Are Christians intolerant of other faiths?
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i think modern christianity is bullshit. it is long corrupted from the initial teachings of Christ.
the church elders may be figures of authority in the religion, but they, were certainly not saints (at least when they were alive), and are as vulnerable to corruption and sins as any other person on earth.
So, what makes you think that THEIR views are right? the Bible is afterall, the works of mortal men, sinners. The clergy was as involved in politics and power struggle along with the politicians of europe, for the past 2000 years. they each have their political agenda and motivation, and their words may not really be the Truth.
For example. i read somewhere that during the middle age, the clerics listed baby rabbits as plants, so that they can continue eating meat on a religious day(where they are forbidden from eating any animal.
So,do you trust the words of these same people.
why did the crusades eventually fail? cos of the disunity of the same organisation: the church.
these men they burn "heretics" at stake for heresy, when they too are altering, modfiying and "refining" the teachings themselves for their own benefits.
and the words of Christ's disciples =/= words of Christ.
and there is alot of logical fallacy concerning Christian faith. why do Jesus have to worship a God when He is God? from my understanding of the concept of the Holy Trinity, even though they are 3 persons, they are essentially 1 and the same, and so there's no need for Jesus to worship God or God in another forms, since He is already God.
for more debates, please consult this site:
look in the atheist section of this christian website, to see their arguments against atheism. i don't find their arguments very convincing nor logical.
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u dun find them convincing doesnt mean they r not convincing wad...anyway, to atheists like u who go round blaspheming religions, i have nth to say to u...go n be ur own god...cheers!!!
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Originally posted by deathmaster:
i think modern christianity is bullshit. it is long corrupted from the initial teachings of Christ.
the church elders may be figures of authority in the religion, but they, were certainly not saints (at least when they were alive), and are as vulnerable to corruption and sins as any other person on earth.
So, what makes you think that THEIR views are right? the Bible is afterall, the works of mortal men, sinners. The clergy was as involved in politics and power struggle along with the politicians of europe, for the past 2000 years. they each have their political agenda and motivation, and their words may not really be the Truth.
For example. i read somewhere that during the middle age, the clerics listed baby rabbits as plants, so that they can continue eating meat on a religious day(where they are forbidden from eating any animal.
So,do you trust the words of these same people.
why did the crusades eventually fail? cos of the disunity of the same organisation: the church.
these men they burn "heretics" at stake for heresy, when they too are altering, modfiying and "refining" the teachings themselves for their own benefits.
and the words of Christ's disciples =/= words of Christ.
and there is alot of logical fallacy concerning Christian faith. why do Jesus have to worship a God when He is God? from my understanding of the concept of the Holy Trinity, even though they are 3 persons, they are essentially 1 and the same, and so there's no need for Jesus to worship God or God in another forms, since He is already God.
for more debates, please consult this site:
look in the atheist section of this christian website, to see their arguments against atheism. i don't find their arguments very convincing nor logical.
I agree with what you are saying. Some missionaries say that if we dont beleive in jesus we will go to hell, but like someone else said that doesnt mean we need to go through the church =) They want us to join church or else we wont go heaven but hell. Which phrase of the bible stated that?
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Originally posted by despondent:
u dun find them convincing doesnt mean they r not convincing wad…anyway, to atheists like u who go round blaspheming religions, i have nth to say to u…go n be ur own god…cheers!!!
i like the way you phrase. Although i ain't atheist, i believe im the only one that can save myself. I create my own happiness and sadness within myself. Im a lamp upon myself. No one judges me as fairly as myself. =)
*Dont call me self centred because im not selfish to any god, and i give them the upmost respect.*
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despondent u sound like a fanatic.
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Hi deathmaster (also also responding to the thread from Wilsonhao),
Some Christians may find your words quite strong and may even feel offended as they may feel their religion is under attack. Actually I feel Christians need not feel so defensive. What you have raised are logical questions and isssues afterall. Defensiveness arises from ignorance of our own religion and the history of the Christianity.
