Respect Or Disobedience?
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Originally posted by Beautiful951:
I won't. Surely I will not.
haha, well, we'll never know, it doesn't matter, it's just something i've seen.
but it doesn't mean everyone is like that of course.
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Originally posted by Beautiful951:
Ok but it now seems like you are replying to chibet.
???i am christian like dumbdumb!
in fact we used to be in the same church
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Originally posted by shade343:
Your post goes to show that you dont even understand your religion at all. Read the last line of my post. BOth religion are of the same essence, so how can it be that one is false while the other is true and vice versa? Its obvious both are correct, while the appearance differs to appeal to different groups of people. You are right, there isnt a middle ground, its either love or without it. So again, explain to me why the Goddess of Mercy isnt an embodiment of Love.If you read deeper in the story of Satan, you'll realised its a metaphor describing what will happen to humans when we become egoistic and be devoid of love.
1stly, i got no religion.2ndly, to say the 2 religions are of the same esscene is to say an apple and an orange are the 2 same fruit.
if u r a christian, den im sorry to say u are the type that keep saying jesus, jesus. but jesus will say to u truly i do not know u.if i were to explain the stuff about all other religions and true christians here, i will most probably be hauled to isd or something.pm me if u really wanna know.
and the stroy of satan.he is definitely not jus a metarphor.he will be the ultimate bad role model for all of God's creation.
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Originally posted by novelltie:
in Chinese culture, in practice and custom, offering joss sticks to the deceased who either is a Taoist is a sign of respect. whether you like it or not, it is a known fact and is practice for almost 2000 years. which also shows your ignorance in this custom and race.
"joss sticks, imo, are irrelevant to filial piety and respect. because nobody benefits from it." - dumbdumb!
tell that to all the Taoist or Buddhist who visits their ancestors, parents or grandparents at 光明山 everyday. by declaring that, you show no respect to other religion practices and customs.
i echo dd thoughts..soon all this petty traditions and cultures of different races will cease.actual fillial piety is how u treat ur parents when they are alive and not how big your joss sticks are when they are dead and how loud u cry at the funeral.
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You can be Catholic and a Chinese at the same time.
It does not mean that you dun believe in 7th month or some Chinese ceremonies will make you less Chinese.
Also does not mean that you dun believe in certain aspect of Christianity will make you a "weaker" Catholic.
All you have to do is to proud that you are a Chinese Catholic.
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traditions and cultures will come to a pass soon...
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instead of arguing why Christians just refuse to hold joss sticks and pay respect to the deceased, why not turn around and ask why can't the rest accept Christian's way or individual way of paying respect ??
Remember...
1. there are many ways to pay respect
2. It's between the one paying respect and the deceased
3. If the deceased don mind (of course), who are the rest to judge it is not (paying respect) ??
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holding joss sticks and praying has always been a culture-religious-weaved-together act here for a long time so unless we are clear of rational, we will always be caught arguing...
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Originally posted by jadel:
instead of arguing why Christians just refuse to hold joss sticks and pay respect to the deceased, why not turn around and ask why can't the rest accept Christian's way or individual way of paying respect ??
Remember...
1. there are many ways to pay respect
2. It's between the one paying respect and the deceased
3. If the deceased don mind (of course), who are the rest to judge it is not (paying respect) ??
agreed..will our loved ones prefer us to burn limitless joss sticks to them when they are dead or treat them with respect when alive?
whats more is that the dead are consicous of nth at all..u burn whatever also useless.
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Originally posted by novelltie:
now imagine your pastor at his grandfather's funeral who is a Taoist... while in the procession, he followed the whole procedures with diligence and even held joss sticks as an offering and respect for his grandfather. he kneeled, he bowed and he even cried during the process... he was only paying the respect his grandfather knew and desired at the event of his death. (same as the mother or Ms. Ng who only desired that her funeral will be of Buddhist way and custom but not of Christianity)
Yea i agree. But some people who claim that cannot hold joss sticks means admit the existence of other gods, i wanna ask them.. you mean your faith is so weak that you hold joss stick that you already dont believe in your god anymore? If you have strong faith its absolutely alright to hold joss sticks..unless you're not in any case.I can also say, i ever went to church before but im not a christian what. If im strong in my own faith going to church a 1000 times wont make me a christian too right?
