http://www.straitstimes.com/Prime%2BNews/Story/STIStory_265928.html
i'm a born Roman Catholic but this is something that perplexed me... have we forgotten our roots as Chinese or we have turned a blind eye to respect for our ancestors...
This is based solely on my own opinions so before anyone flame the Catholic Church, i'm taking the flaming solely... This does not reflect on any religious group either...
what i feel is that this lady has taken the whole Christianity a little too "extreme"... yes, we do not pray to other gods and such but we are all taught that we have to respect other religions at the same time. this article makes Ms. Ng like some sort of "heroine" for disobeying or refusing to just "respect" the whole funeral ceremonies just because she is a Christian...
what i am really "unhappy" about is that she isn't willing to compromise for the sake of her grandmother and mother. is holding a joss-stick against the faith? no if you are not praying to any gods... just holding for the sake of holding is not a sin by nature but of course if you are offering it to some gods for any reason whatsoever is sinful yet again we are talking about respect for your GRANDMOTHER... maybe she didn't love you enough or maybe she didn't buy you sweets when you were whining for one but still, we Chinese pride ourselves as one who respect our parents and elders.
maybe i'm being too optimistic about the respect thing for younger Singaporeans have forgotten the need to respect and the need of humility? not sure but Ms.Ng is 28 and during that period in early 90s, discipline was still implemented in schools... plus she is graduate i presume (since she went to JC)... where is the R.E.S.P.E.C.T for your grandma? ya, you offer drinks and food but that, a maid can do too... as a bloodline of your grandmother, how will she feel when she see that you are the only one refusing to respect the ceremony for the sake of someone she didn't know name Jesus Christ?
i do not believe that by being so "impartial", one can gain the Lord's approval... rather, the Lord always stressed that we have to respect parents and elders if they are not against the law of God... by being born a Taoist or Buddhist, they have not broken any law, they had no choice... by being given a Buddhist funeral, she has not broken any law, they only know this custom... why can't we actually respect them and fulfill the acts of the procession in the name of respect and love? i do not believe God will take a negative stamp on you just because of that for God is love.
another part of the same story on Straits Times, Saturday 9th Aug 2008
http://www.straitstimes.com/Prime%2BNews/Story/STIStory_265925.html
hmm you might have a point, but Romans 14:21 says "It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall." Imagine if my pastor did just that, holding the joss sticks, but not kneeling or praying, his congregation would think that this is acceptable and they would do this, but not all of them might be strong enough, and soon some will not be firm in their faith.
Also, to hold the joss sticks is to acknowledge that their god exists but no man can serve two masters, (matthew 6:24).
Just my opinion.
then you have to decide whether God's opinion is better or your opinion is better lor.
Originally posted by tok_2_me:hmm you might have a point, but Romans 14:21 says "It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall." Imagine if my pastor did just that, holding the joss sticks, but not kneeling or praying, his congregation would think that this is acceptable and they would do this, but not all of them might be strong enough, and soon some will not be firm in their faith.
Also, to hold the joss sticks is to acknowledge that their god exists but no man can serve two masters, (matthew 6:24).
Just my opinion.
Seriously, how egoistic and wierd can christians be? No man can serve 2 masters refers to serving both Satan and God, good and evil. Does the Goddess of Mercy represent the Embodiment of evil? Buddhism is a religion founded on compassion and enlightenment. It speaks of love and fillial Piety. So does christianity. So what 2 masters are you talking about when both religions are of the same essence?
I only have 2 words to describe the daughter: Ignorant and Insensitive
now imagine your pastor at his grandfather's funeral who is a Taoist... while in the procession, he followed the whole procedures with diligence and even held joss sticks as an offering and respect for his grandfather. he kneeled, he bowed and he even cried during the process... he was only paying the respect his grandfather knew and desired at the event of his death. (same as the mother or Ms. Ng who only desired that her funeral will be of Buddhist way and custom but not of Christianity)
you were there... you witnessed the event and you know that pastor is deeply saddened by his loss. he is only human and he is not hypocritical saying, "since i'm a Christian pastor, i have no need to pay my respect the way my grandfather desire plus i don't believe so why practice?"
i quote, "There is no point doing something you don't believe in". - Ms. Ng
do you lose faith in God and him when you see his humanity? do you think he is "betraying" God or was he just being filial to pay his grandfather his last respect? do you really care about the procession when it is just a procession or you really care about protocols of the Christian faith? Neither! it is the very act of respect, filial piety and love that you embrace their funeral regardless of faith or religion.
if you say it's a friend's funeral, then so be it... but when you are the *bloody grandchild, what is holding you back? God is NOT holding you back, i assure you... God is not going to hold you back with, "if you hold that joss stick, you are commiting a crime beyond redemption". no and by the way, the Lord has already paid for your crimes with his very death on the cross and there is no expiry date to that. even if you commit a sin tomorrow, it is already forgiven if you are truly repentent.
