Originally posted by novelltie:as a fellow Christian and as a grandchild, i will do what i have to do due to respect and love... for i did it for love and love is God... i did it for God. Amen.
if you really think that God is glorified, go ahead.
but always walk with Him =)
Originally posted by iceFatboy:well said..
For me, I do believe in doing more when my parents are alive than to worry about holding joss-sticks..
I think we need to be really wise about what's reported in the media cause bottomline, they are still dealing with the $$ and cents.
take everything you read with a pinch of salt.
we are after all, in the world.
Originally posted by novelltie:another part of the same story on Straits Times, Saturday 9th Aug 2008
http://www.straitstimes.com/Prime%2BNews/Story/STIStory_265925.html
the respect for other religions thingy is humans using it to control the society.the bible says the false gods and their practices are a very detestable thing to God.
when u say holding for the sake of holding and to compromise her actions for the sake of her granny n mum.that is known as choosing humans before God.suppose they take it further and wants her to perorm a wave offering with that joss sticks to the dead?
things like funerals, it can easily becomes a worship of ancestor thingy the moment u let your guard down.by ancestor i dont mean family that lived in ages past. but even father too..and the way chinese honour their dead ones are a form of spiritism.
you will have to realize that races and traditional cultures will make no difference to God when his day comes.until then, its a safer bet to keep doing his word and refrain from such unclean acts.
Originally posted by shade343:
Seriously, how egoistic and wierd can christians be? No man can serve 2 masters refers to serving both Satan and God, good and evil. Does the Goddess of Mercy represent the Embodiment of evil? Buddhism is a religion founded on compassion and enlightenment. It speaks of love and fillial Piety. So does christianity. So what 2 masters are you talking about when both religions are of the same essence?
u got it half correct only..goddess of mercy thingy might not look like an enbodiment of evil,however, it is still a false god to God.the serving 2 masters means a person can only choose satan or God, no grey area,no middle ground. be it any religions now,it will not lead to ever lasting life n happiness. only with the living God that one may have that hope.
fyi,satan is not known as the angel of light for nothing. when he is out to deceive people,he also chooses to become a savior so that people will think he is good and compassionate.
Originally posted by novelltie:Ms. Ng said: 'We may be mother and child, but she has to realise that she is mother to an adult child. It's not that I am being unfilial or not a good daughter'
adulthood means to be able to understand your parent's pain and worries more, not meaning you are "free" to do whatever you please without thinking how it will affect others. adulthood means maturity... matured enough to think for others and especially your parents.
when we were younger, we always want to do things for ourselves, not really concerned with our parents opinions or ideas... we want to be free to make decisions without thinking how it will affect others... that is call immaturity... now when you are 28 and an "adult" you will be concerned if your actions will cause your dad a heart-attack or your mum to suffer a stroke... that is call maturity.
please know the difference. by being stubborn with her actions without thinking of her mum's feelings and fear, she is being immatured... if her actions does not cause any negative affects on people around her and she stood by it, i say that is maturity... but by knowing your actions will cause sadness and still stood by it, that is call ignorant and immature... grow up
given your "pastor going through it al" scene, would not a really good pastor that walk in God's way will just sit aside and mourn?this way, he is mouring the loss of a loved one without compromising the will of God.by going through all the rituals, the pastor will by just hypocritical.showing to onlookers he is fillial.
Originally posted by Soosiang.pornhost.ong7:When even a pagan or a satanist can hold the joss-stick and observe a Buddhist rite, why can't a Christian?
cuz they are pagans and satanist lor..all false religions stem from them..to them is jus goin to a diff department of the same organization..so hard to understand mehz?
Originally posted by domonkassyu:cuz they are pagans and satanist lor..all false religions stem from them..to them is jus goin to a diff department of the same organization..so hard to understand mehz?