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
agreed..will our loved ones prefer us to burn limitless joss sticks to them when they are dead or treat them with respect when alive?
whats more is that the dead are consicous of nth at all..u burn whatever also useless.
You sure christianity teach you that the dead are consicous of nth at all? Then why you admit the existence of heaven and hell?
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Originally posted by crimsontactics:
You can be Catholic and a Chinese at the same time.
It does not mean that you dun believe in 7th month or some Chinese ceremonies will make you less Chinese.
Also does not mean that you dun believe in certain aspect of Christianity will make you a "weaker" Catholic.
All you have to do is to proud that you are a Chinese Catholic.
yea, i have a friend who is quite similar to your defination. When it comes to the chinese thingy, he is quite liberal to it, but that doesnt mean he is losing his faith in catholic. If only people can be more tolerant of other religion..
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Originally posted by wilsonhao:
You sure christianity teach you that the dead are consicous of nth at all? Then why you admit the existence of heaven and hell?
the entire bible points to the dead knowing nth at all.christianity teaches immortality of the soul,hell and such.
i admit the existence of heaven but not hell.
also notice that i usually use what bible teach and what churches teach..there is a great diff..
heaven is where God dwell as well as the angels and JC.soon, it will include the 144000 of co rulers with JC..
hell..i jus cant stop laughing about it..
condition of the dead...can read on eccl 9:5-6, ps 146:4, ezek 18:4 , isa 26:!4
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Originally posted by novelltie:
the reason i post this topic is to gather the mindset of Christians and fellow Singaporeans. the gist was to understand if religion over-shadows filial piety... is holding joss sticks and participating in the funeral procession that is of your grandparents, not friends or collegues but of your own bloodline. the very parents of your parents.
is it wrong to hold joss sticks and give offerings like burning of hell money as a sign of respect and love? is it really wrong to send them off the last time the way they only knew of, the taoist way or buddhism way, whatever ways? again, i stressed that it is for your grandparents, not your friends, not your collegues, not anyone on the streets. this is for your grandparents... even parents. are we going to forsake their beliefs and their desire to be given a funeral that they so wanted in their own way?
i can't see myself refusing their last wish to be sent off in the Taoist way if they so desire... and i believe i will participate in the whole procession anyway. (both my parents are Catholics so this won't happen but just for example sake)
I posted this in another topic in Eternal Hope : "Are Christians intolerant of other faiths?" where the topic of joss sticks and bowing during Chinese traditional funeral were discussed. Here is an extract:
Bowing and Joss Sticks not allowed by Christianity? Really?
Some Christians have said that God takes precedence above all other things and that as such, Christians are "not to bow to or worship any other being, offering of incense or going thru the rituals of other religions is strictly forbidden…"
I'd like to add to this perspective so that we can explore some possibilities with this joss-stick and bowing practises which many Protestant Christians (but not most Catholics) are uncomfortable with.
Christians in the past used joss sticks too - but they were joss "lumps"! (Baby Jesus was offered incense too!)
To me, joss sticks holding is a mark of respect - not much different from giving a toast of wine. Or any different from offering of lighted candles, from a gift of flowers or the gift of songs during a Christian funeral or in church.
Many Christians are not aware that in Christian Churches in the past, incense was popularly used as a church worship tool in Medieval Christian church and also in current day Eastern Orthodox Christian Churches in eastern Europe and Russia. Incense also traditionally called frankincense, is derived from the bark of a tree and when burnt it gives off a very nice smell. Christians and the medieval church believed that the rising fragrance and smoke from burning incense will bring their prayers heavenwards (certainly many Christians do not belive that now).