i sincerely do not believe our God who is so loving and almighty will hold this "joss stick" event against you on your day of judgement. for you did it purely out of love and respect. we have to be moderate in our practice of faith and religion. if we are so rigid with small details like this, then we are forcing extreme actions against other religions. Singapore is a diverse cultured society with tolerance and understanding...
if you have a Taoist or Buddhist grandparents and you are Christians, it is a known fact that it is not their faults that they are in that religion. they are born either in that family or they are just too CHINESE in their mindset. are you saying because you are Christians, you do not respect the Hungry Ghost Festival? if you are so daring, then please go and kick those offerings or even stepped on it and curse or swear... you can even "dare" them to haunt you to prove that the Hungry Ghost Festival is a true event.
we Chinese have cultures and customs that will and many times collide with our Christian faith but we have to be open minded to accept that. are you saying you should denouce your race too and accept the "Christian" race? there is no such defination and the Lord always teaches us to love one another... to hold the joss stick as a sign of respect and love is not a wrong and definately not a sin.
by the way, holding joss stick is to acknowledge that their gods exists? not very convincing... yet even the Catholic Church acknowledged that other religions exist and other religions have their own gods. you do not see the Pope declaring extermination of other religions nowadays right? it is a known fact that many religions exist in harmony. also, is holding joss stick serving 2 masters? i acknowledge the existence of air but am i serving it? i acknowledge the presidency of Bush but am i serving him? i acknowlege your existence and presence, am i serving you?
Ms. Ng said: 'We may be mother and child, but she has to realise that she is mother to an adult child. It's not that I am being unfilial or not a good daughter'
adulthood means to be able to understand your parent's pain and worries more, not meaning you are "free" to do whatever you please without thinking how it will affect others. adulthood means maturity... matured enough to think for others and especially your parents.
when we were younger, we always want to do things for ourselves, not really concerned with our parents opinions or ideas... we want to be free to make decisions without thinking how it will affect others... that is call immaturity... now when you are 28 and an "adult" you will be concerned if your actions will cause your dad a heart-attack or your mum to suffer a stroke... that is call maturity.
please know the difference. by being stubborn with her actions without thinking of her mum's feelings and fear, she is being immatured... if her actions does not cause any negative affects on people around her and she stood by it, i say that is maturity... but by knowing your actions will cause sadness and still stood by it, that is call ignorant and immature... grow up
by the way, i'm not asking her to renouce her faith. i am asking her to grow up and be moderate in balancing the Christian faith and life. God sees the reason behind your actions, He does not judge you by what you did but why did you do it.
an example; 2 men... both killed before... 1 is a policeman and 1 is a "mad" killer... both killed before, the policeman shot a man before he denoted a bomb thus saving thousands... the latter who killed for fun but both have killed lives before, both are KILLERS in the eyes of the Lord...
now the question; who does the judge pardon? remember, the Lord sees not the action but the reason behind the action. if the action was because of love, you can be sure you are going to be pardoned.
Trying to argue and understand questions like this has made me less religious.
Mostly because I do not like people arguing from a high horse.
When even a pagan or a satanist can hold the joss-stick and observe a Buddhist rite, why can't a Christian?
The lady should be able to understand what is respect and what is not. If she believe that she is submitting to the gods if she is holding joss sticks... then she should not had converted to christianity in the first place as she believe that there are other gods cos christianity only preaches one God.
If she do not believe in the other gods but hold the joss sticks, it does not affect anything. If she is so particular, during the years that she lived with her parents, she would had to buy food outside everytime her family is holding offerings durings those days. If holding joss sticks constitute as a belief, eating the food that were offered to the gods does not? That a bunch of bull shit and craps.
She just wanna make headlines with such stupid reasons and guess what? It does not honour her parents and that make Singapore had a bad impression of christianity. She is just a pile of shit!
a high horse? i never said i'm a saint or a man of great stature... i'm just a fellow Christian who felt this lady forgot filial piety and the media made a heroine out of her.
Originally posted by caleb_chiang:The lady should be able to understand what is respect and what is not. If she believe that she is submitting to the gods if she is holding joss sticks... then she should not had converted to christianity in the first place as she believe that there are other gods cos christianity only preaches one God.
If she do not believe in the other gods but hold the joss sticks, it does not affect anything. If she is so particular, during the years that she lived with her parents, she would had to buy food outside everytime her family is holding offerings durings those days. If holding joss sticks constitute as a belief, eating the food that were offered to the gods does not? That a bunch of bull shit and craps.
She just wanna make headlines with such stupid reasons and guess what? It does not honour her parents and that make Singapore had a bad impression of christianity. She is just a pile of shit!