Excuse, please give us the due respect. What false religon?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:take it in context as to joss stick worship i guess.
what does the joss stick offering represent spiritually, is it glorifying to God? we, as believers know that idols are nothing, just wood and plastic and glass. but spiritually, who are the unbelievers offering it to?
it's not about fearing about being punished by God if you do smth or not. as christians, we don't have to fear, there is no fear in perfect love. but our motives should always live our lives to glorify God. People should see Jesus in us. What would Jesus do, would he have stood his ground and did what was right in God's eyes, in the process, stumbling many others, or would he lovingly refuse and love others according to his own perfect defination of respect and love, rather than the defination that others set upon him?
for me, I wouldn't participate in joss stick offering, my conscience wouldn't allow me to, it wouldn't glorify God in any way, and I don't want unbelievers to think that christians are wishy washy in their beliefs, and they can participate in the rituals of demons (of course we can, but it wouldn't glorify God)
can you imagine if Jesus folded to the pharasees and his accusers, just to satisfy their defination of love and respect? We wouldn't be here.
of course while we do so, we gently explain why we don't participate, firm but gentle. Jesus is always firm and gentle, standing for what he knows is right, and not wavering from pressure from the crowd.
like for my church, sometimes when old folks they receive Christ, they still do their rituals, and we're not in a hurry to tell them cannot la etc.
but always, once their relationship with Christ grow, they automatically stop what they're doing.
so in the end, it boils down to your personal walk with Christ, only if you have a real relationship with Him, then you will know what is right in God's eyes.
well done dd.. =)
Originally posted by Beautiful951:
Excuse, please give us the due respect. What false religon?
with all due respect i only quoted it as it is from the bible..if i were to quote it from the quran or some other religions,den a different term would be used..so no wrong in calling them false religions in terms that this forum is for the christians...
Originally posted by domonkassyu:with all due respect i only quoted it as it is from the bible..if i were to quote it from the quran or some other religions,den a different term would be used..so no wrong in calling them false religions in terms that this forum is for the christians...
Oh ok I din notice sorry.
???
is burning joss sticks = praying?
i am a christian but my whole family are devout buddhist who constantly ask me to burn joss sticks + kneel to idols/ ancestors.
i refuse to do it for the idols but i do it for my ancestors as the way i see it, i am paying my respect to my ancestors when i burn joss stick + kneel infront of them. I did not ask/pray to my ancestors for things as i know that only GOD is the provider.
i really do not understand why some christians insist on not burning joss sticks and paying respect to their ancestors/elders
as a chinese, do i have to abandon my chinese customs just because i believe in jesus christ?
just as some friends of mine asked me why i do not wear a cross to proclaim that i am a christian, i told them that i do not need to as GOD knows i am a christian and my actions speak for themselves. I do not need to wear a cross to let others know that i am a christian.
like wise, when i burn joss sticks and kneel infront of my ancestors tablet, i am offering them my respect and holding their memory dear. i am not praying to them. that is why i find some church excuse that burning joss stick and kneeling in front of ancestors = anscestor worship a joke.
i think these churches that teaches people not to respect people's elders/ancestors should be monitored as they are just brainwashing their members to be unfilial bastards. What the church need to do is to educate its members that they themselves should know why they are buring the joss sticks and kneeling infront of their elders/ancestors. it should only be a sign of respect and remembrance and not ancestor worship.
Burning joss sticks to honour the ancestors is fine. Burning hell money is not.
to me, it's not fine, because while we know that the idols are nothing, it means something to the non believers, in another way of putting it, "we're feeding or enabling a bad habit"
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Burning joss sticks to honour the ancestors is fine. Burning hell money is not.
if burning joss sticks is fine, why burning hell money is not? where is the line drawn? we know that no one is getting the money, it's just as good as burning paper, with no one benefiting from it.
you can't say that smoking cigarettes is ok, but smoking cigar is not?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:if burning joss sticks is fine, why burning hell money is not? where is the line drawn? we know that no one is getting the money, it's just as good as burning paper, with no one benefiting from it.
you can't say that smoking cigarettes is ok, but smoking cigar is not?
what does it mean to burn joss stick?
i got a friend who have a habit to burn joss stick when she practice yoga. is there any religious impact?
while burning hell money means you believe that your ancestors are in an afterlife that you can still provide for them but as christians, we know this to be false as we know that only GOD is the provider.
Originally posted by ChiBet: ???is burning joss sticks = praying?
i am a christian but my whole family are devout buddhist who constantly ask me to burn joss sticks + kneel to idols/ ancestors.
i refuse to do it for the idols but i do it for my ancestors as the way i see it, i am paying my respect to my ancestors when i burn joss stick + kneel infront of them. I did not ask/pray to my ancestors for things as i know that only GOD is the provider.
i really do not understand why some christians insist on not burning joss sticks and paying respect to their ancestors/elders
as a chinese, do i have to abandon my chinese customs just because i believe in jesus christ?
just as some friends of mine asked me why i do not wear a cross to proclaim that i am a christian, i told them that i do not need to as GOD knows i am a christian and my actions speak for themselves. I do not need to wear a cross to let others know that i am a christian.
like wise, when i burn joss sticks and kneel infront of my ancestors tablet, i am offering them my respect and holding their memory dear. i am not praying to them. that is why i find some church excuse that burning joss stick and kneeling in front of ancestors = anscestor worship a joke.
i think these churches that teaches people not to respect people's elders/ancestors should be monitored as they are just brainwashing their members to be unfilial bastards. What the church need to do is to educate its members that they themselves should know why they are buring the joss sticks and kneeling infront of their elders/ancestors. it should only be a sign of respect and remembrance and not ancestor worship.