Remember, when Jesus was born, the 3 magi (wise men) from the east came to him bearing gifts of "gold, frankincense, and myrrh (Matthew 2:11. In Standard Revised Version of the bible it is called "frankincense" and in the NIV version it is referred in the shorter form "incense").
Similarly, joss sticks are also made of frankincense ("incense") and other nice smelling materials and happen to come in a stick or a coil form - not in a lumpy form as when the Christian used it. But the essence of thing is still the same, its just that the form is different.
So, when a Christian hold the joss stick which is really the same as incense, just hold it as a mark of respect for the dead and as a sign of comfort for the family. You know you are not praying to the dead, so I think there is no need to be too worried. Afterall, God is omniscient - and he read your heart and your intention. Remember, God has also said it is what in your heart that matters.
On the matter of bowing
Also, some Christians are afraid to bow to the picture of the dead person especially when at a non-Christian funeral. If a Japanese bow to you, would you bow back? Of course - its a sign of respect. Just so, bowing to the picture of the dead is to show respect and if this means a lot to the family, there is no harm doing it. It is not being disrespectful of God.
Being respectful to the dead, even non-Christians is a mark of Christianly love
In Matthew, a lawyer asked Jesus what is the greatest commandment. Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)
So while loving God is the greatest commandment, the second is "like it", that means, the second law is just as important as the first law. Thus, loving our neighbours as we love ourselves is equally important.
Loving our neighbours does not mean just loving fellow Christians, it also means loving those who are non Christians - even if they choose to remain non-Christians.
A funeral is a passage rite. Other major rites of passage include birth, marriage, death. Christians generally believe that the dead is now in the hands of God. There is not much the living can do. Thus, this passage rite is not for the dead, it is for the living.
So, what does a passage rite do for the living? It helps them grieve. Allowing the family members to grieve is important in helping them gaining acceptance of the loss and eventually moving forward from there. And a critical ingredient to bring to this passage rite is to give the family comfort, out of compassion, out of a love that Jesus has called us unto. Thus showing respect for the dead by expressing his good qualities, treating the place of funeral with dignity (even if it is a Buddhist or Hindu funeral) is important too.
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Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:
I posted this in another topic in Eternal Hope : "Are Christians intolerant of other faiths?" where the topic of joss sticks and bowing during Chinese traditional funeral were discussed. Here is an extract:
Bowing and Joss Sticks not allowed by Christianity? Really?
Some Christians have said that God takes precedence above all other things and that as such, Christians are "not to bow to or worship any other being, offering of incense or going thru the rituals of other religions is strictly forbidden…"
I'd like to add to this perspective so that we can explore some possibilities with this joss-stick and bowing practises which many Protestant Christians (but not most Catholics) are uncomfortable with.
Christians in the past used joss sticks too - but they were joss "lumps"! (Baby Jesus was offered incense too!)
To me, joss sticks holding is a mark of respect - not much different from giving a toast of wine. Or any different from offering of lighted candles, from a gift of flowers or the gift of songs during a Christian funeral or in church.
Many Christians are not aware that in Christian Churches in the past, incense was popularly used as a church worship tool in Medieval Christian church and also in current day Eastern Orthodox Christian Churches in eastern Europe and Russia. Incense also traditionally called frankincense, is derived from the bark of a tree and when burnt it gives off a very nice smell. Christians and the medieval church believed that the rising fragrance and smoke from burning incense will bring their prayers heavenwards (certainly many Christians do not belive that now).
Remember, when Jesus was born, the 3 magi (wise men) from the east came to him bearing gifts of "gold, frankincense, and myrrh (Matthew 2:11. In Standard Revised Version of the bible it is called "frankincense" and in the NIV version it is referred in the shorter form "incense").
