In the Straits Times today, there is an article on page B5 titled Clergy "wary of inter-faith talks".
The article talks about a research done by sociologist and also Pantecostal church pastor Dr Matthew Mathews who found that most Christian clergy fear inter-faith dialogues as they worry this will compromise their faith.
The article also quoted Dr Matthews as noting that: Christianity in Singapore tends to be conservative, evangelical, "embracing an exclusivst stance" in viewing other religions.
The study also indicated that 41.5% of clergy said they find it difficult to collaborate with a non-religious leader for a charity drive.
What are your views? Firstly, are fundamental and hence less tolerant elements of Christianity like those form the Evangelical churches in USA entering mainstream Christianity in Singapore? Many non-Christians complain about being constantly harrassed by Christian friends to attend church events and to convert. The general feeling is that Christians refuse to leave them alone eventhough they already have a chosen spiritual path which they are happy with. When does Christian sharing crossover to disrepect and intolerance of people's faiths?
Secondly, if Christians feel that their chosen path is the right one, is there a need to fear inter-religious dialogue? Is there a fear in co-operating with other religious groups for charity events? Afterall, it is about helping the needy. Even Jesus said that the Samaritan was a true neighbour as he has helped a man in need, eventhough Samarians are not a "chosen" people like the Jews and are detested by the Jews as they are of mixed Jewish and gentile heritage .
I guess in our mordern day equivalent and lingo, Christians can be considered the "chosen people" to spread God's message and non-Christians are the olden days equivalent of gentiles prior to Jesus' ascension to heaven. So what if a non-Christian live like a Samaritan but is not a Christian? Do you think you should also try to convert him as part of your Christian duty?
Let's hear the views of Christian and non-christians. But please, be respectful of all faiths in your posts. Thank you.
Pathetically very few are tolerant of other faiths. Majority of Christians are not tolerant of other faiths.
agreed Fantagf
If such intolerance continue, im afraid religious harmony in singapore might come to an end. You wont be surprise to see riots all that happen again. This is indeed a serious problem. If nobody cares, then we'lll see about that.
I don't think it is so much intolerance as the mentality of "ignorance is bliss". Tolerance in Singapore has a particularly special meaning - ignoring differences and trying to live together. I suppose the clergy are afraid of the dialogues and debates bringing up sensitive issues and causing the church here to end up looking intolerant.
That said, it still is dismaying to see that the people whom we are to regard as shepherds to the flock are afraid of speaking with people of other faiths. I personally know Evangelical Christians who are wary of even Catholics and Eastern Orthodox adherents. Are they so afraid of being "polluted" and possibly lose their faith halfway? In times like these, Christians should not shy away from the challenge, but gird their loins and walk with the confidence given from the Lord. Right now, all I see is a bunch of people who are backing down, doing the exact opposite of Joshua and Caleb.
It makes me question if the established church in Singapore is performing selective reading of the Bible, thus leading to their less-than-inclusivist stance.
what is the definition of being intolerant? Having a opinion that is contridictory/clashing to anothers'?
One of my friend and his immediate family are Christains while most of his relatives are not.
When his grandma passed and Buddhist funeral is chosen, he said 'he cannot go to the funeral because his faith dun allow him to pray using joss sticks.'
I was like wtf! I know he felt sad but then shouldnt filial piety take precedence over these religious issues.
well old issue
but i am quite disturbed by this sentence
"The study also indicated that 41.5% of clergy said they find it difficult to collaborate with a non-religious leader for a charity drive."
if u are doing a charity drive, does religious difference matter? i think the heart is not there to do charity in the first place
some really dun respect other ppl religion one leh
no wonder some dun like christian haiz
Originally posted by despondent:hey spartan…
christianity does agree wif the importance of filial piety…however, to christians, God takes precedence over everything else…of cuz being imperfect human beings, there wil be times when we fail to put God 1st in our lives…perhaps u may like to noe tat filial piety is 1 of the 10 commandments in the bible…it is the 5th commandment…however, do note tat there are 4 commandments above it n all of them r attributed to God…since christians r suppose to put God 1st in their lives n tat they r nt to bow to or worship any other being, offering of incense or going thru the rituals of other religions is strictly forbidden…
ok, lets nt qn y did God set such strict rules…rather, since God said it in the bible n since christians r suppose to follow wad God has commanded, then r we still wrong to put Him ahead of our parents when He was the One who gave us our parents??? while filial piety to our parents, isnt filial piety to the God who created us n gave us our parents even more so impt??? then shldnt we obey Him over our parents???
