City Harvest Church?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
no leh. my understanding about grace came from NCC, though not directly.
did NCC talk about why bad things happen to good people??? -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
did NCC talk about why bad things happen to good people???lol no idea really. i don't go there, but i remember someone once told me, bad things happen because this is a sinful world. imperfect people come together, will hv imperfect circumstances.
but it's all still under God's control. it'll all be over soon.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
lol no idea really. i don't go there, but i remember someone once told me, bad things happen because this is a sinful world. imperfect people come together, will hv imperfect circumstances.
but it's all still under God's control. it'll all be over soon.
i am asking solely from the context of megachurches....i know why bad things happen to good people, but from the context of megachurches where the preaching is on giving to God and God will give you back more, when bad things happen to these people.... why?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
tts only because someone explained what grace really is to me. it doesn't make me less.. sensitive to sin, i still know what's right and wrong, and i still choose to do right, but for the right reasons now. not because i fear i'd get punished, but because i love God back for He loves me first. that's why i said, good works is a fruit which bore from God's love, and not part of attaining salvation.
imho
Good for you.....but good works is not done just by christians.....
In my opinion, everyone is capable of doing good works regardless of faith. We don't need God to "save us first" to do His good works.
And good works is not part of attaining salvation but a must in order to be saved. Salvation is by faith and deeds and faith without deeds is dead. Dead faith do not save.....
The bible teaches us love and charity and it is something that all Christians must follows.... In order to be His true disciple, Jesus said that we must listen to His Words and act on it. Jesus did not say that I will save you so that you can follow me.....
Salvation is free and available for everyone but we need to accept and cooperate with Christ so that we will have faith and deeds - not faith alone.
But that's not the point we are looking at here......
For NCC, the feeling I get is that they uses grace to create a sense of security, selfishness and greed. You don't have to worry and you just tithe and ask for $$$$ from god..... and problems around you, don't worry because there is nothing you can do (how can you save the straving people alone?) leave that to god almighty. You just be kind (to who?) and give $$$ (to who?) and that's all - grace will flow......
Why are you not giving and help the poor and needy? I don't have to because I alone can't solve their problem (sound like love your neighbour?). I leave that to god and he will do his work (that's faith?) and I just enjoy the blessings he showers upon me (sound like selfishness?).
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i am asking solely from the context of megachurches....i know why bad things happen to good people, but from the context of megachurches where the preaching is on giving to God and God will give you back more, when bad things happen to these people.... why?
Yes, I get the same feeling too..... if you don't give money, god will punish you......
I have heard NCC people saying that by "giving money to god", they "get rewarded" with a better job next week, promoted, pay increase a few times etc.....
and don't give, bad things will happen....because you rob god?
I wonder if we are talking about the same God....and is God so greedy, petty and is He selling His blessings? Are 'pastors" His salesman or what?
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
Good for you.....but good works is not done just by christians.....
In my opinion, everyone is capable of doing good works regardless of faith. We don't need God to "save us first" to do His good works.
And good works is not part of attaining salvation but a must in order to be saved. Salvation is by faith and deeds and faith without deeds is dead. Dead faith do not save.....
The bible teaches us love and charity and it is something that all Christians must follows.... In order to be His true disciple, Jesus said that we must listen to His Words and act on it. Jesus did not say that I will save you so that you can follow me.....
Salvation is free and available for everyone but we need to accept and cooperate with Christ so that we will have faith and deeds - not faith alone.
But that's not the point we are looking at here......
For NCC, the feeling I get is that they uses grace to create a sense of security, selfishness and greed. You don't have to worry and you just tithe and ask for $$$$ from god..... and problems around you, don't worry because there is nothing you can do (how can you save the straving people alone?) leave that to god almighty. You just be kind (to who?) and give $$$ (to who?) and that's all - grace will flow......