Similarly, joss sticks are also made of frankincense ("incense") and other nice smelling materials and happen to come in a stick or a coil form - not in a lumpy form as when the Christian used it. But the essence of thing is still the same, its just that the form is different.
So, when a Christian hold the joss stick which is really the same as incense, just hold it as a mark of respect for the dead and as a sign of comfort for the family. You know you are not praying to the dead, so I think there is no need to be too worried. Afterall, God is omniscient - and he read your heart and your intention. Remember, God has also said it is what in your heart that matters.
On the matter of bowing
Also, some Christians are afraid to bow to the picture of the dead person especially when at a non-Christian funeral. If a Japanese bow to you, would you bow back? Of course - its a sign of respect. Just so, bowing to the picture of the dead is to show respect and if this means a lot to the family, there is no harm doing it. It is not being disrespectful of God.
Being respectful to the dead, even non-Christians is a mark of Christianly love
In Matthew, a lawyer asked Jesus what is the greatest commandment. Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)
So while loving God is the greatest commandment, the second is "like it", that means, the second law is just as important as the first law. Thus, loving our neighbours as we love ourselves is equally important.
Loving our neighbours does not mean just loving fellow Christians, it also means loving those who are non Christians - even if they choose to remain non-Christians.
A funeral is a passage rite. Other major rites of passage include birth, marriage, death. Christians generally believe that the dead is now in the hands of God. There is not much the living can do. Thus, this passage rite is not for the dead, it is for the living.
So, what does a passage rite do for the living? It helps them grieve. Allowing the family members to grieve is important in helping them gaining acceptance of the loss and eventually moving forward from there. And a critical ingredient to bring to this passage rite is to give the family comfort, out of compassion, out of a love that Jesus has called us unto. Thus showing respect for the dead by expressing his good qualities, treating the place of funeral with dignity (even if it is a Buddhist or Hindu funeral) is important too.
i agree with your posts totally, but what's the use? the Christians here will not accept your views. even Catholic priests admit this is a grey area where they believe the Lord will not take offence if all you did was shown respect to the dead. however, the Christians take it as a sign of "rebellion" to the faith.
i visit my maternal grandparents' graves every "Ching Ming, Grave-Sweeping Day, observed on April 5." they are taoists so i burnt paper money, offer joss sticks and clean the grave. i do not recite their prayers, i just do the deed but i know in my heart, i'm still one of God's children. why? cos' i'm only doing what i know and taught as a sign of respect to my grandparents.
but when i visit my paternal grandfather in St. Ann's Church Columbarium, i do what we Catholics do, we say the Rosary and recite some prayers.
i had stop replying to this post initially because my priest told me that there is no point arguing with Protestants about this issue. their beliefs and tolerance differ from ours and there will be no conclusion end of the day. no one will be deemed right or wrong... unless the Lord decides to settle this once and for all (LOL!)
Everything in this world belongs to God. for giving respect to the dead is giving respect to God. showing disrespect to the dead is showing disrespect to God. likewise, for we are made in God's image; insulting others means insulting our Lord. we may have differences in opinions but i guess end of the day, we have to agree to disagree.
Accept each day with a gracious, thankful heart. a wise man once told me, "if your husband snores everynight when he sleeps, kiss him gently for he is alive and snoring. kiss him again for he is sleeping next to you and not with another woman and lastly, kiss him gently for you know you are alive to hear him snore."
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For the Christians, there's only one way that can get them to heaven.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
They must believe that Jesus died for their sins. They must accept Jesus as their saviour.
Not holding joss sticks will not get one to heaven.
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
For the Christians, there's only one way that can get them to heaven.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
They must believe that Jesus died for their sins. They must accept Jesus as their saviour.
