On morality
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Whether or not he is termed Almighty, if Jesus is indeed divine and 'a mighty god', he must be that one true God, right ? Afterall, as you've rightly pointed out previously, there is only one God.
As for the term 'reflection', the concise Oxford dictionary gives the meaning of 'reflect' as 'embody or represent in a fiathful or appropriate way'. So to be a reflection of God's glory does not necessarily imply that Jesus is not God. Some other bible translations do not use reflecion but the brightness of his glory (KJV), and the refulgence (shining very brightly) of his glory (NAB).
And speaking of John 1:1, it is only the New World Translation Bible created by Jehovah Witnesses (who by the way do not believe in Jesus' divinity) and a few other translations that read "... and the Word (ie: Jesus) was with God, and the Word was a god".
The vast majority of bible translations in use by both Catholics and Protestants (Anglicans, Methodists, 'mega churches', what have you) translates " ... and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". We can debate about the Greek, about the use of definite and indefinite articles in the translation etc but the bottomline is that the vast majority of credible scholars saw it fit to translate as "... the Word was God".
Besides, as explained previously, Jesus cannot be another (less powerful?) god because there is only one true God.
i cant agree with your 1st paragraph..one thing is there is a very big diff between mighty and almighty.satan is also a very mighty god,in fact he is termed the god of this system of things,this definitely does not make him the almighty God right?so among all the mighty gods,it is therefore correct to say and give praise to Jehovah as the one true almighty God.
as for the meaning of reflection as in oxford dictionary(thanks for the extra info too =]),it was stated as a representative.again from my understanding,representative and the one being represented are 2 diff persons no? on certain nights,the moon does shine very brightly(like 2nite),does it means that the moon actually does gives off light on its on?or is it still the "mirror" that is reflecting the sun's light?
the john 1:1 verse,u had said it that in actual fact,its not only the nwt by jws, but also other translations used by churches uses the word god for jesus and God for Jehovah,we can rule out jws as editin the bible truth right?
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Yes, Luke 4:8 (account of satan's temptation of Jesus) has Jesus saying, "You shall worship the Lord, your God, and him alone shall you serve." Jesus was quoting scripture and as explained above, it does not necessarily imply that Jesus is not God.
even if jesus was jus quoting the scripture like we do, and we do not factor in that since jesus is God n he can jus say to satan, "i have said that you shall worship me,your God n i alone u shall render sacred service." we also have to think one very logical point..God created all things..with what the wicked one can use to tempt God with since all bases belong to God??eg, i m a guest in your house, n i use say your house keys n request that u acknowledge me as the owner of the house,would that make any sense??
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Let me help translate Phil 2:5-6 in simpler terms. St Paul tells us in that passage that Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting his equality with God, emptied himself for us, coming into the world in human form to bring salvation to mankind. The passage doesn't necessarily imply anything about Jesus not being the one true God.
So to Miracles&Prophecies, I'm glad Jesus has touched your life. Do not be apologetic or worry about worshipping Jesus vis-a-vis God the Father. They are different persons of the one same God. Emulate the example of Thomas in John 20:28. When Thomas saw the risen Jesus with the cruxifiction wounds, he exclaimed to Jesus, "My Lord and My God !" or in literal translation from the Greek "The Lord of me and the God of me". Jesus did not rebuke him for blasphemy. Instead, he accepts Thomas' profession of his identity as God.
for this verse, i have to admit i have no deeper knowledge in and will have to meditate upon it.
however, we have to see if the concept of trinity is a consistent doctrine in the entire bible. also, for a person to be teaching trinity is not simple.not every tom,dick or harry can do that, it needs paper qualification to certify the person.and for those that is being preached,not everyone is a theologian.the masses jesus n co taught were simple people and simple words were used.yet they understand fully and embrace God.this is not the case now..among church goers,i dare say 99% cannot explain more about trinity if probe further.
it has being a very good discussion with you.n it is obvious u have intense love for God.do however know that God is not a confusing God. n i look forward to discuss more with you again =)
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Originally posted by domonkassu:
hmm, if we take it literally it is a fruit that lets ppl know good n bad, den adam n eve were right to eat it n God was wrong to prevent them from eating it..selfish..
however,God being the one who creates everything knows whats best for all manner of creation right..if he says its not ok,it means sth bad will happen to us if we pursue it.(tink beating red light in a busy road)
the bible says upon eating the fruit,their eyes open n know good n bad.since tats the only command given to them back then n they broke it, i guess it means they know its really bad to go against God n good to keep in God's command.tats y they were ashamed of themselves.
definitely not God's will,or he will be slapping himself since he gave freewill..
Hi domonkassu, i am curious on the JW take on this issue, can u help.
1. When God planted the tree of G&B in the garden, he commanded Adam & Eve not to eat from that tree. Did God know in advance that man will surely eat from that tree and die?. If so, did God "Sabo" man to die?
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
hi onmia based on this: im starting to think if its just me or i dun knw,from what i understand about ONLY..it means there is but one at anytime,now if dad,son,hs are all only true God.that still makes 3 Gods(be it in one God head or not),also scriptural evidence shows that no one(no one from my understanding means not a single other entity besides the addressee) bsides Jehovah shares his unique position as the true God.
Let's try it another way by having you answer a few questions:
1. Is there only one true God ? If so, can I take it that there cannot be any other god whether they are less powerful, more powerful or otherwise ?
2. Based on your interpretation of the bible, is or is not Jesus divine (a god) ?
Originally posted by domonkassyu:Jesus will be lord for the 1000years from armageddon till the final test for humanity is it not?after which he will return the position back to Jehovah.by your token, That if Jehovah is both Lord n God,tat will make the son both Lord n God kinda funny..it is written that there are many lords,surely that does not make them all God right?