Why are you not giving and help the poor and needy? I don't have to because I alone can't solve their problem (sound like love your neighbour?). I leave that to god and he will do his work (that's faith?) and I just enjoy the blessings he showers upon me (sound like selfishness?).
good works is not part of attaining salvation but a must in order to be saved - that's... an oxymoron.
lol
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
good works is not part of attaining salvation but a must in order to be saved - that's... an oxymoron.
lol
it's in the Bible....
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
it's in the Bible....
actually depending on how one argues.... even warped theology can be found in the Bible.... -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
good works is not part of attaining salvation but a must in order to be saved - that's... an oxymoron.
lol
in my opinion..... good works IS NOT part of salvation. Otherwise, it would not have been free and therefore, if that is so, salvation becomes conditional.....if salvation is unconditional, one must exclude good works.....
but good works is important because that will determine the kind of reward one is to receive AFTER salvation....
is salvation a REWARD? or a GIFT?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
in my opinion..... good works IS NOT part of salvation. Otherwise, it would not have been free and therefore, if that is so, salvation becomes conditional.....if salvation is unconditional, one must exclude good works.....
but good works is important because that will determine the kind of reward one is to receive AFTER salvation....
is salvation a REWARD? or a GIFT?
the fact that faith is needed is already a condition isn't it?
what is faith without works? Read James chapter 2 for answer....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
actually depending on how one argues.... even warped theology can be found in the Bible....yes, if taken out of context.
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and they're also good at saying that if you dont tithe ur 10% you're stealing from god.
full of propaganda.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
in my opinion..... good works IS NOT part of salvation. Otherwise, it would not have been free and therefore, if that is so, salvation becomes conditional.....if salvation is unconditional, one must exclude good works.....
but good works is important because that will determine the kind of reward one is to receive AFTER salvation....
is salvation a REWARD? or a GIFT?
Can we have faith (intellectual belief in God) without good works ? We most certainly can, and the bible calls such faith dead (James 2:17), useless (James 2:20) and incomplete (James 2:22). This kind of faith without good works is not going to get you to heaven.
So we see that we do not go to heaven by faith (intellectual belief) alone, neither do we 'earn' our way to heaven by doing good works. Both are very much needed.
Bottomline ? Good works IS very much a part of salvation (going to heaven).
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Originally posted by Omnia:
Can we have faith (intellectual belief in God) without good works ? We most certainly can, and the bible calls such faith dead (James 2:17), useless (James 2:20) and incomplete (James 2:22). This kind of faith without good works is not going to get you to heaven.
So we see that we do not go to heaven by faith (intellectual belief) alone, neither do we 'earn' our way to heaven by doing good works. Both are very much needed.
Bottomline ? Good works IS very much a part of salvation (going to heaven).
Agreed whole-heartedly.......and if there are still doubts that Good works is a part of salvation (going to heaven), read Mt 25:31-46 The Last Judgement and read what Jesus said about how He will be judging us.....
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Originally posted by Omnia:
Can we have faith (intellectual belief in God) without good works ? We most certainly can, and the bible calls such faith dead (James 2:17), useless (James 2:20) and incomplete (James 2:22). This kind of faith without good works is not going to get you to heaven.
So we see that we do not go to heaven by faith (intellectual belief) alone, neither do we 'earn' our way to heaven by doing good works. Both are very much needed.
Bottomline ? Good works IS very much a part of salvation (going to heaven).
so how is "salvation" attained?and how much good work do you need to do to attain "salvation"?
if you don't know the amount needed to be done, how you know you have "salvation"?
with the issue of "good works" worked into the "salvation" package, isn't "salvation" now a conditional issue?
so what is it now....
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believe in him (and do loads of good works) shall have everlasting life????
my friend, once you load in the "good works" small print.... salvation is no longer free.
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
the fact that faith is needed is already a condition isn't it?
what is faith without works? Read James chapter 2 for answer....
in my opinion....
James 2:14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
the verse is saying that for one who has faith, works comes naturally.
