Respect Or Disobedience?
-
Originally posted by novelltie:
so basically, you are saying filial piety is being forgotten when religion is in place? okay, that is just what i'm trying to gather from this post...
maybe we should have a poll... for the sake of all Singaporeans?
filiah piety and showing respect for the dead - ChiBet, SingaporeMacross?
religion superseds respect for the dead - dumbdumb!
maybe you guys can forward on your own?
showing filiah piety is ok but i just really like to burn joss sticks,seeing the glowing ember slowly slide down the joss sticks give me a natural high.
the ashes blown by the wind floating towards the skyline into the dusk
the smell of the smoke making my eyes water, choking my lungs, making me cough
oh joss sticks, oh joss sticks, how can i live without you......................................
remember to vote for CCP (ChiBet Communist Party) in the next election
-
Originally posted by youyayu:
dumbdumb. are u a christian? sorry but i am too lazy to read all your post
yup
-
Originally posted by novelltie:
in Chinese culture, in practice and custom, offering joss sticks to the deceased who either is a Taoist is a sign of respect. whether you like it or not, it is a known fact and is practice for almost 2000 years. which also shows your ignorance in this custom and race.
"joss sticks, imo, are irrelevant to filial piety and respect. because nobody benefits from it." - dumbdumb!
tell that to all the Taoist or Buddhist who visits their ancestors, parents or grandparents at 光明山 everyday. by declaring that, you show no respect to other religion practices and customs.
lol, not showing respect to other religion practices would be going up to every uncle and auntie who are burning tons of paper money, candles, joss sticks and food, and putting it out in front of them. and that's not the case here.
as a christian, naturally i would think that these practices aren't right, but that's besides the point.
respect is about allowing others to practice whatever they want to practice, but it doesn't mean i have to agree that what they are doing is right, because i know that this practice is irrelevant to filial piety, and anyway it is wrong, as a catholic from birth, you surprise me..
joss sticks burning are logically irrelevant to filial piety. think about it, someone who is really nice and sweet to his parents and took care of them the best he can, until his parents' departure, didn't offer a joss stick during the wake or funeral.
compare that with his brother, who wasn't around at all, only know how to squander his parents money, incur gambling debts because of a drug problem, a menace to the family, threaten the parents with physical violence etc etc. during the wake, he offers up a ton of joss sticks.
who is more filial?
tell that to all the Taoist or Buddhist who visits their ancestors, parents or grandparents at 光明山 everyday. by declaring that, you show no respect to other religion practices and customs.
as a catholic from birth, you know the truth, i'm surprised that the ignorance you're displaying. these ppl do the things they do out of ignorance. i don't know their hearts, but even if the heart's in the right place, it's still wrong.
you, on the other hand, have no excuse for such ignorance. seriously, go have a real relationship with Jesus, then ask Him what He thinks.
-
Originally posted by ChiBet:
showing filiah piety is ok but i just really like to burn joss sticks,seeing the glowing ember slowly slide down the joss sticks give me a natural high.
the ashes blown by the wind floating towards the skyline into the dusk
the smell of the smoke making my eyes water, choking my lungs, making me cough
oh joss sticks, oh joss sticks, how can i live without you......................................
remember to vote for CCP (ChiBet Communist Party) in the next election
lol, sounds like some bondage fantasy you have going there =P
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
as a catholic from birth, you know the truth, i'm surprised that the ignorance you're displaying. these ppl do the things they do out of ignorance. i don't know their hearts, but even if the heart's in the right place, it's still wrong.
you, on the other hand, have no excuse for such ignorance. seriously, go have a real relationship with Jesus, then ask Him what He thinks.
If I were an athiest, I could say that it is ignorant of you to even go to church. There is no proof of god existing at all. How can you say that other people are ignorant just because of their religion?
-
dumbdumb!, of course those who are repentant at the last minute are filial and those who are disobedient at the last minute are unfilial.
-
Originally posted by Beautiful951:
If I were an athiest, I could say that it is ignorant of you to even go to church. There is no proof of god existing at all. How can you say that other people are ignorant just because of their religion?
because if you believe that you are right, then others are wrong.
if an athiest believes that he is right, obviously everyone else who holds a differing opinion from him is wrong.
and yes, if you were an athiest, you would be entitled to say that about my religion, and i just have to either settle with that, or contest that.
but the point is, TS is a catholic - FROM BIRTH. he holds like 90% of the same believes I have, that's why i'm surprised.
-
Ok but it now seems like you are replying to chibet.