I don't agree with your view of the end of the world but that's a separate issue. I'm simply bringing your original argument based on 1Cor8:6 to the logical conclusion. Let's reiterate what St Paul wrote in 1Cor8:6 -
" ... yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist."
Correct me if I got it wrong but your original argument was that just because Paul wrote that there is "... one God, the Father ...", nobody else except "the Father" can be that one God. Correct ?
Well, Paul carried on to write that there is "... one Lord, Jesus Christ ...". Applying your same argument, we would also conclude that nobody else except "Jesus Christ" can be that one Lord. Right ?
Taking the above together, your argument would then lead to the conclusion that the Father is God but not Lord; and Jesus Christ is Lord but not God. Do you agree with this ? If not, there must then be something wrong in the original argument that just because Paul wrote, "... one God, the Father...", nobody else can be God except "the Father".
Originally posted by domonkassyu:I cant agree with your 1st paragraph..one thing is there is a very big diff between mighty and almighty.satan is also a very mighty god,in fact he is termed the god of this system of things,this definitely does not make him the almighty God right?so among all the mighty gods,it is therefore correct to say and give praise to Jehovah as the one true almighty God.
as for the meaning of reflection as in oxford dictionary(thanks for the extra info too =]),it was stated as a representative.again from my understanding, representative and the one being represented are 2 diff persons no? on certain nights,the moon does shine very brightly(like 2nite),does it means that the moon actually does gives off light on its on?or is it still the "mirror" that is reflecting the sun's light?
the john 1:1 verse,u had said it that in actual fact,its not only the nwt by jws, but also other translations used by churches uses the word god for jesus and God for Jehovah,we can rule out jws as editin the bible truth right?.
Let me get this straight. You believe that Satan is a very mighty god ? Maybe I should ask what is your definition of god ?
In the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus is indeed a different person from God the Father. Remember - three Persons (the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit) in one true God, all co-eternal and co-equal. But putting this aside and coming to the term 'reflection', if I say to you that you are a true representation/embodiment (or reflection) of a human being, does that mean that you are not a human being ? Don't forget that the meaning of reflection given by Oxford also has 'embody' in it. The term 'reflection' can have slightly different meanings in different contexts. So to be a reflection of God's glory does not necessarily imply that Jesus is not God. In fact, it could very well mean that he is God, just as you are a human being.
Regarding John 1:1, I have yet to come across a mainstream church that uses your translation. That aside, which should I follow ? Major bible translations done by credible scholars in use by most Christian churches or a handful of 'special' translations that hardly anyone uses except maybe Jehovah Witnesses ? I'll let readers decide but I'll go with the former any day.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:even if jesus was jus quoting the scripture like we do, and we do not factor in that since jesus is God n he can jus say to satan, "i have said that you shall worship me,your God n i alone u shall render sacred service." we also have to think one very logical point..God created all things..with what the wicked one can use to tempt God with since all bases belong to God??eg, i m a guest in your house, n i use say your house keys n request that u acknowledge me as the owner of the house,would that make any sense??
The devil did not succeed in his temptation of Jesus, did he ? We also have to remember (and this might be something new to readers) that Jesus took on human form when he came into this world; he was both God and Man, having both a divine nature and a human nature that could feel pain, hunger and be tempted by the devil.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:however, we have to see if the concept of trinity is a consistent doctrine in the entire bible. also, for a person to be teaching trinity is not simple.not every tom,dick or harry can do that, it needs paper qualification to certify the person.and for those that is being preached,not everyone is a theologian.the masses jesus n co taught were simple people and simple words were used.yet they understand fully and embrace God.this is not the case now..among church goers,i dare say 99% cannot explain more about trinity if probe further.
The concept of the Trinity is the result of reflecting and taking into consideration everything the bible says as well as the teachings of the apostles and their successors in the early Church. Yes, I agree with you that the doctrine of the Trinity is not simple and that not many Christians have a full grasp of the doctrine - myself included. What I've shared with you are not things that I've thought of on my own but what I've read which I agree with and believe to be in line with what the Catholic Church teaches (which is important to me as a Catholic).
But just because something is complex doesn't make it untrue. God is infinite whereas we are but finite creatures. Peter himself commented in 2Peter3:15 that "In them (referrng to Paul's writings) there are some things hard to understand ...".
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Let's try it another way by having you answer a few questions:
1. Is there only one true God ? If so, can I take it that there cannot be any other god whether they are less powerful, more powerful or otherwise ?
2. Based on your interpretation of the bible, is or is not Jesus divine (a god) ?
before i can answer that, i have to know if you do know the difference between god n God...once you know the diff den the answers will be simpler to understand..(for the true God,i will use "God" or Yahweh or Jehovah God.for any other gods be it demons,false gods or mighty people, i will use gods or god)
1.there is no other God than Jehovah.some eg are john17:3, Isa 44:6, 1Cor8:5. so there cannot be any other entities that is equal or greater then Jehovah God..there are however lesser gods...
2.jesus is from a divine source ie being from Jehovah God..however,he is not the almighty God...he is a mighty god..
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I don't agree with your view of the end of the world but that's a separate issue. I'm simply bringing your original argument based on 1Cor8:6 to the logical conclusion. Let's reiterate what St Paul wrote in 1Cor8:6 -
" ... yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist."
Correct me if I got it wrong but your original argument was that just because Paul wrote that there is "... one God, the Father ...", nobody else except "the Father" can be that one God. Correct ?
Well, Paul carried on to write that there is "... one Lord, Jesus Christ ...". Applying your same argument, we would also conclude that nobody else except "Jesus Christ" can be that one Lord. Right ?
