wow some very interesting discussion.
I like the argument brought up by Novelltie and Grandmaster especially. Some smart discussion. Let's keep it cool.
Thank you Miracles and Prophecies for your kind words. God bless. Again, we worship the same God in our hearts, our minds and our souls. why bother about denominations and practices?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and God also commands us to eat kosher, I don't see that happening in the catholic church either.
get my drift?
i'm not saying that i understand why God asked the jews to build the tabanacle in this way, but it's very clear cut about idolatry. my question is, without them, are you affected in your prayer life? if you are, then something is wrong isn't it. Because God's not in the statue, or part of it. so why should your prayers be less focused if the statues aren't there?
if your prayer life isn't affected whether the statues are there or not, then it's a good thing, which also proves that you don't need statues to help you focus or concentrate or whatever you want to call it.
1) All graven images and statues of the supernatural are idols
2) God commands the Isrealis to build statues and graven images in his Temple and Tabernacle.
3) God commands the Israelis to adore the man-made Tabernacle.
Ergo, God has forced idolatry on his people.
The problem with your argument (and hence your failure to understand the existence of graven images in the Temple) is your first premise.
The icon is a visual dogmatic method expressing the truth of our faith in the same light as Scripture and Tradition. It can be used as a teaching tool or as a means of focusing people to God.
Idol:
An image used as an object of worship. A false GOD.
This is how the dictionary defines an idol.
Image:
A reproduction of the form of a person or an object.
Are icons graven images or idols? Certainly Not. We stated that the first iconomaker was God and He continued to use iconography in the Old Testament. God Himself commanded Moses to make a bronze snake to heal the dying Israelites. Was that snake an idol? God Himself commanded Moses to create cherubim using pure gold with specific dimensions and place them over the Arc of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies. Were these gold cherubim idols? An idol or a graven image is a depiction of an inexistent being or an inexistent god. The bronze snake was not an idol because it pre-figured Christ on the cross, and the golden cherubim above the golden altar are existing realities of heaven. The golden calf, on the other hand, was indeed an idol because it was depicting an inexistent god. So icons are not idols but precious in the eyes of the Lord!
Your arguments are only valid if you are able to prove that Catholics treat the graven images as idols. You have 2000 years worth of documents from the Catholic Church. Can you please point to me a single line which commands Catholics to worhship the images?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:now you're putting words in my mouth and taking what i say out of context.
i'm saying that, your reasons for endorsing idols isn't a good one. because if you need the idols there to help you concentrate, means that it plays a big part in your spiritual walk, which means without it, you're crippled, which doesn't make sense, because God's not part of the statue, so why should the presence of the statue affect (adverse effect or otherwise) your prayers and worship?
if the lack of statues doesn't affect your prayer and worship, you' would have proven that having statues there is irrelevant to your worship, so why do you need it?
I have not stated that Catholics only remember/love God through icons. Instead I have mentioned that it is one of the ways Catholics express their love to God. Lets take an example - photos of our loved ones. Imagine you chanced upon the photo of your wife and you said to the picture - "I love you" and then proceeded to kiss the image of your wife. Are you expressing love to the piece of paper or are u using it to express your love to your wife? Its defintely the latter. It is the same situation in the CC. The icons on the CC are there to remind us of our founder, Jesus, His Mother and the great Saints of the Church. Whenever some prays before a statue, he is praying to the person the statue represents just as how when you kiss a picture of your wife, you are expressing your love to your wife.
Originally posted by novelltie:Thank you Miracles and Prophecies for your kind words. God bless. Again, we worship the same God in our hearts, our minds and our souls. why bother about denominations and practices?
Agree whether Catholics or Protestant we worship the same God. Actually I think Paul said something about the differences in practicing Christian belief. Some would not eat meat some would, some think circumcision is an obligation while others don't, some eat pork while others don't but we should not judge the others because their conduct is different from ours. The point is they are too Christians. Who are we to judge somebody's else servant. They are not ours to be judged because they are not our servants but God's.
Something like dat I think.