Originally posted by Omnia:Can we have faith (intellectual belief in God) without good works ? We most certainly can, and the bible calls such faith dead (James 2:17), useless (James 2:20) and incomplete (James 2:22). This kind of faith without good works is not going to get you to heaven.
since both of you are so adapt in asking readers to "read" something else...
how about I ask you to do the same: http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm
.... both of you quoted from James... which has always been the favourite book to those who feels that salvation is also works... but how does that compare to the rest of Scripture???
how about reading Paul in Eph 2:8-10 and what good deed did the thief to whom Jesus promise eternal life to did???
having said all that, i really do not like using Scripture to fight scripture..... you believe what you believe, its fine with me.... but ask yourself.... if good works is factored into salvation.... how much good work have you done and how much more you need to do in order to guarantee salvation....
... is salvation is not guarantee, how different we are from the other paganistic work based religion???
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i love chin eng. i agree with what he said. but i can never have that gentleness. not yet anyway.
too easily worked up. =(
with faith, comes love, which drives us to do good works. good works, without love is merely superficial - trying to score points etc.
i'm not saying catholics who do good works aren't driven by love which comes from faith. i believe they do, but just that i believe they didn't know that it's their faith which produces the desire to do good works, that's why they're doing good works. i believe all these while, they thought that doing good works comes along with the faith for salvation, but what's really happening, is that their faith in God brings about the love of God, which causes them to love others, and thus doing good works. in short, faith with deeds. fulfiling james' message
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
i love chin eng. i agree with what he said. but i can never have that gentleness. not yet anyway.
i've been called many things.... but never gentle.....
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Originally posted by Smarty Boy:
the fact that faith is needed is already a condition isn't it?
what is faith without works? Read James chapter 2 for answer....
faith in itself, is not a condition per se.... it is reciprocal action in order to put into reality the act of sacrifice from God to men....to put it very very simply.... God wants to shake your hand.... you will need to stretch you hand out to have it shaken.... it is NOT a condition.
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... and i ask again....
what is salvation..... if works is factored in???
assume if you die today, did you do enough good works to qualified for salvation???
if you do not know that you have done enough good works to qualify for salvation... is salvation an assured thing???
... and if anyone wants to quote from James again, please stop. in light with the rest of scripture on the love and sacrifice of Jesus, and that salvation has always been unconditional if one choose to accept Christ.... then the passages of James must mean something else.
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u know, hmm.. catholics generally believe works is part of salvation. no works, no salvation.
but on the other hand they also don't believe that you may not need to receive Jesus Christ to be saved, or in another words - even if someone dies without receiving Christ, they still got chance.
so in terms of logic... they see works > Jesus death on the cross, in God's eye regarding salvation.
can someone explain?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
so how is "salvation" attained?
and how much good work do you need to do to attain "salvation"?
if you don't know the amount needed to be done, how you know you have "salvation"?
with the issue of "good works" worked into the "salvation" package, isn't "salvation" now a conditional issue?
so what is it now....
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believe in him (and do loads of good works) shall have everlasting life????
my friend, once you load in the "good works" small print.... salvation is no longer free.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:in my opinion....
James 2:14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
the verse is saying that for one who has faith, works comes naturally.
since both of you are so adapt in asking readers to "read" something else...
how about I ask you to do the same: http://www.carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm
.... both of you quoted from James... which has always been the favourite book to those who feels that salvation is also works... but how does that compare to the rest of Scripture???
how about reading Paul in Eph 2:8-10 and what good deed did the thief to whom Jesus promise eternal life to did???
having said all that, i really do not like using Scripture to fight scripture..... you believe what you believe, its fine with me.... but ask yourself.... if good works is factored into salvation.... how much good work have you done and how much more you need to do in order to guarantee salvation....
... is salvation is not guarantee, how different we are from the other paganistic work based religion???
Guarantee of Salvation ?
Salvation (going to heaven) is indeed conditional; conditional upon our faith and good works. We may not like to hear this but there is no guarantee or 100% assurance of salvation whilst in this life. We can however, have confident expectation of making it to heaven if we maintain a good standing with God, or by sincere repentence when we fall away.