Taking the above together, your argument would then lead to the conclusion that the Father is God but not Lord; and Jesus Christ is Lord but not God. Do you agree with this ? If not, there must then be something wrong in the original argument that just because Paul wrote, "... one God, the Father...", nobody else can be God except "the Father".
yes to paragraph 2.
no n yes to paragraph 3. reason for no...it is written that there are many lords throughout history.reason for yes because there is only one jesus whom God approved and given great power to act on God's behalf as the lord.his represantative.
taking the above, father is God yes. but still the overlord of jesus..jesus being given great power by God is lord over humans n angels but still not God.
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Let me get this straight. You believe that Satan is a very mighty god ? Maybe I should ask what is your definition of god ?
In the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus is indeed a different person from God the Father. Remember - three Persons (the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit) in one true God, all co-eternal and co-equal. But putting this aside and coming to the term 'reflection', if I say to you that you are a true representation/embodiment (or reflection) of a human being, does that mean that you are not a human being ? Don't forget that the meaning of reflection given by Oxford also has 'embody' in it. The term 'reflection' can have slightly different meanings in different contexts. So to be a reflection of God's glory does not necessarily imply that Jesus is not God. In fact, it could very well mean that he is God, just as you are a human being.
Regarding John 1:1, I have yet to come across a mainstream church that uses your translation. That aside, which should I follow ? Major bible translations done by credible scholars in use by most Christian churches or a handful of 'special' translations that hardly anyone uses except maybe Jehovah Witnesses ? I'll let readers decide but I'll go with the former any day.
is not satan called the god of this system of things?the one reason we are not seeing eye to eye with each other on this is bcuz of our understanding of God n god yes?
from my understanding,god is an entity with great powers. a mighty being.from the supernatural side,our no1 contestant is satan the devil.from humans side especially from singapre,contestant lky..such being of power that is capable of great feats are gods in their own way is it not?the hebrews uses terms for "GOD" to convey ideas of strength,majesty,dignity n execellence.in contrast to the true God, there are also false gods,some have set themselves up as gods while others were made objects of worship by those who serve and love them..think michael jackson.
God on the other hand, defines The Supreme Being,whose name is Jehovah/Yahweh.
for the human example,when u comlement me as a true rep of human being,it means that i have certain qualities that reflect the true esscene of a human being.however, tat does not mean im a human nor does it mean im not a human.so it kind of contra off with our jesus being a rep of God.
the john 1:1 translation,perharps can only be answered by some other "mainstream" christians cuz i dont have a collection of bibles..
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The devil did not succeed in his temptation of Jesus, did he ? We also have to remember (and this might be something new to readers) that Jesus took on human form when he came into this world; he was both God and Man, having both a divine nature and a human nature that could feel pain, hunger and be tempted by the devil.
yep,he failed..jesus rebuked him that we should only serve the true God(the father).now when jesus were being tempted,he already regained his pre human existence knowledge right?so if he is the true God,y didnt he simply say to satan that it is I that you should worship??given the scenario that at the wilderness,there was only satan n jesus hanging out alone.n if jesus was God, satan would have ask him to jump off the cliff to see if he can save himself instead of asking him to call upon God to save him..
twisted the demons mayb,they have unwittingly stand witness that there is a God and the true identity of God.
jus like my eg of me going to your house as a guest, taking your keys and wants u to acknowledge me as the house owner.would you do it if u were wet n hungry n i promised that once u acknowledge me,i will feed n clothe u..would u do it??
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The concept of the Trinity is the result of reflecting and taking into consideration everything the bible says as well as the teachings of the apostles and their successors in the early Church. Yes, I agree with you that the doctrine of the Trinity is not simple and that not many Christians have a full grasp of the doctrine - myself included. What I've shared with you are not things that I've thought of on my own but what I've read which I agree with and believe to be in line with what the Catholic Church teaches (which is important to me as a Catholic).
But just because something is complex doesn't make it untrue. God is infinite whereas we are but finite creatures. Peter himself commented in 2Peter3:15 that "In them (referrng to Paul's writings) there are some things hard to understand ...".
i agree that God is infinite whereas we are but dust to him..not only peter but many parts of the bible points to certain things are to reviewed only at God's appointed time.im sure by then, everyone will be clear on trinity..but suppose either one of us is right,it would have been to late for the other one is it not?
the concept of trinity comes as a result of about 3 councils n also of plato's influence.
what i shared with you are also not just my own thoughts but from careful researches on church teachings and things people do and say.people that are also impt figures of churhces.what u have shared is indeed in line with what the church teach.however, what i wana point out is are what the churches teach in line with the bible?
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
Hi domonkassu, i am curious on the JW take on this issue, can u help.
1. When God planted the tree of G&B in the garden, he commanded Adam & Eve not to eat from that tree. Did God know in advance that man will surely eat from that tree and die?. If so, did God "Sabo" man to die?
hmm..jw take ar...i dun knw lehz..but what i do know is though God have the ability to know all things,it seems like an ability to use at will..if not den he sabo not jus humans but satan as well...
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
Hi domonkassu, i am curious on the JW take on this issue, can u help.
1. When God planted the tree of G&B in the garden, he commanded Adam & Eve not to eat from that tree. Did God know in advance that man will surely eat from that tree and die?. If so, did God "Sabo" man to die?
hmm..jw take ar...i dun knw lehz..but what i do know is though God have the ability to know all things,it seems like an ability to use at will..if not den he sabo not jus humans but satan as well...
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
for the human example,when u comlement me as a true rep of human being,it means that i have certain qualities that reflect the true esscene of a human being.however, tat does not mean im a human nor does it mean im not a human.so it kind of contra off with our jesus being a rep of God.