Actually most of the chinese rituals practised today, are Chinese folk's tradition and NOT buddhism. Ancestor worshipping that we seem today in a typical chinese's family is a traditional chinese customs. It is not brought from India and not spoken by the Buddha.
Originally posted by ChiBet:
what does it mean to burn joss stick?i got a friend who have a habit to burn joss stick when she practice yoga. is there any religious impact?
while burning hell money means you believe that your ancestors are in an afterlife that you can still provide for them but as christians, we know this to be false as we know that only GOD is the provider.
hmm, i assume the burning joss stick issue would be like during qing ming, or during the wake.
i don't practice yoga, and neither am i talking about burning joss sticks in general, so tt point is out of context.
but when you're talking about a religious ritual, i rather have the line drawn, not for my benefit, because i know that such practices are worthless, but for their benefit.
like i said, you can't tell someone that it's ok to smoke a cigarette, but it's not ok to smoke cigar. in principle it's the same.
the reason i post this topic is to gather the mindset of Christians and fellow Singaporeans. the gist was to understand if religion over-shadows filial piety... is holding joss sticks and participating in the funeral procession that is of your grandparents, not friends or collegues but of your own bloodline. the very parents of your parents.
is it wrong to hold joss sticks and give offerings like burning of hell money as a sign of respect and love? is it really wrong to send them off the last time the way they only knew of, the taoist way or buddhism way, whatever ways? again, i stressed that it is for your grandparents, not your friends, not your collegues, not anyone on the streets. this is for your grandparents... even parents. are we going to forsake their beliefs and their desire to be given a funeral that they so wanted in their own way?
i can't see myself refusing their last wish to be sent off in the Taoist way if they so desire... and i believe i will participate in the whole procession anyway. (both my parents are Catholics so this won't happen but just for example sake)
by the way, i've just asked my auntie who is a Taoist by birth. she mentioned that during funerals, the act of holding joss sticks is only a sign of respect to the deceased. that is not an offering to gods or anyone but just a sign of respect.
also, this is based on true events; you can even pm me to clarify the authenticity.
my girlfriend's grandfather passed away few months back... maternal side. she is born Catholic too as her dad is. her mom is Buddhist by birth so definately the funeral is in the Buddhist way. my girlfriend's godmother is a very strict Catholic. active in church and prayer groups, even attends Novena regularly...
during the wakes, i do also went to show my respect. i've lit no joss sticks, i just bowed my heads and said my prayers since i'm considered outsiders and i seriously do not know how to "operate" the joss sticks. but there are always processions during wakes, agreed? i don't see her godmother asking my girlfriend not to participate the processions, neither do i see her dad asking her to stop? then as son-in-laws, they also must participate, agreed? did i see his declaring, "i'm Catholic, i do not believe in this and so i must not be involved". no. instead, he did what he was told by the monks.
to the pastor scenerio, we all know that the elder son must be involved with the procession. we all know the elder son carries the picture, we all know the eldest son has responsibilities. if the pastor is the eldest son, are you saying he should not be involved with the whole procession?
Originally posted by novelltie:by the way, i've just asked my auntie who is a Taoist by birth. she mentioned that during funerals, the act of holding joss sticks is only a sign of respect to the deceased. that is not an offering to gods or anyone but just a sign of respect.
also, this is based on true events; you can even pm me to clarify the authenticity.
my girlfriend's grandfather passed away few months back... maternal side. she is born Catholic too as her dad is. her mom is Buddhist by birth so definately the funeral is in the Buddhist way. my girlfriend's godmother is a very strict Catholic. active in church and prayer groups, even attends Novena regularly...