I am a Christian, and I feel if Christians want to share their faiths with non-Christians, they should not be afraid to look at these questions and respond to them logically, intelligently and honestly.
If a Christian gets worked up, and tells the non-Christian to go F-off (yup, I can see something like that in this forum
) then it is shows a certain small-mindedness, and is against the spirit of inclusiveness that Jesus teaches. Certainly, Christians do not have all the answers and it is ok to say so.When some Christians cannot respond to questions, they continue to insist that they are right and get emotional and angry. They alienate the very people whom they want to share their faith with. It is very childish to say: "If you do not accept what I say or what (I think) the bible say, then you are condamned, too bad for you!" I believe this is something Jesus will never say to someone who is a sincerely spiritual seeker - even if he is not a Christian.
Some Christians influenced by fundamental thinking believe that the bible contains the direct inerrant (cannot be wrong) word of God and take a literal reading of the bible (that is, they do not accept symbolic meaning and ignore the cultural and personal biases of the authors or the historial differences). However, there are many liberal Christians at the other end of the spectrum that believe that the 66 separate books in the bible were written by humans who can make mistakes and who have biases, and yet these Christians remain committed to their faith because they believe that God is still speaking to them -they do not believe that God only revealed himself to a single people at a single point in history and then speak no more.
Its very funny coz in this forum, someone (a Christian) said that Christians should not hold joss sticks. When I quoted from the bible to show evidence that incense was offered even to baby Jesus by the 3 wise men, he just said I misquoted the bible verses out of context, did not elaborate why he said that, and said he will not respond anymore unless something productive was being said. (see my post on 6 Sep 12.47am).
So this is the stand of some Christians - they refuse to engage in discussions and dialogue - they get angry when challenged. "I am right, you are wrong. I am saved and if you do not accept what I say then you are damned. I do not want to hear any more and that is the end of the story."
Deep inside, such Christians feel very insecure when some issues regarding their faith are being challenged because they (wrongly) fear that once they are proven wrong on a certain issue, their faith will crumble, and maybe they feel they have nothing left. Therefore, they demand certainty so they can hang on to their fragile hope, because once hope is gone, they fear they loose all.
I know - because I was once there. But it does not have to be so - as long as we are prepared for a paradiagm shift. I look at all these violence in Christian past, the biases of the writes in the bible, and I feel all the more so thankful for the essential things that Jesus teach as they are timeless. My faith is stronger because what I have left after sifting through all the shaft, are the seeds that transcends the bible, humans errors and biases, and transcends time.
Not all Christians are so afraid and so narrow minded. Only those who are afraid and who want certainty in an uncertain world feel the need for everything to be cast in stone.
*But I am not quite sure about the "rabbit are plants" story, not heard it before, haha. It sounds interesting - any idea the story from what source?
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Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:
Hi deathmaster (also also responding to the thread from Wilsonhao),
Some Christians may find your words quite strong and may even feel offended as they may feel their religion is under attack. Actually I feel Christians need not feel so defensive. What you have raised are logical questions and isssues afterall. Defensiveness arises from ignorance of our own religion and the history of the Christianity.
I am a Christian, and I feel if Christians want to share their faiths with non-Christians, they should not be afraid to look at these questions and respond to them logically, intelligently and honestly.
If a Christian gets worked up, and tells the non-Christian to go F-off (yup, I can see something like that in this forum
) then it is shows a certain small-mindedness, and
is against the spirit of inclusiveness that Jesus teaches.
Certainly, Christians do not have all the answers and it is ok to
say so.When some Christians cannot respond to questions, they continue to insist that they are right and get emotional and angry. They alienate the very people whom they want to share their faith with. It is very childish to say: "If you do not accept what I say or what (I think) the bible say, then you are condamned, too bad for you!" I believe this is something Jesus will never say to someone who is a sincerely spiritual seeker - even if he is not a Christian.