Salvation (making it to heaven) is not a one-time "accept Jesus as your personal lord and saviour" event, but a continuous process where we accept God's graces and grow spiritually. God freely offers his graces and salvation to us but we are certainly free to reject them if we so choose. We need to cooperate with God's graces.
You are right in saying that we should read the bible as a whole in understanding God's word. The bible does indeed talk about being saved through faith but it also talks about the necessity of good works (and not works of the Mosaic Law) in our salvation. The letter of James is one of several examples but a prime one. So if we do look at Scriptures as a whole, we have to conclude that salvation is not by faith alone OR by good works alone, but by faith AND good works.
James Chapter 2
And I don't see how one can conclude that the main point of James Chapter 2 is about works coming naturally to one who has faith. It's more than that. James is very clear that faith must come with works if one is to be saved, "faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead." and how we are justified "not by faith alone." It's hard to get any clearer than this.
Your Article
Your article differentiates between true faith that leads to works and (let's call it) 'bad' faith where you merely acknowledge God's existence without any fruits to show for it. The article then concludes, "it is not merely enough to say you believe in Jesus. You must actually believe and trust in Him. If you actually do, then you will demonstrate that faith by a changed and godly life. If not, then your profession is of no more value than the same profession of demons: "We believe Jesus lived."
I can agree with this (more or less) but would like to point out that this too does not guarantee one of salvation. Why do I say that ? We may have been baptised, we may have sworn to the whole world that we accept Jesus but how do we know (for sure) that our professed faith is 'true' and not 'bad' ? Can we be sure that we have led a godly life, one that stems from 'true' faith ?
According to your article at least, true faith is demonstrated by leading a changed and godly life. This brings us back once again to good works. Salvation IS about faith and good works. Take away good works and your faith is "dead" (according to James) or "of no more value than the same profession of demons" (according to your article).
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
... with faith, comes love, which drives us to do good works. good works, without love is merely superficial - trying to score points etc.
i'm not saying catholics who do good works aren't driven by love which comes from faith. i believe they do, but just that i believe they didn't know that it's their faith which produces the desire to do good works, that's why they're doing good works. i believe all these while, they thought that doing good works comes along with the faith for salvation, but what's really happening, is that their faith in God brings about the love of God, which causes them to love others, and thus doing good works. in short, faith with deeds. fulfiling james' message
Yes, I can agree with this (more or less). Doesn't change the point though that without good works, one is putting one's salvation in jeopardy.
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I am sorry to say that, i don not have a good impression of some christians..because of what i found out about them and experienced before. I know some chrsitians just go church for the sake of going to church! now whats the point of that? Also, i noticed that some christians reacted in a aggressive manner when facing criticism.. maybe this is the new breed of 'Ah Beng Christians'.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
u know, hmm.. catholics generally believe works is part of salvation. no works, no salvation.
but on the other hand they also don't believe that you may not need to receive Jesus Christ to be saved, or in another words - even if someone dies without receiving Christ, they still got chance.
so in terms of logic... they see works > Jesus death on the cross, in God's eye regarding salvation.
can someone explain?
The Catholic Church teaches that the usual and expected means of salvation is being united with Christ.
But there is a problem. What do we do with people who have never heard of Jesus Christ and his message of salvation through no fault of their own ? Or people who are turned off from Christianity by the bad behaviour of Christians whom they meet ? Or the mentally retarded who aren't able to comprehend what Jesus is all about ? Or babies who die before they are able to understand anything ?
Are they all destined for hell ? We know from the bible that the Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and that he desires that all men be saved. We don’t know what God will do for those outside of Christ or his Church through no fault of their own, so it’s best not to presume to judge. We can only hope and pray that God will have mercy on them. Which is why the Catholic Church also teaches that
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." (CCC 847).
Nothing to do with works > Jesus' death on the cross.