Precisely. That is why you cannot (as what you originally did) say Jesus is not the one God just because the verse that describes Jesus as the reflection of God's glory has the word 'reflection' in it.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:... so if he is the true God,y didnt he simply say to satan that it is I that you should worship??given the scenario that at the wilderness,there was only satan n jesus hanging out alone.n if jesus was God, satan would have ask him to jump off the cliff to see if he can save himself instead of asking him to call upon God to save him..
I'll ask Jesus if I make it to heaven
. But seriously, just because Jesus used the 'third person voice' to refer to God doesn't necessarily mean that he is denying his Godliness. If I was a boy scout and someone tempted me to steal, I could say to the person, "It is not right for a boy scout to steal !" - doesn't mean that I'm not a boy scout.There are many other instances in the bible when Jesus made known that he was the God. In fact, that was why the Jews were so furious with him and wanted to kill him because it was blasphemy of the highest order for anyone to claim to be God (Yahweh or Jehovah).
Originally posted by domonkassyu:before i can answer that, i have to know if you do know the difference between god n God...once you know the diff den the answers will be simpler to understand..(for the true God,i will use "God" or Yahweh or Jehovah God.for any other gods be it demons,false gods or mighty people, i will use gods or god)
1.there is no other God than Jehovah.some eg are john17:3, Isa 44:6, 1Cor8:5. so there cannot be any other entities that is equal or greater then Jehovah God..there are however lesser gods...
2.jesus is from a divine source ie being from Jehovah God..however,he is not the almighty God...he is a mighty god..
...the one reason we are not seeing eye to eye with each other on this is bcuz of our understanding of God n god yes?
... from my understanding,god is an entity with great powers. a mighty being.from the supernatural side,our no1 contestant is satan the devil.from humans side especially from singapre,contestant lky..such being of power that is capable of great feats are gods in their own way is it not?the hebrews uses terms for "GOD" to convey ideas of strength,majesty,dignity n execellence.in contrast to the true God, there are also false gods,some have set themselves up as gods while others were made objects of worship by those who serve and love them..think michael jackson.
... God on the other hand, defines The Supreme Being,whose name is Jehovah/Yahweh
Thanks for the clarification. To me, there is only one God, the supreme being who created heaven and earth, all that is seen and unseen. There are also angels, demons, spirits and what have you; whom you might call gods but whom I would call supernatural beings at best but never gods, even with a small 'g'. I reserve that term for my maker.
Then what about Jesus ? The bible refers to him many times as the God. For instance, even whilst Jesus was still in Mary's womb, Elizabeth had already declared Mary as "the Mother of my Lord " (Elizabeth used the word "Adonai" which means Lord God") (Luke 1:11). There is also the famous John 1:1 which (in most translations) read, "the Word (ie: Jesus) was God". In John 20:28, Thomas exclaimed to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" (literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!"; in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou"). In Acts 3:15, Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life" (referring to Jesus). Only the one true God creates life. And many many more ...
All this will lead us to the doctrine of the Trinity - that the one true God is actually three Persons (the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit) in one true God, all co-eternal and co-equal.
I think we have covered a lot and there is much for readers to chew on. I don't think I'll be able to convince you and you certainly can't convince me with your interpretation of Jesus' divinity. So I'll stop here regarding the Trinity unless other readers want to know more. The last point I want to make regarding this matter is to inform readers that it is a fact that the vast majority of Christians subscribe to and believe in the doctrine of the Trinity (three persons in one true God), whether they are Catholics, Eastern Orthodox or Protestants.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:what i shared with you are also not just my own thoughts but from careful researches on church teachings and things people do and say.people that are also impt figures of churhces.what u have shared is indeed in line with what the church teach.however, what i wana point out is are what the churches teach in line with the bible?
I commend you for your diligence and thirst for God's word.
This leads nicely back to the original questions posed by the thread starter. The reason why there are so many different 'Christian' teachings on morals, what is right and wrong etc is because there are a lot of Christians (especially Protestant Christians by nature of their doctrine) who believe that the bible is the sole source of truth. Sounds good, doesn't it ?
But we forget; who is going to interpret the bible and be the final authority on what is right and wrong ? You ? Me ? If we consult ten pastors from ten different churches , we are liable to get ten different views and beliefs. I would say that it is almost pointless for God to give us the bible without an Authority to teach it.
And did God give us such an Authority ? Yes he did. As I've posted in another thread, Jesus made very powerful statements regarding this teaching authority. He told the apostles that "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). He told Peter that "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mathew 16:19). Jesus also exhorted the apostles to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." (Mathew 28:19).
Does that Authority still exist today ? There will be differing views on this but for me, the answer is that it does - in the Catholic Church.
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Hi domon and Omnia,
I'm a protestant trinitarian Christian. I refer to Rev 22:3, "No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him."
There is clearly one throne, not throne(s). Remember that these are inspired Scriptures, no ambiguity about it.
Remember also that GOD is jealous for His glory and will not share it with anyone else, therefore He would not simply share worship of Himself, be that His Son or whatever.
Remember also that OT (and NT where Jesus affirmed that truth), that ONLY God is to be worshipped, yet throughout NT, we see worship (in one form or another; compulsory and non-compulsory) being offered unto Jesus.
Doctrine of trinity is not pagan, rather it's being truthful to Scriptures and affirming the truth inherent in it. Theologians back then cannot understand it, debated it for centuries, still are, because there is none like GOD, He is unique. There is nothing on earth to which He can be compared.
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Originally posted by Omnia:
Precisely. That is why you cannot (as what you originally did) say Jesus is not the one God just because the verse that describes Jesus as the reflection of God's glory has the word 'reflection' in it.