Not holding joss sticks will not get one to heaven.
not sure what does the last sentence means. I am not asking anyone to renounce their faith. -
Originally posted by novelltie:
i agree with your posts totally, but what's the use? the Christians here will not accept your views. even Catholic priests admit this is a grey area where they believe the Lord will not take offence if all you did was shown respect to the dead. however, the Christians take it as a sign of "rebellion" to the faith.
i visit my maternal grandparents' graves every "Ching Ming, Grave-Sweeping Day, observed on April 5." they are taoists so i burnt paper money, offer joss sticks and clean the grave. i do not recite their prayers, i just do the deed but i know in my heart, i'm still one of God's children. why? cos' i'm only doing what i know and taught as a sign of respect to my grandparents.
but when i visit my paternal grandfather in St. Ann's Church Columbarium, i do what we Catholics do, we say the Rosary and recite some prayers.
i had stop replying to this post initially because my priest told me that there is no point arguing with Protestants about this issue. their beliefs and tolerance differ from ours and there will be no conclusion end of the day. no one will be deemed right or wrong... unless the Lord decides to settle this once and for all (LOL!)
Everything in this world belongs to God. for giving respect to the dead is giving respect to God. showing disrespect to the dead is showing disrespect to God. likewise, for we are made in God's image; insulting others means insulting our Lord. we may have differences in opinions but i guess end of the day, we have to agree to disagree.
Accept each day with a gracious, thankful heart. a wise man once told me, "if your husband snores everynight when he sleeps, kiss him gently for he is alive and snoring. kiss him again for he is sleeping next to you and not with another woman and lastly, kiss him gently for you know you are alive to hear him snore."
Hi noveltie,
I understand how you feel. In general Protestants are too rigid and exlusive in their approach - I know coz I come from a Protestant tradition. It all boils down to ignorance and fear. I also grew up in Catholic schools and have Catholic friends and I feel that Catholics tend to be more open and inclusive of other people of other faiths. My mom has a Catholic friend who will put her hands together in respect when she passes a temple. I thought that is so nice.
Yes, I do agree that we have to respect other religious and cultural traditions as long as they teach good things - love, compassion, peace, respect, self-control. Because all such good things are divine and come from God.
I used to be fearful and too tired to state my beliefs with Protestants and Christian fanatics. But I am beginning to change coz I believe that moderate and liberal Christians need to be vocal in their view and stand too, and not leave these to the extremists and religious fanatics and fundamentalists to influence this world. We have a role to play to correct incorrect teachings. If you look at Islam, most Muslims are peace loving and moderate but they are the silent majority. Only the small percentage are extremists who use violence and wrong teachings for their own political ends - yet they are the ones who are usually more aggressive in preaching their wrong views to the average Muslim and turn more peopl into fanatics. Moderate Muslims are beginning to realise that they should also make a stand and speak up.
So too should moderate Christians. We owe it to ourselves, to be true to ourselves and to be true to God.
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Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:
Hi noveltie,
I understand how you feel. In general Protestants are too rigid and exlusive in their approach - I know coz I come from a Protestant tradition. It all boils down to ignorance and fear. I also grew up in Catholic schools and have Catholic friends and I feel that Catholics tend to be more open and inclusive of other people of other faiths. My mom has a Catholic friend who will put her hands together in respect when she passes a temple. I thought that is so nice.
Yes, I do agree that we have to respect other religious and cultural traditions as long as they teach good things - love, compassion, peace, respect, self-control. Because all such good things are divine and come from God.
I used to be fearful and too tired to state my beliefs with Protestants and Christian fanatics. But I am beginning to change coz I believe that moderate and liberal Christians need to be vocal in their view and stand too, and not leave these to the extremists and religious fanatics and fundamentalists to influence this world. We have a role to play to correct incorrect teachings. If you look at Islam, most Muslims are peace loving and moderate but they are the silent majority. Only the small percentage are extremists who use violence and wrong teachings for their own political ends - yet they are the ones who are usually more aggressive in preaching their wrong views to the average Muslim and turn more peopl into fanatics. Moderate Muslims are beginning to realise that they should also make a stand and speak up.
