, it is about listening to God’s words and acting on it. Believing in God and having a complete change of heart so that good works becomes our life.
Salvation is free to all and conditional as you rightly quoted below:
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believe in him shall have everlasting life????
He did not says He will save only Christians but the world. Whoever believe in Him (condition) shall have everlasting life….and not having eternal life now…..or when he profess his faith.
Never did this says faith alone or no works needed. The more important issue is to understand what is believe in God. Jesus said that His true disciple are those who listen to His words and act on them. Not listen and agree only.
Therefore, salvation is FREE and will always be (since it’s a gift from God) but conditions do apply……in your case, professing faith alone.
In ours, our faith and works since they cannot be separated. Faith without works is dead.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:in my opinion....
James 2:14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
the verse is saying that for one who has faith, works comes naturally.
And I think your opinion is not accurate. It is better to read from 14-26 and then we will have a more accurate picture.
The point James is saying is :
18: But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith.
20: Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?
Its is not a "verse is saying that for one who has faith, works comes
naturally".
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
since both of you are so adapt in asking readers to "read" something else...
how about I ask you to do the same: http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm
.... both of you quoted from James... which has always been the favourite book to those who feels that salvation is also works... but how does that compare to the rest of Scripture???
how about reading Paul in Eph 2:8-10 and what good deed did the thief to whom Jesus promise eternal life to did???
having said all that, i really do not like using Scripture to fight scripture..... you believe what you believe, its fine with me.... but ask yourself.... if good works is factored into salvation.... how much good work have you done and how much more you need to do in order to guarantee salvation....
... is salvation is not guarantee, how different we are from the other paganistic work based religion???
Exactly, the point is, the whole scripture supports salvation by faith and works. I did not refer to James alone and I mentioned about the last judgement too.
Paul is teaching what Jesus do and nothing is greater than love. We show love by our good works. How do one knows that good thief has no good works to show?
Anyone can do good work before professing their faith and any good work is good work regardless if it is before knowing Christ or after. That is why I do not agree that we are saved to do good works.
We are not using using scripture to fight each other but we just point out why we think what we said since it is supported by scripture and we believed in it.
Did not know how you get the idea that salvation is not guaranteed just because work is a must as per scripture.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
faith in itself, is not a condition per se.... it is reciprocal action in order to put into reality the act of sacrifice from God to men....to put it very very simply.... God wants to shake your hand.... you will need to stretch you hand out to have it shaken.... it is NOT a condition.
If you need to have faith in order to be saved, that's a condition. But it does not means that salvation is not free.....don't get mixed up.
The fact that "you will need to stretch you hand out to have it shaken" is a condition. Otherwise, you will not get to shake His hand.
A condition is a condition and why do we need run away from it?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:assume if you die today, did you do enough good works to qualified for salvation???
... and if anyone wants to quote from James again, please stop. in light with the rest of scripture on the love and sacrifice of Jesus, and that salvation has always been unconditional if one choose to accept Christ.... then the passages of James must mean something else.
It’s up to God to judge me and I don’t see reason why not.
What's wrong with quoting James? Do we have to take this book out of the Bible again? Of course, James Book support the teaching of Christ and so does the rest of the books including the letters of Paul.
I agree with you the Bible is all about faith, hope and love.
Salvation is always free and will always be so because it's a gift from God. But there are conditions such as accepting this gift and co-operating with Christ so that we can enter into the Kingdom of God by doing God's will.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:u know, hmm.. catholics generally believe works is part of salvation. no works, no salvation.
The Bible said so....
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
but on the other hand they also don't believe that you may not need to receive Jesus Christ to be saved, or in another words - even if someone dies without receiving Christ, they still got chance.
Why not? Did the bible preach about love? Is Jesus coming to condemn or save? Jesus death is to save the world so that everyone (all human beings who are God’s creation) can be saved.
In the last judgement, Jesus clearly tell us that He will judge us based on love and charity that we show (our works). And everyone can and do have good works with exception of minority. He also said that by loving our neighbour, we have shown love to Him.
So, even if one did not accept Christ but have shown love to Him, does he deserve a chance? Well, If God is great, loving, forgiving and gracious and whatever the scripture has shown, why would He have no compassion for these people who have done good and loved Him?