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
Idol Feasts and the Lord's Supper
Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
The Believer's Freedom
"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."[c]
If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake[d]— 29the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
After reading this, do what you feel is right according to this bible passage then. =)
very nicely quoted...
If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.
i always attend my Muslim friends' weddings and i never asked where the goat comes from, hahahaha...
Originally posted by novelltie:very nicely quoted...
If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.
i always attend my Muslim friends' weddings and i never asked where the goat comes from, hahahaha...
take it in context as to joss stick worship i guess.
what does the joss stick offering represent spiritually, is it glorifying to God? we, as believers know that idols are nothing, just wood and plastic and glass. but spiritually, who are the unbelievers offering it to?
it's not about fearing about being punished by God if you do smth or not. as christians, we don't have to fear, there is no fear in perfect love. but our motives should always live our lives to glorify God. People should see Jesus in us. What would Jesus do, would he have stood his ground and did what was right in God's eyes, in the process, stumbling many others, or would he lovingly refuse and love others according to his own perfect defination of respect and love, rather than the defination that others set upon him?
for me, I wouldn't participate in joss stick offering, my conscience wouldn't allow me to, it wouldn't glorify God in any way, and I don't want unbelievers to think that christians are wishy washy in their beliefs, and they can participate in the rituals of demons (of course we can, but it wouldn't glorify God)
can you imagine if Jesus folded to the pharasees and his accusers, just to satisfy their defination of love and respect? We wouldn't be here.
of course while we do so, we gently explain why we don't participate, firm but gentle. Jesus is always firm and gentle, standing for what he knows is right, and not wavering from pressure from the crowd.
like for my church, sometimes when old folks they receive Christ, they still do their rituals, and we're not in a hurry to tell them cannot la etc.
but always, once their relationship with Christ grow, they automatically stop what they're doing.
so in the end, it boils down to your personal walk with Christ, only if you have a real relationship with Him, then you will know what is right in God's eyes.
Religion is a sensitive topic ya?
Originally posted by Beautiful951:Religion is a sensitive topic ya?
haha, it's ok la. it's good i think, it helps one another understand each other more, but it takes mature ppl not to reduce it to name calling and insults.
very difficult, even for myself. i am still growing >.<"
Amen!
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:haha, it's ok la. it's good i think, it helps one another understand each other more, but it takes mature ppl not to reduce it to name calling and insults.
very difficult, even for myself. i am still growing >.<"
this forus is quite ok in its dealings of religious talking already. I could direct you to another forums. There the bickering between the believers and the athiests very strong. (by the way, they banned me. If not, i'll still be bickering there)
thy show me the way... (link...) *wink...
Originally posted by novelltie:Amen!
anyway, i hope you understand why christians don't participate in joss stick rituals.
as a believer, i really hope that your walk with God will grow, only then, will you know what's right to do.
as a fellow Christian and as a grandchild, i will do what i have to do due to respect and love... for i did it for love and love is God... i did it for God. Amen.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:take it in context as to joss stick worship i guess.
what does the joss stick offering represent spiritually, is it glorifying to God? we, as believers know that idols are nothing, just wood and plastic and glass. but spiritually, who are the unbelievers offering it to?
it's not about fearing about being punished by God if you do smth or not. as christians, we don't have to fear, there is no fear in perfect love. but our motives should always live our lives to glorify God. People should see Jesus in us. What would Jesus do, would he have stood his ground and did what was right in God's eyes, in the process, stumbling many others, or would he lovingly refuse and love others according to his own perfect defination of respect and love, rather than the defination that others set upon him?
for me, I wouldn't participate in joss stick offering, my conscience wouldn't allow me to, it wouldn't glorify God in any way, and I don't want unbelievers to think that christians are wishy washy in their beliefs, and they can participate in the rituals of demons (of course we can, but it wouldn't glorify God)
can you imagine if Jesus folded to the pharasees and his accusers, just to satisfy their defination of love and respect? We wouldn't be here.
of course while we do so, we gently explain why we don't participate, firm but gentle. Jesus is always firm and gentle, standing for what he knows is right, and not wavering from pressure from the crowd.
like for my church, sometimes when old folks they receive Christ, they still do their rituals, and we're not in a hurry to tell them cannot la etc.
but always, once their relationship with Christ grow, they automatically stop what they're doing.
so in the end, it boils down to your personal walk with Christ, only if you have a real relationship with Him, then you will know what is right in God's eyes.
well said..
For me, I do believe in doing more when my parents are alive than to worry about holding joss-sticks..
I think we need to be really wise about what's reported in the media cause bottomline, they are still dealing with the $$ and cents.
true, i wasn't sure what the media was trying to portray Ms. Ng, a good Christian or an unfilial daughter...