Some Christians influenced by fundamental thinking believe that the bible contains the direct inerrant (cannot be wrong) word of God and take a literal reading of the bible (that is, they do not accept symbolic meaning and ignore the cultural and personal biases of the authors or the historial differences). However, there are many liberal Christians at the other end of the spectrum that believe that the 66 separate books in the bible were written by humans who can make mistakes and who have biases, and yet these Christians remain committed to their faith because they believe that God is still speaking to them -they do not believe that God only revealed himself to a single people at a single point in history and then speak no more.
Its very funny coz in this forum, someone (a Christian) said that Christians should not hold joss sticks. When I quoted from the bible to show evidence that incense was offered even to baby Jesus by the 3 wise men, he just said I misquoted the bible verses out of context, did not elaborate why he said that, and said he will not respond anymore unless something productive was being said. (see my post on 6 Sep 12.47am).
So this is the stand of some Christians - they refuse to engage in discussions and dialogue - they get angry when challenged. "I am right, you are wrong. I am saved and if you do not accept what I say then you are damned. I do not want to hear any more and that is the end of the story."
Deep inside, such Christians feel very insecure when some issues regarding their faith are being challenged because they (wrongly) fear that once they are proven wrong on a certain issue, their faith will crumble, and maybe they feel they have nothing left. Therefore, they demand certainty so they can hang on to their fragile hope, because once hope is gone, they fear they loose all.
I know - because I was once there. But it does not have to be so - as long as we are prepared for a paradiagm shift. I look at all these violence in Christian past, the biases of the writes in the bible, and I feel all the more so thankful for the essential things that Jesus teach as they are timeless. My faith is stronger because what I have left after sifting through all the shaft, are the seeds that transcends the bible, humans errors and biases, and transcends time.
Not all Christians are so afraid and so narrow minded. Only those who are afraid and who want certainty in an uncertain world feel the need for everything to be cast in stone.
*But I am not quite sure about the "rabbit are plants" story, not heard it before, haha. It sounds interesting - any idea the story from what source?
I give you my fullest support and respect =)
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Originally posted by newcomer:
correct me if i'm wrong but does God not forgives?God forgives..but not all sins..if u have knowledge of the sin yet do so willingly then tat sin is eternal..forgot which verse of the bible this is frm, but i do remember reading it..
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Originally posted by deathmaster:
i think modern christianity is bullshit. it is long corrupted from the initial teachings of Christ.
the church elders may be figures of authority in the religion, but they, were certainly not saints (at least when they were alive), and are as vulnerable to corruption and sins as any other person on earth.
So, what makes you think that THEIR views are right? the Bible is afterall, the works of mortal men, sinners. The clergy was as involved in politics and power struggle along with the politicians of europe, for the past 2000 years. they each have their political agenda and motivation, and their words may not really be the Truth.
For example. i read somewhere that during the middle age, the clerics listed baby rabbits as plants, so that they can continue eating meat on a religious day(where they are forbidden from eating any animal.
So,do you trust the words of these same people.
why did the crusades eventually fail? cos of the disunity of the same organisation: the church.
these men they burn "heretics" at stake for heresy, when they too are altering, modfiying and "refining" the teachings themselves for their own benefits.
and the words of Christ's disciples =/= words of Christ.
and there is alot of logical fallacy concerning Christian faith. why do Jesus have to worship a God when He is God? from my understanding of the concept of the Holy Trinity, even though they are 3 persons, they are essentially 1 and the same, and so there's no need for Jesus to worship God or God in another forms, since He is already God.
for more debates, please consult this site:
look in the atheist section of this christian website, to see their arguments against atheism. i don't find their arguments very convincing nor logical.
finally someone who knows more about God then all the self proclaim christians...however, there are certain stuff u miss out as well...the clerics are the babylonia the great harlot as proclaim in the rev book...they constantly seek attn from political powers and try to gain powers over men..in fact,the infamous ww1 n 2 were fought due to diff faction of the church..the logic about trinity is that there is no logic..ask anyone without bible knowledge to read the bible and they will say God is God ,jesus is jesus,not some mystical Godhead..ask ppl with some bible knowledge n they cant answer trinity too..