-
REDUNDANT*
-
Originally posted by Soosiang.pornhost.ong7:
dumbdumb!, of course those who are repentant at the last minute are filial and those who are disobedient at the last minute are unfilial.
so you're saying the joss sticks rank top above practical actions of filial piety? =)
List of Pious Things to do for your parents (ranked accordance to importance)
- Joss sticks pwns all, even though there is no physical, psychological, emotional benefit for the recepients
- Spending quality time
- Taking care of them when they're sick
- Bring them to see doctor when something goes wrong
- Making sure they are well provided for, giving them allowance
- Bringing your children to visit
- Waiting on them hand and foot, while they have cancer
- Anything else that I missed
- Joss sticks pwns all, even though there is no physical, psychological, emotional benefit for the recepients
-
Originally posted by Beautiful951:
Ok but it now seems like you are replying to chibet.
nah, i was only teasing chibet. i'm replying to TS mostly.
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
- Spending quality time
- Taking care of them when they're sick
- Bring them to see doctor when something goes wrong
- Making sure they are well provided for, giving them allowance
- Bringing your children to visit
- Waiting on them hand and foot, while they have cancer
We do all of these.
But then, may I ask, do you know the significance of josssticks?
Of course we wish that and its better that our loved ones are alive. Its like that. Don't you think?
-
Originally posted by Beautiful951:
We do all of these.
But then, may I ask, do you know the significance of josssticks?
Of course we wish that and its better that our loved ones are alive. Its like that. Don't you think?
well, TS said that it's a sign of respect, so i'll take it face value. that it really is just a sign of respect.
but does that mean that the other things in the lists don't speak of respect, if not even more than just the action of joss sticks?
imo, and this is really just my opinion, joss sticks offering is so showy. everyone's on the look out for that idiot who don't offer joss sticks and is ready to condemn them, not knowing of the other things they have done for the deceased.
or the other extreme, they have been awful to their parents, so now they make a big show to make it up? but the dead can't appreciate it, physically, psychologically or emotionally.. they're gone, what's the point. the only ppl who can see what you're doing are those who are alive, your relatives, so you're actually doing it for their benefit, and your own benefit, to sooth your aching conscience (this is grounded on the belief that dead ppl actually don't receive anything from us spiritually, a christian belief)
soosiang was saying that, at the very end, if you offer joss sticks, means you're filial, if you don't, means you're not, regardless of anything you did in the past for the deceased. that's a very flawed logic, because the dead don't appreciate anything being done for them after they're dead. they can't! and it's a very unfair judgement on the child who served his parents and was always there for them, compared to the others, who were just conveniently there at the wake, lighting up a joss stick, and they're branded "Wonderful! 100 marks"
that's why, let's just assume that i'm not christian first, even if i'm not a christian, it's still logically flawed. at best, you're either doing it, because everyone else is doing it, or at worst, you're just doing it for the sake of not getting pked by your relatives, or just soothing your conscience.
but the dead, don't benefit.
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
well, TS said that it's a sign of respect, so i'll take it face value. that it really is just a sign of respect.
but does that mean that the other things in the lists don't speak of respect, if not even more than just the action of joss sticks?
imo, and this is really just my opinion, joss sticks offering is so showy. everyone's on the look out for that idiot who don't offer joss sticks and is ready to condemn them, not knowing of the other things they have done for the deceased.
or the other extreme, they have been awful to their parents, so now they make a big show to make it up? but the dead can't appreciate it, physically, psychologically or emotionally.. they're gone, what's the point. the only ppl who can see what you're doing are those who are alive, your relatives, so you're actually doing it for their benefit, and your own benefit, to sooth your aching conscience (this is grounded on the belief that dead ppl actually don't receive anything from us spiritually, a christian belief)
They where got awful to their parents? You say only.
We believe in life after death. In a different way from you, we believe they need some things to help them then. Therefore, the burning of the cash and stuff. It also constitutes the hungry ghost festival.
Christians and buddists are very different in their beliefs in life after death.
Your example is only applicable if the children have been bad to their parents, which they are not.
that's why, let's just assume that i'm not christian first, even if i'm not a christian, it's still logically flawed. at best, you're either doing it, because everyone else is doing it, or at worst, you're just doing it for the sake of not getting pked by your relatives, or just soothing your conscience.
You should be the one talking about logic. You go to church, you believe in an unproven god, logic? You want logic, show me the proof.
-
Originally posted by Beautiful951:
They where got awful to their parents? You say only.
We believe in life after death. In a different way from you, we believe they need some things to help them then. Therefore, the burning of the cash and stuff. It also constitutes the hungry ghost festival.
Christians and buddists are very different in their beliefs in life after death.
Your example is only applicable if the children have been bad to their parents, which they are not.
that's why, let's just assume that i'm not christian first, even if i'm not a christian, it's still logically flawed. at best, you're either doing it, because everyone else is doing it, or at worst, you're just doing it for the sake of not getting pked by your relatives, or just soothing your conscience.