Anyway, who are we to decide who goes where? It is the sole responsibility of Jesus as He has been tasked by God to do so. Didn’t the bible says that we are judged by the gospel as preached to us (as Christians) while those under law will be judged by law…something to this effect.
If there is love in our heart, do we want to see good people who are non-Christians be condemn to hell or do we want to pray and ask God to have mercy on them? If we have love, should we not be compassionate?
If God is love, will He be compassionate?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:so in terms of logic... they see works > Jesus death on the cross, in God's eye regarding salvation.
can someone explain?
No not at all....It means that His death is much more than just saving Christians but saving the entire world. Just like how Jesus never look down non-Jews or for that matter on anyone. All is same in His eyes and He helps everyone......It is sinners that need Him just like the sick who need the doctor more.
When Jesus is dying on the Cross, He asked His Father to forgive them and not "send them to hell!"
To says that His death on the Cross is only to save Christians is like making His death "less worthy" than it is.....
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:The Bible said so....
everybody with a theological point will say "The Bible said so..."
personally, i have no wish to go into a protracted argument as to whether you are saved thru faith or faith and works....
at the end of the day, if God wants to doom me to hell, that's his prerogative.... i did not become a Christian to be "saved" per se, i become a Christian because God is God and i believe Jesus died for my sins....
whether he count me faithful or not has never been factored into because i feel that God can do whatever he wants with me....
if you think that works is needed for salvation, it also does not matter to me. continue to do all the good works you can do....
i do good works not because i want salvation, i believe i already have it, i do good works because Jesus does good works.... i don't have a score card to record what i have done. i am not even sure some of the works i do are really good....
i think one of the worst thing to happen to Christians is to brandish verses at each other each claiming to be right.
the more regular folks here at eternal hope knows that Chin Eng does not like to brandish verses.... so i will not quote any more in this thread.
... and don't get so worked up....
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:if you quote the bible half as much as you quote the writings of the catholic church, you may discover for yourself what i mean.
i understand that there are issues and circumstances which seems ambiguous. like someone who nv heard the gospel before, or he's mentally incapble etc. but i really do find a logic-fail. when you believe that someone who is sound who has heard the gospel, rejected it, died and still has a chance, when the bible did say no chance. (i asked this question before, very clearly, and a catholic said yes, very clearly too.)
The question you may want to ask is why did “someone who is sound who has heard the gospel, rejected it” ? You and I did not reject it….though I rejected it many times in the past so I know why many rejected it. It may/may not be their fault. If it is not their fault, why should they be punished?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:but you believe it, because you say that the person's work may reach God's passing mark, which we all know there is no such thing, because all of man's work is like filthy rags, and there is only one way to the Father, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and for all man has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (see what i mean by if you quote the bible half as much as you quote from the writings of man?)
Actually, we did not says that there is a passing mark……because it is the heart that God is looking at……are you a person who does good works because you believed that this is the right thing to do? Or is it because you have to do otherwise you go to hell? If it is the later, you will not be happy doing it and you will not be able to do it all the time or last long enough…..because it is not from your heart.
“all of man's work is like filthy rags” - is not used in the right context here.
Yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and there is nothing about the Catholic belief that is not agreeing to the above. Certainly nothing in believing that God is so compassionate and so loving that He does not discriminate and condemn.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:see what i mean by logic fail?
someone rejects Christ's salvation. but you sincerely believe that he has a chance because he may be a good person
isn't that saying the value of works is > than Christ's death on the cross in God's eye?
No. No logic failure but different ways of looking at it. Like someone said, he has bad experience with Christians (he called them ah beng Christians) and we all know that there are such people around. At the same time, we do have friend who are great people (and our ancestors - uncle, aunties, grandparents etc) who are non-Christians but are good people.
The value of Christ’s death has been answered earlier
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
everybody with a theological point will say "The Bible said so..."personally, i have no wish to go into a protracted argument as to whether you are saved thru faith or faith and works....
at the end of the day, if God wants to doom me to hell, that's his prerogative.... i did not become a Christian to be "saved" per se, i become a Christian because God is God and i believe Jesus died for my sins....
whether he count me faithful or not has never been factored into because i feel that God can do whatever he wants with me....
if you think that works is needed for salvation, it also does not matter to me. continue to do all the good works you can do....
i do good works not because i want salvation, i believe i already have it, i do good works because Jesus does good works.... i don't have a score card to record what i have done. i am not even sure some of the works i do are really good....
i think one of the worst thing to happen to Christians is to brandish verses at each other each claiming to be right.
the more regular folks here at eternal hope knows that Chin Eng does not like to brandish verses.... so i will not quote any more in this thread.