I'll ask Jesus if I make it to heaven
. But
seriously, just because Jesus used the 'third person voice' to
refer to God doesn't necessarily mean that he is denying his
Godliness. If I was a boy scout and someone tempted me to steal, I
could say to the person, "It is not right for a boy scout to steal
!" - doesn't mean that I'm not a boy scout.There are many other instances in the bible when Jesus made known that he was the God. In fact, that was why the Jews were so furious with him and wanted to kill him because it was blasphemy of the highest order for anyone to claim to be God (Yahweh or Jehovah).
Thanks for the clarification. To me, there is only one God, the supreme being who created heaven and earth, all that is seen and unseen. There are also angels, demons, spirits and what have you; whom you might call gods but whom I would call supernatural beings at best but never gods, even with a small 'g'. I reserve that term for my maker.
Then what about Jesus ? The bible refers to him many times as the God. For instance, even whilst Jesus was still in Mary's womb, Elizabeth had already declared Mary as "the Mother of my Lord " (Elizabeth used the word "Adonai" which means Lord God") (Luke 1:11). There is also the famous John 1:1 which (in most translations) read, "the Word (ie: Jesus) was God". In John 20:28, Thomas exclaimed to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" (literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!"; in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou"). In Acts 3:15, Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life" (referring to Jesus). Only the one true God creates life. And many many more ...
All this will lead us to the doctrine of the Trinity - that the one true God is actually three Persons (the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit) in one true God, all co-eternal and co-equal.
I think we have covered a lot and there is much for readers to chew on. I don't think I'll be able to convince you and you certainly can't convince me with your interpretation of Jesus' divinity. So I'll stop here regarding the Trinity unless other readers want to know more. The last point I want to make regarding this matter is to inform readers that it is a fact that the vast majority of Christians subscribe to and believe in the doctrine of the Trinity (three persons in one true God), whether they are Catholics, Eastern Orthodox or Protestants.
I commend you for your diligence and thirst for God's word.
This leads nicely back to the original questions posed by the thread starter. The reason why there are so many different 'Christian' teachings on morals, what is right and wrong etc is because there are a lot of Christians (especially Protestant Christians by nature of their doctrine) who believe that the bible is the sole source of truth. Sounds good, doesn't it ?
But we forget; who is going to interpret the bible and be the final authority on what is right and wrong ? You ? Me ? If we consult ten pastors from ten different churches , we are liable to get ten different views and beliefs. I would say that it is almost pointless for God to give us the bible without an Authority to teach it.
And did God give us such an Authority ? Yes he did. As I've posted in another thread, Jesus made very powerful statements regarding this teaching authority. He told the apostles that "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). He told Peter that "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mathew 16:19). Jesus also exhorted the apostles to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." (Mathew 28:19).
Does that Authority still exist today ? There will be differing views on this but for me, the answer is that it does - in the Catholic Church.
Precisely. That is why you cannot (as what you originally did) say Jesus is not the one God just because the verse that describes Jesus as the reflection of God's glory has the word 'reflection' in it.
in this case, den we have to look if the teaching of jesus is indeed God consistent in the bible or if he is indeed the son of God...
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There are many other instances in the bible when Jesus made known that he was the God. In fact, that was why the Jews were so furious with him and wanted to kill him because it was blasphemy of the highest order for anyone to claim to be God (Yahweh or Jehovah).
jesus was marked by the pharisees bcuz he profess himself as the son of God,not God..also he was hurting their wallets too much...tats y he has to go..
as for u going to heaven..do hope that in a later part of your life, u will be marked as the 144000 "lucky" ones.otherwise i'll see u in paradise earth if we can get it.. =)
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Thanks for the clarification. To me, there is only one God, the supreme being who created heaven and earth, all that is seen and unseen. There are also angels, demons, spirits and what have you; whom you might call gods but whom I would call supernatural beings at best but never gods, even with a small 'g'. I reserve that term for my maker.
Then what about Jesus ? The bible refers to him many times as the God. For instance, even whilst Jesus was still in Mary's womb, Elizabeth had already declared Mary as "the Mother of my Lord " (Elizabeth used the word "Adonai" which means Lord God") (Luke 1:11). There is also the famous John 1:1 which (in most translations) read, "the Word (ie: Jesus) was God". In John 20:28, Thomas exclaimed to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" (literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!"; in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou"). In Acts 3:15, Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life" (referring to Jesus). Only the one true God creates life. And many many more ...
All this will lead us to the doctrine of the Trinity - that the one true God is actually three Persons (the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit) in one true God, all co-eternal and co-equal.
I think we have covered a lot and there is much for readers to chew on. I don't think I'll be able to convince you and you certainly can't convince me with your interpretation of Jesus' divinity. So I'll stop here regarding the Trinity unless other readers want to know more. The last point I want to make regarding this matter is to inform readers that it is a fact that the vast majority of Christians subscribe to and believe in the doctrine of the Trinity (three persons in one true God), whether they are Catholics, Eastern Orthodox or Protestants.
i cant find the luke1:11..it does not speak of the words u typed..is there an error??im using NIV..