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Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:
Hi deathmaster (also also responding to the thread from Wilsonhao),
Some Christians may find your words quite strong and may even feel offended as they may feel their religion is under attack. Actually I feel Christians need not feel so defensive. What you have raised are logical questions and isssues afterall. Defensiveness arises from ignorance of our own religion and the history of the Christianity.
I am a Christian, and I feel if Christians want to share their faiths with non-Christians, they should not be afraid to look at these questions and respond to them logically, intelligently and honestly.
If a Christian gets worked up, and tells the non-Christian to go F-off (yup, I can see something like that in this forum
) then it is shows a certain small-mindedness, and
is against the spirit of inclusiveness that Jesus teaches.
Certainly, Christians do not have all the answers and it is ok to
say so.When some Christians cannot respond to questions, they continue to insist that they are right and get emotional and angry. They alienate the very people whom they want to share their faith with. It is very childish to say: "If you do not accept what I say or what (I think) the bible say, then you are condamned, too bad for you!" I believe this is something Jesus will never say to someone who is a sincerely spiritual seeker - even if he is not a Christian.
Some Christians influenced by fundamental thinking believe that the bible contains the direct inerrant (cannot be wrong) word of God and take a literal reading of the bible (that is, they do not accept symbolic meaning and ignore the cultural and personal biases of the authors or the historial differences). However, there are many liberal Christians at the other end of the spectrum that believe that the 66 separate books in the bible were written by humans who can make mistakes and who have biases, and yet these Christians remain committed to their faith because they believe that God is still speaking to them -they do not believe that God only revealed himself to a single people at a single point in history and then speak no more.
Its very funny coz in this forum, someone (a Christian) said that Christians should not hold joss sticks. When I quoted from the bible to show evidence that incense was offered even to baby Jesus by the 3 wise men, he just said I misquoted the bible verses out of context, did not elaborate why he said that, and said he will not respond anymore unless something productive was being said. (see my post on 6 Sep 12.47am).
So this is the stand of some Christians - they refuse to engage in discussions and dialogue - they get angry when challenged. "I am right, you are wrong. I am saved and if you do not accept what I say then you are damned. I do not want to hear any more and that is the end of the story."
Deep inside, such Christians feel very insecure when some issues regarding their faith are being challenged because they (wrongly) fear that once they are proven wrong on a certain issue, their faith will crumble, and maybe they feel they have nothing left. Therefore, they demand certainty so they can hang on to their fragile hope, because once hope is gone, they fear they loose all.
I know - because I was once there. But it does not have to be so - as long as we are prepared for a paradiagm shift. I look at all these violence in Christian past, the biases of the writes in the bible, and I feel all the more so thankful for the essential things that Jesus teach as they are timeless. My faith is stronger because what I have left after sifting through all the shaft, are the seeds that transcends the bible, humans errors and biases, and transcends time.
Not all Christians are so afraid and so narrow minded. Only those who are afraid and who want certainty in an uncertain world feel the need for everything to be cast in stone.
*But I am not quite sure about the "rabbit are plants" story, not heard it before, haha. It sounds interesting - any idea the story from what source?
days before jesus,sacred services rendered to God include incense offerings by means of wave offerings,this clearly shows some form of joss sticks were involve.ltr, jesus set the standard as to how to worship God..the point argued here is if christians should hold joss sticks in terms of cultural traditions as well as not to defy parental wishes..this is therefore wrong..for it also constitudes to performing acts of worship to the dead,traditional gods,goddesses.wrong also to defy God in order not to defy parents..so a simple truth gets twisted due to inaccurate knowledge of the bible..
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Originally posted by wilsonhao:
I agree with what you are saying. Some missionaries say that if we dont beleive in jesus we will go to hell, but like someone else said that doesnt mean we need to go through the church =) They want us to join church or else we wont go heaven but hell. Which phrase of the bible stated that?
instead,the bible says that our works, faith, n acceptence of christs as redemer and Jehovah as God is impt.also, many verses actually says that brothers(of the same faith) should congregate often so all can benefit.