So too should moderate Christians. We owe it to ourselves, to be true to ourselves and to be true to God.
i stand by you, sister. Aaaaaaaaa-men!
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Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:
Hi noveltie,
I understand how you feel. In general Protestants are too rigid and exlusive in their approach - I know coz I come from a Protestant tradition. It all boils down to ignorance and fear. I also grew up in Catholic schools and have Catholic friends and I feel that Catholics tend to be more open and inclusive of other people of other faiths. My mom has a Catholic friend who will put her hands together in respect when she passes a temple. I thought that is so nice.
Yes, I do agree that we have to respect other religious and cultural traditions as long as they teach good things - love, compassion, peace, respect, self-control. Because all such good things are divine and come from God.
I used to be fearful and too tired to state my beliefs with Protestants and Christian fanatics. But I am beginning to change coz I believe that moderate and liberal Christians need to be vocal in their view and stand too, and not leave these to the extremists and religious fanatics and fundamentalists to influence this world. We have a role to play to correct incorrect teachings. If you look at Islam, most Muslims are peace loving and moderate but they are the silent majority. Only the small percentage are extremists who use violence and wrong teachings for their own political ends - yet they are the ones who are usually more aggressive in preaching their wrong views to the average Muslim and turn more peopl into fanatics. Moderate Muslims are beginning to realise that they should also make a stand and speak up.
So too should moderate Christians. We owe it to ourselves, to be true to ourselves and to be true to God.
indeed all good things come from God alone..does that mean false gods tat teaches one to be loving, compassionate,peaceable, respectful,self control are also acceptable to God?? surely you would not drink a glassed of poisoned water even though 95% of it is still drinkable water right??
all persons that profess to be christians should stand by their faith and knowledge of the bible.if what the bible teaches and what the traditional or secular practices are in disharmony, den its best to alter ones thinking and cut off such ill practices..
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Originally posted by Maggie.meepok:
Hi noveltie,
I understand how you feel. In general Protestants are too rigid and exlusive in their approach - I know coz I come from a Protestant tradition. It all boils down to ignorance and fear. I also grew up in Catholic schools and have Catholic friends and I feel that Catholics tend to be more open and inclusive of other people of other faiths. My mom has a Catholic friend who will put her hands together in respect when she passes a temple. I thought that is so nice.
Yes, I do agree that we have to respect other religious and cultural traditions as long as they teach good things - love, compassion, peace, respect, self-control. Because all such good things are divine and come from God.
I used to be fearful and too tired to state my beliefs with Protestants and Christian fanatics. But I am beginning to change coz I believe that moderate and liberal Christians need to be vocal in their view and stand too, and not leave these to the extremists and religious fanatics and fundamentalists to influence this world. We have a role to play to correct incorrect teachings. If you look at Islam, most Muslims are peace loving and moderate but they are the silent majority. Only the small percentage are extremists who use violence and wrong teachings for their own political ends - yet they are the ones who are usually more aggressive in preaching their wrong views to the average Muslim and turn more peopl into fanatics. Moderate Muslims are beginning to realise that they should also make a stand and speak up.
So too should moderate Christians. We owe it to ourselves, to be true to ourselves and to be true to God.
I agree with you Maggie meepok. The key is compassion, charity and love that is inclusive of all. Jesus never shunt away from anybody and He is condem for being with sinners and eating with them.
Holding joss sticks and paricipating in a Chinese funeral (or any funerals) does not make one less Christian. It is about repecting our loved one and obeying God's commandment. Remember that God says that we must honour our parents (hope nobody will says that only parents and uncle aunty no need to respect) and the body is not just a dead body but the temple of God. It belongs to God and all respect must be given isn't it?
By the example as quoted, it will bring disharmony to the family and create a bad (more importantly - wrong) impression of Christians teachings which drives people away from Christ.
If Jesus is walking with us today, I am sure He will be there because of His compassion and love. It is such acts of compassion and love that He preaches and pratices that converts.