... and don't get so worked up....
Did I sound worked up? Sorry if I do but I tried to delete some reply which I think do sound strong....It was not my intention.
I think we need to clear the misconception because we do not do good works because we want salvation. We do good works because it is what our faith is about - not because we think that God saved us to do so. But He command us to do so and it is our faith and trust in Him - what we believed in. Everybody can do good work and not just Christians.
We don't have a score card too and we are happy doing it as part of our life and never keep count of them.....cause there is no need to.
This is one of the many misconceptions about Catholics that has been repeated many times in forums (not just this one). I just hope to clear this misconception.
I do not like to throw verses too but my encounter with most protestant friends is that they "quote bible like no other business" and claimed that Catholics discourage reading of bible....etc...(another misconception).
But I do think verses help to explain why we believed in what we do and the truth is defensible by the Bibile.
Just like how greedy prosperity gospel is not supported by the scripture and we know that they are false. Thus, we reject it.
Yes, finally, God is the only judge for us all.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:We don't have a score card too and we are happy doing it as part of our life and never keep count of them.....cause there is no need to.
this, in my opinion, is why i cannot factor in "good works" into salvation. solely because you cannot quantify or measure it.... and when is enough, when is not enough... measured by minute, measured by day, or measured by lifetime?
and if we factor in "God is the only judge for us all" my natural conclusion is: salvation is NOT guaranteed.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
this, in my opinion, is why i cannot factor in "good works" into salvation. solely because you cannot quantify or measure it.... and when is enough, when is not enough... measured by minute, measured by day, or measured by lifetime?and if we factor in "God is the only judge for us all" my natural conclusion is: salvation is NOT guaranteed.
Well, that's your opinion and I respect them.
Teaching of doing good works by the Catholic Churches is because that's a commandment from Jesus......and yes, it does lead to salvation. BUT it is not the same as teaching people that doing good works so that we can attain salvation and ignore that it is Jesus commandment that we do so - like what you seems to be claiming...
It is about Jesus's commandment that we are following.
I already explained that it is about doing good works from your heart that counts, not the number etc....and we are taught as Christians that God love us and we need to love God and our neighbour as Jesus has commanded us.
That really support why salvation is by faith and works because how can one claimed that he has faith and yet do not do what Jesus command? I.E. to love your neighbour?
Faith is not talk alone and we need to live our faith through our works. By spreading the love of God through our works and letting more and more people know that God loves them. And that God's love for them is through the works of His people - Christians. To me, that's what Jesus called His true disciple - one who listen to His words and act on it.
God is our only judge and He promised us eternal life if we believed in Him. So, if we truely believed in Him and become His true disciple, why would salvation be not guarantteed? Can we trust God?
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Well, that's your opinion and I respect them.
Teaching of doing good works by the Catholic Churches is because that's a commandment from Jesus......and yes, it does lead to salvation. BUT it is not the same as teaching people that doing good works so that we can attain salvation and ignore that it is Jesus commandment that we do so - like what you seems to be claiming...
It is about Jesus's commandment that we are following.
I already explained that it is about doing good works from your heart that counts, not the number etc....and we are taught as Christians that God love us and we need to love God and our neighbour as Jesus has commanded us.
That really support why salvation is by faith and works because how can one claimed that he has faith and yet do not do what Jesus command? I.E. to love your neighbour?
Faith is not talk alone and we need to live our faith through our works. By spreading the love of God through our works and letting more and more people know that God loves them. And that God's love for them is through the works of His people - Christians. To me, that's what Jesus called His true disciple - one who listen to His words and act on it.
God is our only judge and He promised us eternal life if we believed in Him. So, if we truely believed in Him and become His true disciple, why would salvation be not guarantteed? Can we trust God?