The reason why Noah's Ark could fit all the animals in it is simply because most of them were pure breeds. Now there're lots of cross-breeds and different types of dogs or cats simply because they have evolved. Back then, they didn't have that many species as we currently do now.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:Agree whether Catholics or Protestant we worship the same God. Actually I think Paul said something about the differences in practicing Christian belief. Some would not eat meat some would, some think circumcision is an obligation while others don't, some eat pork while others don't but we should not judge the others because their conduct is different from ours. The point is they are too Christians. Who are we to judge somebody's else servant. They are not ours to be judged because they are not our servants but God's.
Something like dat I think.
But if a Protestant reject the CC, will he be saved? I believe the CC teaches that if anyone rejects the CC even though he knows it is the true church, he may not be saved.
Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)
Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation....Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors." (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)
Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 - 1958): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth." (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953
Originally posted by Advante_101:Why the Christian Bible no stated that God make dinosaurs AH ?
And where the tower of babel ruins ? No pple found it leh...Even Dinosaur's thousand years ago remains can be found.
And the Noah Ark hor...say they managed to put all animals on Earth in their one boat leh..How can that be ? u take the one dog catergory species nia already got like hundreds leh if i not wrong.
Then insects leh...bery bery strange..Unless the Noah Ark boat is ten time the size of the modern Titanic la..And how he managed to sources all the animal in the world in one day? Hahaha siao bo..And many many more interesting stuffs in the bible.
Pls enlighten me.
1st answer to ur 1st qn..becuz bible not a science textbook lor.
2nd answer rgding the tower of babel..indeed no1 found it.in the accurate bible, it was only stated people were scattered from the ancient babylon of nimrod. only in the additional book of jubilee was it stated that the tower was destroyed..i jus did a wiki on the tower yesterday.
3rd..noahs ark..according to the size of the ark in the bible, its around titanic size with a few levels.its an engineering feat quite impossible during that time.as for the quota of animals..every sort of living flesh 2 of each was to be gathered. so mayb really include all make n models of animals lor.
lastly in genesis, it wasnt stated that all was collected in one day ya..the whole building and collection took hundreds of years bah..since when he died he was 950 years old
Originally posted by Master -_-:I like to ask another question..
Why do churches have statues/paintings of Jesus or pendants of them..and they kneel down before Jesus when they pray?
But Exodus 20
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
same reasoning as me..u can read my ealier thread regardin the holy cross
Originally posted by novelltie:For the different denominations in the Christian family, i have a simple layout that may enlighten the non-believers or hopefully allow us Christians to co-exist in harmony.
In a big company, there are many departments. For one, there is the Accounts department, the Sales Department, the Human Resource Department, Research and Design or even Marketing Department... The larger the company, the more diverse in their structure, right?
All these departments work in different fields and under different managers. Of course there are the general company rules like not being late for work, no stealing of confidential information blah blah but within the department, it also have a set of rules that only applies to staff within that department... right?
Protestants may have rules that doesn't allow them to wear crosses with the Lord in the middle but Catholics are allowed. So why go into minor rules? Why compare among departments? Engineers do not complain why they can't they wear open toe shoes in their workshop compared to accountants sitting in the offices when the regulations states so.
Look at Christianity as a big corporate company that has many departments... The Protestants, The Roman Catholics, The Eastern Orthodox, The Presbyterians etc... All of us are in different departments in a big company but we all work for one BIG BOSS... God and any squabbling among the departments will only prove futile and unproductive. So instead of comparing, why not admire the practice and work of different denominations.
Some of the statues are of great masterpiece... really, just go to the Nativity or even St.Joseph Church next to the National Library and admire the art of creation.
refer these to the sects of nicholas as JC has said..he mentioned it being very detestable to God
the thing about idolatry christianity nowadays practised is not according to the ark of covenent God asked humans to make.in wat sense..
the ark of covenent were actually inside the holy of holies and only the leveites priests will see.mordern christianity idolatry are displayed everywhere..
2ndly, God says build this thing inside holy of holies with specific instructions n dimensions.got direct approve from developer(God).
nth was mentioned by either God nor JC(he wouldnt dare without God's approval) to make crucifixes(with or without the body of JC) to so call commemorate JC.neither did any of the aposals of JC make any mention of must wear cross thingy..only after RC(no not the residents comitee) was established den all those mordern practice came about.