JOhn1:1 is one of my fave..we can skip 1:1 since we all know it..lets go n and see 1:18..it says no 1 ever saw God at any time,the only begotten god who is in a bosom position with the father is the one tat explained him...so we see begotten god..God begets god..the god will explain who God really is..and john 20:31 states jesus is christ,the son of God..when we say son of (...), we do mean the son spawned fom the original and cannot be the same as the original right??given john's intimate r/s with jesus, if truly jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh,john would have wrote that jesus is christ and the son God or the son part of the Godhead..or sth similiar...
thomas exclamination is in harmony with psalms tat powerful entities are known as gods.as jesus is the only begotten son of God,jesus is unique and far more powerful den all other entities ya?..see also ish 9:6,jesus being refered to as mighty God,eternal father,prince of peace..
now shortly b4 jesus died.he was praying to God(this itself is strange..God praying to God,self talk??), thomas heard jesus calling his father as The Only True God..if jesus is Jehovah, he would not be praying at all and definitely wont be calling some1 else true God rite???
john 17:3 talks about jesus prayer for himself to God.and specifically says God has granted him(jesus) authority.does God need to be granted authority???john 20:17 says jesus himself proclaim Jehovah as his God and humans' God..if jesus is God,he cannot proclaim another as his God..tat is wat jesus has said abt the father and son r/s he n Jehovah shares..
now acts 3:15 is simple..God granted jesus that whomsoever believes in jesus will get eternal life..also we see in rev that jesus is given the scroll of life to write names down...
pretty muched agreed on ur last paragraph..n im happy to discussed with u in depth so much..also people must remember that back in jesus days,most jews are doing what the pharisees taught, yet jesus rebuked them..
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I commend you for your diligence and thirst for God's word.
This leads nicely back to the original questions posed by the thread starter. The reason why there are so many different 'Christian' teachings on morals, what is right and wrong etc is because there are a lot of Christians (especially Protestant Christians by nature of their doctrine) who believe that the bible is the sole source of truth. Sounds good, doesn't it ?
But we forget; who is going to interpret the bible and be the final authority on what is right and wrong ? You ? Me ? If we consult ten pastors from ten different churches , we are liable to get ten different views and beliefs. I would say that it is almost pointless for God to give us the bible without an Authority to teach it.
And did God give us such an Authority ? Yes he did. As I've posted in another thread, Jesus made very powerful statements regarding this teaching authority. He told the apostles that "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). He told Peter that "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mathew 16:19). Jesus also exhorted the apostles to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." (Mathew 28:19).
Does that Authority still exist today ? There will be differing views on this but for me, the answer is that it does - in the Catholic Church.
i thank u profusely for your commendations too..as a matter of fact,i do agree with the protestant point of view that the source of truth is the bible,y else give us tat if it aint gonna be useful right?
the authority in qn will be the organization that will adhere strictly to the bible n no i dont mean stoning adulterers in this time a age.u made ur choice with the RCC despite the differences in diff RCC n i commend u in ur faith. and i do hope that u too place more trust in the bible den in humans.
=)
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Originally posted by 24/7:
Hi domon and Omnia,
I'm a protestant trinitarian Christian. I refer to Rev 22:3, "No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him."
There is clearly one throne, not throne(s). Remember that these are inspired Scriptures, no ambiguity about it.
Remember also that GOD is jealous for His glory and will not share it with anyone else, therefore He would not simply share worship of Himself, be that His Son or whatever.
Remember also that OT (and NT where Jesus affirmed that truth), that ONLY God is to be worshipped, yet throughout NT, we see worship (in one form or another; compulsory and non-compulsory) being offered unto Jesus.
Doctrine of trinity is not pagan, rather it's being truthful to Scriptures and affirming the truth inherent in it. Theologians back then cannot understand it, debated it for centuries, still are, because there is none like GOD, He is unique. There is nothing on earth to which He can be compared.
hihi 24/7
hmm.the throne of God and of the lamb..u highlight the singularity of throne..meaning God only has the throne..not the lamb..
God is jealous of worship rendered to him,be it even to his son..so jesus is now not God's son anymore but God himself??so he was lying when he said he was son of God??God canot lie too..abit self contradictory?
in OT,only Jehovah?Yahweh the father was in the main pic.jesus affirmed watever was told there was the truth for he was a witness for his father right? If God is trinitarian like other paganistic religions, would not God already made clear to his people b4 jesus is sent?God sending jesus down to tell people that jesus is the son of God yet also him will only serve to confuse people,we also must know that God is not a confusing God..
in Heb 1:6, angels were instructed do "worship" jesus or do obeisance to jesus.Matt 14:33,jesus' disciples are said to have worshipped him or showed reverence to him,bowed b4 him,fell at his feet
Greek word for worship is pro.sky.ne'o, also used for meaning the custom of prostrating oneself b4 another n kissing his feet,hem of garment,ground.this proskyneo was the word at Matt 14:33; at hebs1:6 was wat the angels did to jesus,Gen 22:5 was what abraham did to God and Gen23:7 was wat abraham did to other people in line to their customs..1kings 1:23 describes nathan's action on approaching King david..same action done to people and to God..so its the action and the heart condition that determines who are really being worshipped and who are greeted in reverence ya??
trinity doctrine is pagan by nature.would like to share some stuff with u, in ancient eygpt,traid of horus, osiris,isis are worshipped as 3 in 1..2000bc..babylonians had ishtar,sin,shamesh as 3in1, 2000bc..palmyra, moon god,sun god and lord of heavens as 3in1, 1st century ad...india has triune hindu godhead too..so does buddhist(they even have 4in1)...greece n rome also practiced forms of trinity b4 the RCC was born..
indeed wat historian Will Durant said was true, christianity did not destroy paganism but rather, adopted it.btw, eygptian theologians loved combining 3 gods into 1 and address them in singularand treat them as a single being..pretty familiar rite?
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Originally posted by 24/7:
Hi domon and Omnia,
I'm a protestant trinitarian Christian. I refer to Rev 22:3, "No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him."
There is clearly one throne, not throne(s). Remember that these are inspired Scriptures, no ambiguity about it.
Remember also that GOD is jealous for His glory and will not share it with anyone else, therefore He would not simply share worship of Himself, be that His Son or whatever.