Dear despondant (and also referring to the thread by Spartan and Noahnoah about joss sticks and respect for others),
Bowing and Joss Sticks not allowed by Christianity? Really?
You have said that God takes precedence above all other things and that as such, you said Christians are "not to bow to or worship any other being, offering of incense or going thru the rituals of other religions is strictly forbidden…"
I'd like to add to this perspective so that we can explore some possibilities with this joss-stick and bowing practises which many Protestant Christians (but not most Catholics) are uncomfortable with.
Christians in the past used joss sticks too - but they were joss "lumps"! (Baby Jesus was offered incense too!)
To me, joss sticks holding is a mark of respect - not much different from giving a toast of wine. Or any different from offering of lighted candles, from a gift of flowers or the gift of songs during a Christian funeral or in church.
Many Christians are not aware that in Christian Churches in the past, incense was popularly used as a church worship tool in Medieval Christian church and also in current day Eastern Orthodox Christian Churches in eastern Europe and Russia. Incense also traditionally called frankincense, is derived from the bark of a tree and when burnt it gives off a very nice smell. Christians and the medieval church believed that the rising fragrance and smoke from burning incense will bring their prayers heavenwards (certainly many Christians do not belive that now).
Remember, when Jesus was born, the 3 magi (wise men) from the east came to him bearing gifts of "gold, frankincense, and myrrh (Matthew 2:11. In Standard Revised Version of the bible it is called "frankincense" and in the NIV version it is referred in the shorter form "incense").
Similarly, joss sticks are also made of frankincense ("incense") and other nice smelling materials and happen to come in a stick or a coil form - not in a lumpy form as when the Christian used it. But the essence of thing is still the same, its just that the form is different.
So, when a Christian hold the joss stick which is really the same as incense, just hold it as a mark of respect for the dead and as a sign of comfort for the family. You know you are not praying to the dead, so I think there is no need to be too worried. Afterall, God is omniscient - and he read your heart and your intention. Remember, God has also said it is what in your heart that matters.
On the matter of bowing
Also, some Christians are afraid to bow to the picture of the dead person especially when at a non-Christian funeral. If a Japanese bow to you, would you bow back? Of course - its a sign of respect. Just so, bowing to the picture of the dead is to show respect and if this means a lot to the family, there is no harm doing it. It is not being disrespectful of God.
Being respectful to the dead, even non-Christians is a mark of Christianly love
In Matthew, a lawyer asked Jesus what is the greatest commandment. Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)
So while loving God is the greatest commandment, the second is "like it", that means, the second law is just as important as the first law. Thus, loving our neighbours as we love ourselves is equally important.
Loving our neighbours does not mean just loving fellow Christians, it also means loving those who are non Christians - even if they choose to remain non-Christians.
A funeral is a passage rite. Other major rites of passage include birth, marriage, death. Christians generally believe that the dead is now in the hands of God. There is not much the living can do. Thus, this passage rite is not for the dead, it is for the living.
So, what does a passage rite do for the living? It helps them grieve. Allowing the family members to grieve is important in helping them gaining acceptance of the loss and eventually moving forward from there. And a critical ingredient to bring to this passage rite is to give the family comfort, out of compassion, out of a love that Jesus has called us unto. Thus showing respect for the dead by expressing his good qualities, treating the place of funeral with dignity (even if it is a Buddhist or Hindu funeral) is important too.
Do we really understand the bible?