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
days before jesus,sacred services rendered to God include incense offerings by means of wave offerings,this clearly shows some form of joss sticks were involve.ltr, jesus set the standard as to how to worship God..the point argued here is if christians should hold joss sticks in terms of cultural traditions as well as not to defy parental wishes..this is therefore wrong..for it also constitudes to performing acts of worship to the dead,traditional gods,goddesses.wrong also to defy God in order not to defy parents..so a simple truth gets twisted due to inaccurate knowledge of the bible..
I agree with you that if one is holding the joss sticks to worship the dead or the idols, so as to comply with parental wishes, then the Christian had better exercise caution.
But my point in highlighting that incense is also found in Jewish and Christian heritage is that some Christians are not aware of that and simply condemn this thinking it is a purely Chinese religious or even Buddhist practise (actually it is not a Buddhist tradition but some Christians think it is). Symbols are arbitrary- eg one thing means something to one culture but it may mean entire different thing to another.
Eg, during Roman era, Romans had a superstitious belief that there is a direct connection between the third finger to a women's heart. Thus, they put a ring on that finger (the ring finger) to hold a woman's love. This is a pagan practise but Christians (as a heritage of the Roman culture) adopted this and now almost every Christian put a ring on the ring finger in Church wedding as a symbol of love. The pagan and superstitious meaning is no longer there. The symbolic meaning of the ring has changed.
Thus the symbol of the incense or joss sticks need not neccessary have the same meaning to 2 different people.
I feel that the most important thing the motive of the person doing the action. If one is holding the joss sticks as a sign of respect (similar to an offering of flower or candles in a Christian funeral or church), then there is nothing wrong. Just like bowing to the picture of the dead at a wake, if one bows in respect just like one bows to a Japanese, then there is nothing wrong.
In the days before Jesus, Jewish customs and traditions were very external and elaborate. This came about after the Jewish were concquered by the Babylonians in 598 BC, when their temple in Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jewish population deported to Babylon. The only way the Jews can keep their identity in a strange land among strange people and customs was to enshrine all the traditions and keep their identity intact.
In the post-exilic period when the Jews returned to Jerusalem, this was no longer necessary. But the religious leaders such as the Pharisees and Sadduccees continue with the insistence of external form rather than the spirit of the act. This was something that Jesus came to overturn.
Jesus said it is the heart and motive that matters eg when you pray or fast, do so privately and our God in heaven will know, no need to do it at the street corner where everyone will see. Similarly, I draw the conclusion that even if we offer joss stick, flower, candles or bow at a funeral, if one knows we are doing it as a sign of respect, I feel confidant that God knows.
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
instead,the bible says that our works, faith, n acceptence of christs as redemer and Jehovah as God is impt.also, many verses actually says that brothers(of the same faith) should congregate often so all can benefit.
yes, but doesnt work always like that. Look at USA for eg. The whites are christians, the blacks are also christians. But there is discrimination. if they are christians, they should be brothers rite?
And in local, i know of many peeps going to church to congregate to benefit from getting gfs and see pretty girls.
I admit that the bible contain many meaningful phrase that brings hope to people. But for too long religion is being taken advantaged of by human.
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Originally posted by wilsonhao:
yes, but doesnt work always like that. Look at USA for eg. The whites are christians, the blacks are also christians. But there is discrimination. if they are christians, they should be brothers rite?
And in local, i know of many peeps going to church to congregate to benefit from getting gfs and see pretty girls.
I admit that the bible contain many meaningful phrase that brings hope to people. But for too long religion is being taken advantaged of by human.
Hi Wilsonhao,
It is sad but true, not just in Christianity but in any religion that abuse can happen, as you say, taken advantaged of by human. I can quote more examples from Christian history beause I am more familar with it.