Remember also that OT (and NT where Jesus affirmed that truth), that ONLY God is to be worshipped, yet throughout NT, we see worship (in one form or another; compulsory and non-compulsory) being offered unto Jesus.
Doctrine of trinity is not pagan, rather it's being truthful to Scriptures and affirming the truth inherent in it. Theologians back then cannot understand it, debated it for centuries, still are, because there is none like GOD, He is unique. There is nothing on earth to which He can be compared.
hihi 24/7
hmm.the throne of God and of the lamb..u highlight the singularity of throne..meaning God only has the throne..not the lamb..
God is jealous of worship rendered to him,be it even to his son..so jesus is now not God's son anymore but God himself??so he was lying when he said he was son of God??God canot lie too..abit self contradictory?
in OT,only Jehovah?Yahweh the father was in the main pic.jesus affirmed watever was told there was the truth for he was a witness for his father right? If God is trinitarian like other paganistic religions, would not God already made clear to his people b4 jesus is sent?God sending jesus down to tell people that jesus is the son of God yet also him will only serve to confuse people,we also must know that God is not a confusing God..
in Heb 1:6, angels were instructed do "worship" jesus or do obeisance to jesus.Matt 14:33,jesus' disciples are said to have worshipped him or showed reverence to him,bowed b4 him,fell at his feet
Greek word for worship is pro.sky.ne'o, also used for meaning the custom of prostrating oneself b4 another n kissing his feet,hem of garment,ground.this proskyneo was the word at Matt 14:33; at hebs1:6 was wat the angels did to jesus,Gen 22:5 was what abraham did to God and Gen23:7 was wat abraham did to other people in line to their customs..1kings 1:23 describes nathan's action on approaching King david..same action done to people and to God..so its the action and the heart condition that determines who are really being worshipped and who are greeted in reverence ya??
trinity doctrine is pagan by nature.would like to share some stuff with u, in ancient eygpt,traid of horus, osiris,isis are worshipped as 3 in 1..2000bc..babylonians had ishtar,sin,shamesh as 3in1, 2000bc..palmyra, moon god,sun god and lord of heavens as 3in1, 1st century ad...india has triune hindu godhead too..so does buddhist(they even have 4in1)...greece n rome also practiced forms of trinity b4 the RCC was born..
indeed wat historian Will Durant said was true, christianity did not destroy paganism but rather, adopted it.btw, eygptian theologians loved combining 3 gods into 1 and address them in singularand treat them as a single being..pretty familiar rite?
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Hi domon,
Revelations 22:3 ... the way i see it:
There is one throne. God is on the throne. The lamb is on the same throne. The way the verse is written is meant to show that both are together on the throne. I affirm the singularity which u read. How else do you interpret the word "and", when used after a singular object is described?
In that same verse, "and his servants shall serve him". God and the lamb are referred to as "him" not "them". Singular object. This singular frame of reference is used regularly throughout Revelations.
Jesus is God's son, not God himself. Equal with God and of the same substance. Never was this verse meant to say that God and the lamb are the same. Just because nothing on earth can adequately represent the picture, doesnt mean we should use alternative interpretations to explain them away. Can you answer this question: To whom or what can you compare GOD with?
In regards to paganism, my response is : So what??
Just because something resembles paganism, it doesnt mean we've the right to categorically reject it. Instead, look at the Bible to see if GOD teaches it in His word and whether it fits in with the whole counsel of the Word of God. Pagans also believe in the concept of GOD, does that mean God is not true? In that case, the score should read as atheists -1, christians - 0. No, right?
The way i understand those religions u mentioned, they teach tritheism, not trinitarianism. HUGE difference. Similarities in name only, not substance.
Proskeuneo ... I agree with u on the way the word is used differs with the attitude behind it. But if i refer u to John 4:23, where Satan asks of Jesus for that same proskeuneo worship, do u still think its a reverential greeting that he demands?
In fact, if you look at Luke 17:11-19, in particular verse 16, do u still think the healed leper's action only meant to give Jesus a reverential greeting?
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lalalala
lol seems like i missed out alot.
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Originally posted by 24/7:
Hi domon,
Revelations 22:3 ... the way i see it:
There is one throne. God is on the throne. The lamb is on the same throne. The way the verse is written is meant to show that both are together on the throne. I affirm the singularity which u read. How else do you interpret the word "and", when used after a singular object is described?
In that same verse, "and his servants shall serve him". God and the lamb are referred to as "him" not "them". Singular object. This singular frame of reference is used regularly throughout Revelations.
Jesus is God's son, not God himself. Equal with God and of the same substance. Never was this verse meant to say that God and the lamb are the same. Just because nothing on earth can adequately represent the picture, doesnt mean we should use alternative interpretations to explain them away. Can you answer this question: To whom or what can you compare GOD with?
In regards to paganism, my response is : So what??
Just because something resembles paganism, it doesnt mean we've the right to categorically reject it. Instead, look at the Bible to see if GOD teaches it in His word and whether it fits in with the whole counsel of the Word of God. Pagans also believe in the concept of GOD, does that mean God is not true? In that case, the score should read as atheists -1, christians - 0. No, right?
The way i understand those religions u mentioned, they teach tritheism, not trinitarianism. HUGE difference. Similarities in name only, not substance.
Proskeuneo ... I agree with u on the way the word is used differs with the attitude behind it. But if i refer u to John 4:23, where Satan asks of Jesus for that same proskeuneo worship, do u still think its a reverential greeting that he demands?