What I am about to say in the following paragraphs will very controversial depending where you are a fundamental or a liberal Christian. So do take it that this is an intellectual discussion to provoke critical thinking and consideration. It is not meant to attack anyone's faith. Afterall, many non-Christians also ask these questions and as Christians we must be able to respond to this, not in an angry and defensive attitude, but with logic if we as Christians want to convince others that Christianity is a viable choice.
First, where in the bible say one cannot hold joss sticks as a sign of respect?
Second,why do Christians say the bible says so, and so we must do this or cannot do this? Sometimes we need to ask ourselves is it really so? Are we reading the bible too literally or too naively without considering the historical and cultural biases of the writers who, inspired by God, are still human can have their own subjective worldviews?
"Thou Shalt not Kill" - Really?
One of the 10 commandments Moses received from God says :"Thou shalt not kill".
Yet, in Exodus, God supposedly killed the first born child of every Egyptian to force them to release the Jews (Exodus 11:4-6). After parting the Red Sea to let the Jews pass, God supposedly closed it up and drowned all the Egyptians. Isn't that killing? Or is God's law given to Moses mean: "Thou shalt not kill Isrealites but thou can kill non-Jews?" In Exodus 15, Moses even composed a song to celebrate this mass murder. Isn't our God a univeral God - does he love the Egyptians too? Isn't he their God too?
In the book of Numbers chapter 31, God was said to have commanded Moses to destroy the Midianites. And the Isrealites killed every men, but they spared the women. But Moses seemed unhappy and said: " 'Have you allowed all the women to live?' he asked them. 'They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31: 15-18)
Huh? Married ones get killed, not married ones get raped? Poor girls!
The Role of Women in The Church - why Christians don't listen to the bible?
In the bible, Apostle Paul said: " ...women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).
If this is so, then women have to be quiet and keep a low profile in church, but why do Christians do not obey the bible? Women sing in church in the choir, they teach in Sunday school, women pastors given sermons, lead worships. Yet, when it is convenient, some churches invoke this verse and say that women cannot be ordained as head of church? Isn't this a selective reading of the bible when it is convenient?
Do not Eat Food Offerd to Idols - Who Said?Who Said?
Some Christians refuse to eat food offered to in ancestor worship or to idols.
But Jesus said: "....Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' " (Mark 7:14-15)
Again he said: ".....Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") (Mark 7:18-19)
See Acts 15. The church elders and apostles sent a message through Paul to the believers in Antioch saying: "You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. (Acts 15:29)
The church elders decided to change Jesus' teaching about food later. So, who should we listen to? The book of Mark or the book of Acts?
Christian Beware! Be Aware!
Most Christians ourselves do not realise that Christianity is not a monolithic whole. A simple question we can ask ourselves is : whey are there so many denominations and so many independant churches? It is simply this - throughhout history, Christian leaders have disagreed on different issues ranging from contraception, homosexuality, ordination of women, capital punishment and manifestation of the holy spirit - just to name a few. There is a spectrum of stance on each of these issues ranging from fundamental to liberal.
And I think this is a good thing. When the Christian church became the most powerful religious and political organisation in Midieval Europe, it controlled all facets of society and dictated all thoughts. And many, many people suffered and were burnt at the stakes for so-called wrong beliefs.
So we as Christians have to be very careful and use our judgement. Even the bible say that there are false prophets. So we have to exercise critical thinking even with what religious leaders tell us.
Many of us do not realise that Christian fundamentalism mainly from the evangelical churches in USA pushes many aggressive teachings. Many may not realise that many fundamental Christian religious leaders in the bible belt of USA (the farming and cattle communities including Texas) supported President George Bush and helped bring him to power. Many did not realise that fundamental Christian leaders supported his invasion of Iraq because they feel Iraq is a Muslim country. Is this reflective of Jesus' message of love?
So, do note that many elements of fundamental Christianity have entered mainstream Christianity. Many moderate Christians and pastors do not know how to react. Ordinary Christians want certainty in an uncertain world. Fundamental Christian leaders give them this certainty by preaching that the bible is an inerrant world of God.