during the wakes, i do also went to show my respect. i've lit no joss sticks, i just bowed my heads and said my prayers since i'm considered outsiders and i seriously do not know how to "operate" the joss sticks. but there are always processions during wakes, agreed? i don't see her godmother asking my girlfriend not to participate the processions, neither do i see her dad asking her to stop? then as son-in-laws, they also must participate, agreed? did i see his declaring, "i'm Catholic, i do not believe in this and so i must not be involved". no. instead, he did what he was told by the monks.
to the pastor scenerio, we all know that the elder son must be involved with the procession. we all know the elder son carries the picture, we all know the eldest son has responsibilities. if the pastor is the eldest son, are you saying he should not be involved with the whole procession?
there are so many ways to show respect, but i find it laughable that, if a christian, who did every filial thing he could think of while the person was alive, but refuse to participate in offering joss sticks, he's condemned, but an asshole who did nothing ever for the deceased, offers a joss stick, and everything is overlooked.
it's kind of flawed.
non believers are upset only because they really do think that the deceased benefit from the incense, it's not about respect, or showing love or being compromising.
the problem is, despite all their talk, they really do think that the dead benefit from it. why do you think non believing parents are always worried that their children won't burn them joss sticks? if they truly believe that it's just a sign of respect, they know that they wouldn't benefit from it, even if no joss sticks are offered to them. what would have been important would be the respect and love shown to them while they are still alive.
and that, is what christians think.
as for the eldest son thing, i don't see it as an issue. you're not offering anything to anyone.
the joss stick scenario - you are offering something to someone, and at best case scenario, you're offering to nothing, which makes that ritual worthless, and in the worst case scenario, spiritually, you are participating in a demonic ritual (christian context), and you are actually offering something to a spirit, which isn't from God, because we, as christians, know that the world only has two authorities. God and Satan. If the practice isn't from God, it's from Satan, there's no sitting on the fence on this one.
so basically, you are saying filial piety is being forgotten when religion is in place? okay, that is just what i'm trying to gather from this post...
maybe we should have a poll... for the sake of all Singaporeans?
filiah piety and showing respect for the dead - ChiBet, SingaporeMacross?
religion superseds respect for the dead - dumbdumb!
maybe you guys can forward on your own?
Originally posted by novelltie:so basically, you are saying filial piety is being forgotten when religion is in place? okay, that is just what i'm trying to gather from this post...
maybe we should have a poll... for the sake of all Singaporeans?
filiah piety and showing respect for the dead - ChiBet, SingaporeMacross?
religion superseds respect for the dead - dumbdumb!
maybe you guys can forward on your own?
btw, did you ask your church leader, what do they think? more importantly, what does God say in the bible?
and no, i am not saying that filial piety is forgotten, i know that it sounds jucier and it's easier to attack me if you phrase it this way. but i am saying, that someone can only benefit from filial piety, if they're still alive.
joss sticks, imo, are irrelevant to filial piety and respect. because nobody benefits from it.
taking your sick parents to see the doctor, cooking a father's day meal for your dad, spending quality time with them. that's filial piety. not a pot full of joss stick ashes.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:u got it half correct only..goddess of mercy thingy might not look like an enbodiment of evil,however, it is still a false god to God.the serving 2 masters means a person can only choose satan or God, no grey area,no middle ground. be it any religions now,it will not lead to ever lasting life n happiness. only with the living God that one may have that hope.
fyi,satan is not known as the angel of light for nothing. when he is out to deceive people,he also chooses to become a savior so that people will think he is good and compassionate.
Your post goes to show that you dont even understand your religion at all. Read the last line of my post. BOth religion are of the same essence, so how can it be that one is false while the other is true and vice versa? Its obvious both are correct, while the appearance differs to appeal to different groups of people. You are right, there isnt a middle ground, its either love or without it. So again, explain to me why the Goddess of Mercy isnt an embodiment of Love.
If you read deeper in the story of Satan, you'll realised its a metaphor describing what will happen to humans when we become egoistic and be devoid of love.
in Chinese culture, in practice and custom, offering joss sticks to the deceased who either is a Taoist is a sign of respect. whether you like it or not, it is a known fact and is practice for almost 2000 years. which also shows your ignorance in this custom and race.
"joss sticks, imo, are irrelevant to filial piety and respect. because nobody benefits from it." - dumbdumb!
tell that to all the Taoist or Buddhist who visits their ancestors, parents or grandparents at 光明山 everyday. by declaring that, you show no respect to other religion practices and customs.
dumbdumb. are u a christian? sorry but i am too lazy to read all your post