In fact, if you look at Luke 17:11-19, in particular verse 16, do u still think the healed leper's action only meant to give Jesus a reverential greeting?
btw, it is also written in rev that the lamb was at some point sitting at the right hand of God right??so the trinitarian God is also able to split the son part of himself out to sit at his own right hand too??
now u said jesus is God's son and not God himself, yet he is still equal to God and of the same substance??dont u think u not only sound contradictory to trinitarian teaching that jesus is also fully god?and also sound very much like the jewish pharisees that says jesus is blaspheming when jesus claimed to be the son of God and tried to make himself equal to God..
are you not of the same substance of your father?? ie human flesh..is it that different in the case where jesus being the only begotten son of God to be made of the same vibrant energy?
u also said the lamb and God is different which is also my point..the lamb is clearly jesus while God is clearly God..abba father..personal name is Jehovah or Yahweh..not the same guy in some mysterious Godhead.
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In regards to paganism, my response is : So what??
Just because something resembles paganism, it doesnt mean we've the right to categorically reject it. Instead, look at the Bible to see if GOD teaches it in His word and whether it fits in with the whole counsel of the Word of God. Pagans also believe in the concept of GOD, does that mean God is not true? In that case, the score should read as atheists -1, christians - 0. No, right?
The way i understand those religions u mentioned, they teach tritheism, not trinitarianism. HUGE difference. Similarities in name only, not substance.
Proskeuneo ... I agree with u on the way the word is used differs with the attitude behind it. But if i refer u to John 4:23, where Satan asks of Jesus for that same proskeuneo worship, do u still think its a reverential greeting that he demands?
In fact, if you look at Luke 17:11-19, in particular verse 16, do u still think the healed leper's action only meant to give Jesus a reverential greeting?
i am actually pretty disappted in your nonchalent response to pagansim in christianity.have u considered that nth in the bible truth,the way that God should be worshipped is totally different in all paganistic way in esscene?
i was looking into God's word the bible and dicern that church teachings actualy differ greatly from scriptural truth.hence my standpoint. i m not rejecting churches because they kinda resemble pagans, but because they defiled God's word.think idols,intercessor besides jesus,rosaries beads.are these not banned in bible truth??are these also not the common items found in churches??see my point?
perharps u can enlighten me in the diff of trinitism and triwateverthatwastism.looks pretty much the same to me actually..3 gods merged into 1 and addressed as a singular being..3 distinct features yet one godhead..would thank you in advance..
im glad at least we agree on worship part.. and u just answered your own qns.when satan asked jesus to worship satan,definitely satan meant the type of worship,be it the outside or heart condition that is to be rendered to God.but, we are after all discussing a rather diff situation here.of those that "worshipped" jesus, jesus did not asked for it like satan. and the people that "worship" jesus knew if jesus was man or God.if they know him to be God, why wasnt there any temple built in jesus' name with jesus's statues inside like mordern churches right after jesus died??instead,it took about 4-5 hundred years later that such buildings were built?
to narrow it down,look at luke 17:15-18. the healed samaritian came back praising God (entity 1) in a loud voice 1st. then he threw himself down(ouch) at jesus'(entity 2) feet. and thank him. it is perfectly in harmony with jesus teaching to praise and worship God(entity 1).the samaritian fell at jesus' feet was clearly a profused thanking to a great person.
later in verse 18, jesus asked if there isnt any other(the 9 lepers) coming back to praise God except the samaritian.now if jesus is God,would he have said is there none other who would come back and praise me????notice always jesus does not claim any credit for the good works he done but always attribute them to the rightful one to be praised,that is Jehovah God.in fact when people say jesus is good, he rebuked them saying no1 is good but the father.if jesus is God, does he not rightly deserve such praises and does he need to direct the praises to some1 else???or maybe its just some mystical trinitarian behaviour being exhibited?
my question is, who will want us not to know about God despite even God's own son came down and clarify the true identity of God.
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hi domon
btw, it is also written in rev that the lamb was at some point sitting at the right hand of God right??so the trinitarian God is also able to split the son part of himself out to sit at his own right hand too??
The Trinity does not divide God into three parts. The Bible is clear that all three Persons are each one hundred percent God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all fully God. For example, it says of Christ that “in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9). We should not think of God as like a "pie" cut into three pieces, each piece representing a Person. This would make each Person less than fully God and thus not God at all. Rather, “the being of each Person is equal to the whole being of God.” The divine essence is not something that is divided between the three persons, but is fully in all three persons without being divided into "parts."
Thus, the Son is not one-third of the being of God, He is all of the being of God. The Father is not one-third of the being of God, He is all of the being of God. And likewise with the Holy Spirit. Thus, as Wayne Grudem writes, “When we speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together we are not speaking of any greater being than when we speak of the Father alone, the Son alone, or the Holy Spirit alone.”.now u said jesus is God's son and not God himself, yet he is still equal to God and of the same substance??dont u think u not only sound contradictory to trinitarian teaching that jesus is also fully god?and also sound very much like the jewish pharisees that says jesus is blaspheming when jesus claimed to be the son of God and tried to make himself equal to God..
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Jesus is not God the Father but He is God the Son. Titus 2:13 and Phil 2:6. Refer to above
are you not of the same substance of your father?? ie human flesh..is it that different in the case where jesus being the only begotten son of God to be made of the same vibrant energy?
The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.
The personhood of each member of the Trinity means that each Person has a distinct center of consciousness. Thus, they relate to each other personally—the Father regards Himself as “I,” while He regards the Son and Holy Spirit as “You.” Likewise the Son regards Himself as “I,” but the Son and the Holy Spirit as “You.”u also said the lamb and God is different which is also my point..the lamb is clearly jesus while God is clearly God..abba father..personal name is Jehovah or Yahweh..not the same guy in some mysterious Godhead.
Refer to above.