But is certainty so right? Is being 100% or 200% sure a good thing? This means we are not open to possibilities and new evidence. This gives rise to religious dogma - which is very, very dangerous. Being open does not mean loosing our beliefs - its means we leave a window open so that we can adjust our views when new evidence surfaces.
But do note that there is another spectrum of Christianity that many of us are not so aware of as they are not as aggressive. These are the liberal Christian thinkers and theologians. Liberal does not mean wish-washy, no principles or no morals. It means that this group have a different, not so literal reading of the bible, and this group is open to scientific evidences. I suggest Christians read more from this group, and make up their own minds. Most average church goers are biblically illiterate (they read a bit here and there and hear a bit here and there) and can't be bothered with church and Christian history. And they do not have access to updated, scholarly works on the bible.
John Selby Spong is a cutting edge liberal Christian theolgian and Bishop. Read his "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism". It is a good starting point.
My experience is that hearing both sides of the story gives us a balance view.
Last Word
You know, the reality is that Christians have got a "bad name" among non-Christians for being too rigid and disrespectful. We think sometimes that we are serving as a testimony for God but it really turns other people away from exploring the faith. So what kind of testimony is this? This does not have to be so. I firmly believe that Jesus message of love transcends time, culture, and even religions.
(Please note I am not referring to all Christians, but using the term as a generalisation as used by non-Christians commonly).
Originally posted by Spartans:One of my friend and his immediate family are Christains while most of his relatives are not.
When his grandma passed and Buddhist funeral is chosen, he said 'he cannot go to the funeral because his faith dun allow him to pray using joss sticks.'
I was like wtf! I know he felt sad but then shouldnt filial piety take precedence over these religious issues.
lol... who says cnt go?
when my grandpa passed away, quite a no. of christian came as well... some even pray using joss sticks.. as for those who hv those think cnt use joss sticks, they came n pray their respect but dun use the joss sticks.. it's fine wif us...
1 John 4:7-8 - Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God...
Nothing wrong with going to funeral of another faith. We go there to show care and concern to the family members... not to worship other god. As long as we set priority right. Sometime i also found out that the deceased wanted another form of funeral...
Originally posted by Fantagf:Pathetically very few are tolerant of other faiths. Majority of Christians are not tolerant of other faiths.
Actually many people from different religions are intolerant of other religions, its just that SG law does not permit criticising other religions, thats why its so peaceful till now.
While, one example is satanism, i guess nearly every religion hates them.
Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:"Thou Shalt not Kill" - Really?
One of the 10 commandments Moses received from God says :"Thou shalt not kill".
Yet, in Exodus, God supposedly killed the first born child of every Egyptian to force them to release the Jews (Exodus 11:4-6). After parting the Red Sea to let the Jews pass, God supposedly closed it up and drowned all the Egyptians. Isn't that killing? Or is God's law given to Moses mean: "Thou shalt not kill Isrealites but thou can kill non-Jews?" In Exodus 15, Moses even composed a song to celebrate this mass murder. Isn't our God a univeral God - does he love the Egyptians too? Isn't he their God too?
In the book of Numbers chapter 31, God was said to have commanded Moses to destroy the Midianites. And the Isrealites killed every men, but they spared the women. But Moses seemed unhappy and said: " 'Have you allowed all the women to live?' he asked them. 'They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31: 15-18)
Do not Eat Food Offerd to Idols - Who Said?Who Said?
Some Christians refuse to eat food offered to in ancestor worship or to idols.But Jesus said: "....Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' " (Mark 7:14-15)
hmm...i see alot of confusion with the bible and modern living... actually i think that all these ironic comparisions, eg. thou shalt not kill, yet bible say kill all the men...etc. it's all human nature to see that. But as most christians would know, the bible is not just any other book that one reads. When a christian spends time reading the bible, he/she prays and ask God about what He is trying to say that applies into the person's life. Maybe if you happen to read on 'Thou shalt not kill', maybe God wants to remind you that you killed an innocent ant on purpose while walking down the pavement?