In the Middle Ages in Europe, the Pope then actually launched the Crusades - a series of wars, to reclaim Jerusalem which had fallen to the Muslims. Now, when one reads Jesus words that the kingdom of God is not a physical thing that you can see here or there but it is in our hearts, we know that we should not be attached to physical thing. But then human weakness comes in and psycho the Christians to do their "godly" duty to reclaim Jerusalem. In the process, so many innnocent people are killed. Historians have also indicated that Christians killed their own Christians eg they killed the dark-skinned Coptic Christians in Egypt too. It is so sad.
Actually in modern day, you can see a parallel. Not many people are aware that the current US President George Bush have a lot of support from the conservative Evangelical Christians in the bible belt of USA (also known as the corn belt eg mid west where there are many farming and cattle rearing communities). This support base helped bring him to power.
And these are the same people who supported the war on Iraq (a Muslim country) as being the right "godly" thing to do.
Is it really?
*As for people go to church for the gf thing, actually I am ok with it lah. Coz I feel since humans are social beings and need to interact . And the church besides being a religious instituition is also a social instituition (those who do not admit it are really BS lah) - a platform for people to interact. No harm lah. But as long as the person is honest to himself and acknowleges his motives that besides looking for spiritual food, he is also looking for gf, no problem lor. Just don't go around raving like religious fanatic under the guise of something else, I am ok with it. Wanting a gf or a bf even in church is ok, it's just being human - it's in our genes.
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Originally posted by wilsonhao:
yes, but doesnt work always like that. Look at USA for eg. The whites are christians, the blacks are also christians. But there is discrimination. if they are christians, they should be brothers rite?
And in local, i know of many peeps going to church to congregate to benefit from getting gfs and see pretty girls.
I admit that the bible contain many meaningful phrase that brings hope to people. But for too long religion is being taken advantaged of by human.
i agree with what u say here..however,that doesnt mean God is responsible for the abuse of his word by men right?men chose to abuse his word for their own needs..i understand how u feel as i felt the same too..tink also of the hemp plant,its a useful material for many things,but people also abuse it to get high with..hemp also created by God,so also God's fault if people abuse it mehz?not fair right?
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ha
there are so many teenage christians around
but i dare say none, none of them know about the faith
and none of them read anything about the bible
all go there for? making friends, to improve their low self esteem, to find girlfriend, etc
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Originally posted by Zerg:
Does Bible mention how Satan is born ? or How God is born?
You have ask an intelligent question that thousands of people have already asked before . You also know that no one has the answer.
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Originally posted by Danielhuang88:
My point is, christianity, is not very tolerant of other faiths. Ever tried converting from a christian to something else? Why not go to your pastor/priest and hear what he has to say.
There's no need go the the pastor because he/she knows that the pastor will advise against it. Just leave the church or the religion.
Since free will is given to man, God does not assert His power over man's choice.
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
i agree with what u say here..however,that doesnt mean God is responsible for the abuse of his word by men right?men chose to abuse his word for their own needs..i understand how u feel as i felt the same too..tink also of the hemp plant,its a useful material for many things,but people also abuse it to get high with..hemp also created by God,so also God's fault if people abuse it mehz?not fair right?
nobody is blaming god =)Religion becomes corrupted because of human, isnt it?
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Originally posted by rummage:
ha
there are so many teenage christians around
but i dare say none, none of them know about the faith
and none of them read anything about the bible
all go there for? making friends, to improve their low self esteem, to find girlfriend, etc
sure have abit know sth about their own faith de..faithful ones aside, oso must need "product knowledge" if wan find gf there mahz..
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
You have ask an intelligent question that thousands of people have already asked before . You also know that no one has the answer.
i did answer his questions..based on the bible..
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Originally posted by wilsonhao:
nobody is blaming god =)Religion becomes corrupted because of human, isnt it?
agreed..humans..they screw up everything..even light bulbs have to be screwed on...
jus wanna caution you against blaming God mahz =)
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Originally posted by wilsonhao:
nobody is blaming god =)Religion becomes corrupted because of human, isnt it?
agreed..humans..they screw up everything..even light bulbs have to be screwed on...
jus wanna caution you against blaming God mahz =)