God is our only judge and He promised us eternal life if we believed in Him. So, if we truely believed in Him and become His true disciple, why would salvation be not guarantteed? Can we trust God?
that's the question we're posting back to you, actually. we are saying that, God promises and provided what is needed for salvation, trust Him for it, not on your own works.
but when you put works into the equation - where faith + works = proved salvation, instead of faith = love of God = love of others = desire to produce good work = producing good work = proved salvation ( math equation, if A = B, and B = C, then A = C)
then where is the trust in God?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
that's the question we're posting back to you, actually. we are saying that, God promises and provided what is needed for salvation, trust Him for it, not on your own works.
but when you put works into the equation - where faith + works = proved salvation, instead of faith = love of God = love of others = desire to produce good work = producing good work = proved salvation
then where is the trust in God?
Yes, we need to trust His words and and we do but you and I simply look at it differently.
God provided what is needed for salvation by sending His only Son to die so that we can be saved. We all agreed to that.
But there are conditions in order to be saved and we need to meet them.....
Both your equation brings in good works....why? Because it is needed and if left out, there will be no salvation.
If I may quote Chin Eng's view which you seems to agree, salvation is unconditional yet you must have faith (which is a condition and to you only condition) sound self defeating .....to me at least.
Works should not be in your equation if you say salvation is by faith alone. Yet it is there....why? Because it is needed.
Catholic churches do not teach us to "desire to produce good works" but good works is a commandment of Jesus. If we belief in God, we try to follow Him and do what He asked us to do.....and live out our faith by following God's word. It is not the same as faith = love of God.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Well, that's your opinion and I respect them.
Teaching of doing good works by the Catholic Churches is because that's a commandment from Jesus......and yes, it does lead to salvation. BUT it is not the same as teaching people that doing good works so that we can attain salvation and ignore that it is Jesus commandment that we do so - like what you seems to be claiming...
It is about Jesus's commandment that we are following.
I already explained that it is about doing good works from your heart that counts, not the number etc....and we are taught as Christians that God love us and we need to love God and our neighbour as Jesus has commanded us.
That really support why salvation is by faith and works because how can one claimed that he has faith and yet do not do what Jesus command? I.E. to love your neighbour?
Faith is not talk alone and we need to live our faith through our works. By spreading the love of God through our works and letting more and more people know that God loves them. And that God's love for them is through the works of His people - Christians. To me, that's what Jesus called His true disciple - one who listen to His words and act on it.
God is our only judge and He promised us eternal life if we believed in Him. So, if we truely believed in Him and become His true disciple, why would salvation be not guarantteed? Can we trust God?
actually, we are NOT discussion whether doing good works is a commandment or not, but whether good works is part of the salvation process, ie, without good works you will not be saved.
we are also NOT trying to justify the needs for good works, so no need to go all around about the need to do them.
we are talking about whether GOOD WORKS IS PART OF SALVATION ie, the act of receiving Jesus into our hearts in order to be put right with God.
i maintain that good works is NOT part of salvation, but a saved person will result doing good works.
you maintain that good works is part of salvation, and even a "saved" person will need to continue to do good works....
is it conceivable that a person live through his life NOT doing a single good deed? let a alone a person who has accepted Christ??? so if that's the case, there is really no argument after all... since quantity is really not the issue, and neither is the quality.... and that only God knows....
having said that and having realised that we are really going on about catholic and protestant doctrine... so it may not be necessarily to prolong this any further.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:actually, we are NOT discussion whether doing good works is a commandment or not, but whether good works is part of the salvation process, ie, without good works you will not be saved.
we are also NOT trying to justify the needs for good works, so no need to go all around about the need to do them.
we are talking about whether GOOD WORKS IS PART OF SALVATION ie, the act of receiving Jesus into our hearts in order to be put right with God.
Yes, we are not disussing whether doing good work is a commandment (which it is) but you ask about the no of times that good works is needed to attain salvation and seems to hint that Catholic teaches doing good works so that we can attain salvation.
I just want to clear that up. Hope it is by now.
There is no need to justify good works as it is a must and commandment from Jesus.
Salvation is not just about "receiving Jesus in our hearts in order to be put right with God" but also living out that act of faith by doing His commandment which happens to be good works.
So, yes, salvation is by faith and works.