You see for the unclean verse...the bible also did not mentioned that the "thing" that goes into a man is food. It could be said as the words that you use and words that come out of your mouth; eg. vulgarities, insensitive words, etc that makes one "unclean".
WHITE POWER WHITE POWER
people who worships the one true God is not intolerant to other religions.it is just that all other gods,goddesses,idols are false.for the is none other God than Jehovah.this is especially clear in the 10 commandments.worshipping anyone else but Jehovah is a sin against him and a very detestable thing to him.kings in the past walking in God's way has destroyed idols and temples of false worship.just as a slave cannot serve 2 masters, one who worship the true God cannot serve any others.
mordern culture requires religious harmony as many people have different religions just like the days of babylonians.in order not to have riots and such,religious harmony is required and thus many christians actually have to forego the pure worship of God to "tolerate" false religions.also the religion known as patriotism also erode pure worship.
my above points are in the view of a strict christian who will apply bible principals to daily life.therefore the use of false religions to describe religions that do not include the worship of Jehovah God.
the choice of using the holy name Jehovah instead of YHWH or yahweh is due to Jehovah as being a more widely acceptance by world wide christians of all sects.
it is just that all other gods,goddesses,idols are false.for the is none other God than Jehovah.
From 10 commandments right?
I think this commandment is real radical bullshit.
As a Catholic for more than a decade, i find that this is set in place to ensure that population from the christain faith won't decrease as it prevents people from changing faiths. Or basically put, selfish reasons. Which is the real irony here. Being selfish, which is a sin, so as to prevent ourself from not following the 10 coms, which is also a sin.
I believe that whatever others worship is real, but you get to choose one and stay loyal to it.
Originally posted by crimsontactics:it is just that all other gods,goddesses,idols are false.for the is none other God than Jehovah.
From 10 commandments right?
I think this commandment is real radical bullshit.
As a Catholic for more than a decade, i find that this is set in place to ensure that population from the christain faith won't decrease as it prevents people from changing faiths. Or basically put, selfish reasons. Which is the real irony here. Being selfish, which is a sin, so as to prevent ourself from not following the 10 coms, which is also a sin.
I believe that whatever others worship is real, but you get to choose one and stay loyal to it.
ah..now i know where ur questions came from..=)
u r frm the RCC...well, since this is a christian forum, i will have to based my pov frm the bible..there is only one True God..Jehovah, the one whom JC also worships..
the idols that pagans worships are real in the sense that demons make them real..onc u are able to understand how demons work..all things fall into place..
if one does believe Jehovah as the true loving God..will the true living God gift us with a totally useless and BS law?
In christianity, devils = other religion's gods.
I'm a christian. True story.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:ah..now i know where ur questions came from..=)
u r frm the RCC...well, since this is a christian forum, i will have to based my pov frm the bible..there is only one True God..Jehovah, the one whom JC also worships..
the idols that pagans worships are real in the sense that demons make them real..onc u are able to understand how demons work..all things fall into place..
if one does believe Jehovah as the true loving God..will the true living God gift us with a totally useless and BS law?
That is why there is wars and so much violences happening around the world.
Let me write out a scenario for you,
Jimmy is a Catholic, he worships God and believe everything given to him, which include the 10 coms. According to this, he thinks that other religions are nothing but mere fiction. So, instead of respecting them, he thinks that Islam, Buddhism or whatever are nothing but pure talk.
When other people from these religions hear about it, they will surely be angry and thus comes the racial riots.
The point here is this, we must accept the existance of other religions, which means the existance of their Gods, but we can make a choice on which to believe. With this mentality, we can better respect and appreciate others and their religion.
Nah I'm not from RCC or any organisation.
Im just a decade-and-a-half Catholic who is quite piss at its current state of development.
Originally posted by Danielhuang88:In christianity, devils = other religion's gods.
I'm a christian. True story.
If our religion is like this, I can tell you now that I'll renounce my religion immediately and declare that it is nothing more than a piece of shit.
My point is, christianity, is not very tolerant of other faiths. Ever tried converting from a christian to something else? Why not go to your pastor/priest and hear what he has to say.