You should be the one talking about logic. You go to church, you believe in an unproven god, logic? You want logic, show me the proof.
that's why i'm not disproving you, i'm disproving TS, whose religion claims to be the same as mine.
if you're of a different religion, i can't say anything, because you believe you're right. but neither should you hammer me if i don't offer up incense. You won't see christians telling ppl in a taoist of buddhist funeral that they're wrong in offering up incense. But you'll see non christians critisizing christians for not doing so, during the funeral, quietly.
but the problem is, TS is a catholic, from birth, and he knows the truth, so i'm surprised.
the question here isn't about whether joss sticks are right or wrong, the question is, is it right for a christian to be offering up joss sticks.
if the basis of the debate is grounded on religion, then obviously a christian, shouldn't do so, because as you said, you believe that the dead receive the offering of joss sticks, to help them with their next life, and we, as christians don't believe that, and because now, it's an offering to a spirit, someone is receiving it, and we believe that there is only 2 powers, God or Satan, and if God isn't receiving anything, means someone else is, and that to us, is wrong.
And you can't say anything about it, because you're from a different religion, and neither can i disallow you from doing it, because it's your religion, and you're only doing what you think is best and right. we're all just doing what we think is right. But it doesn't mean, either of us, have to agree that the other party is right.
if the basis of the debate is not grounded on religion, and simply on filial piety, joss stick offering is not relevant to it. as i've pointed out. the dead, don't appreciate it, and it's only for the benefit of the relatives and your own aching conscience. So how is that filial piety?
my example, just simply shows that, joss stick offering, cannot equate to filial piety.
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
that's why i'm not disproving you, i'm disproving TS, whose religion claims to be the same as mine.
if you're of a different religion, i can't say anything, because you believe you're right. but neither should you hammer me if i don't offer up incense.
but the problem is, TS is a catholic, from birth, and he knows the truth, so i'm surprised.
the question here isn't about whether joss sticks are right or wrong, the question is, is it right for a christian to be offering up joss sticks.
if the basis of the debate is grounded on religion, then obviously a christian, shouldn't do so, because as you said, you believe that the dead receive the offering of joss sticks, to help them with their next life, and we, as christians don't believe that, and because now, it's an offering to a spirit, someone is receiving it, and we believe that there is only 2 powers, God or Satan, and if God isn't receiving anything, means someone else is, and that to us, is wrong.
And you can't say anything about it, because you're from a different religion, and neither can i disallow you from doing it, because it's your religion, and you're only doing what you think is best and right. we're all just doing what we think is right. But it doesn't mean, either of us, have to agree that the other party is right.
if the basis of the debate is not grounded on religion, and simply on filial piety, joss stick offering is not relevant to it. as i've pointed out. the dead, don't appreciate it, and it's only for the benefit of the relatives and your own aching conscience. So how is that filial piety?
Why didn't you say so earlier.
Debate really make me tired. I gotta go get milo -
Originally posted by Beautiful951:
We believe in life after death. In a different way from you, we believe they need some things to help them then. Therefore, the burning of the cash and stuff. It also constitutes the hungry ghost festival.
PS: see. novelite, it isn't just a sign of respect, you're wrong, and your aunt is wrong.
-
Originally posted by Beautiful951:
Why didn't you say so earlier.
haha, it's you who are too quick to pull the trigger. =)
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
haha, it's you who are too quick to pull the trigger. =)
Oh ok fine.
-
Originally posted by Beautiful951:
Oh ok fine.and of course.. with all the love in me.. i do hope you'll know the truth. =) or at least, find out more =)
weather very heaty these days.. take green tea instead. =)
as for TS, for a catholic from birth, you really are sadly ignorant.. =(
again, i am disappointed by catholics.
-
dumbdumb!, God wants us to obey our parents regardless of religious beliefs.Do you understand that?Do you know that God views disobedient to parents as moral decay?In the 10 commandments, there is one commandment which is honour your father and mother.
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
and of course.. with all the love in me.. i do hope you'll know the truth. =) or at least, find out more =)
Ya maybe when I grow up.
Cause my grandmother converted just a few years ago.
-
by the way, you won't see christians telling non believers that they are wrong in offering joss sticks during a taoist funeral, we just simply won't participate in areas we aren't comfortable with.
but you will see non christians critisizing christians for not participating, quietly by themselves.
-
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
but you will see non christians critisizing christians for not participating, quietly by themselves.
I won't. Surely I will not.
-
Originally posted by Soosiang.pornhost.ong7:
dumbdumb!, God wants us to obey our parents regardless of religious beliefs.Do you understand that?Do you know that God views disobedient to parents as moral decay?In the 10 commandments, there is one commandment which is honour your father and mother.
Read above. Already mentioned.