Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Are you saying that they beleived in God and got motivation when they see the staff raised?
the israelis believed in God,Yodh he waw he. they saw mosese as a motivation as he was their contact person with God, something like JC. so when they saw moses raised his hand, they see it as a motivational sign like how we would wave frens along during a race.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Going by your argument, if a Christian pray with a bible in hand, he is worshipping the bible instead of God? Or if one pray with eyes closed, one is worshipping darkness? What happen when there is a wall in front, are they worshipping the wall?
Worst, we may all be worshipping the pastor instead of God when we pray during service!
going by my argument,u have misunderstood it. when we pray with a bible in hand. we dont use the bible as a reminder to God. with eyes closed,it is also not a reminder to God.same with the wall and pastor..
but altars erected to house statues as reminders and "worshipping" god in front of such reminders is totally another matter.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:but altars erected to house statues as reminders and "worshipping" god in front of such reminders is totally another matter.
How?
altars and statues acting as reminders..
closing eyes to pray..wall in front, pile of shit in front..or whatever in front are not reminders.
pagans have statues they worship to or remind them of the deities..
like i said..how much diff is it btwn certain sects of christianity having idols acting as reminders and the buddisht temple scenario..
Originally posted by domonkassyu:altars and statues acting as reminders..
closing eyes to pray..wall in front, pile of shit in front..or whatever in front are not reminders.
pagans have statues they worship to or remind them of the deities..
like i said..how much diff is it btwn certain sects of christianity having idols acting as reminders and the buddisht temple scenario..
Ok, if that's how you look at it. It is there to remind does not means it is God. Others believed that "their Gods" reside in the statues...that' the BIG difference. Well you are entitled to your opinions.
I apologise if I offend anyone but I am speaking from the veiwpoint of the pagans and vampires.The Holy Cross represents the ultimate truth in Christianity.We are afraid of that thing and it makes us depressed and stressed that's why we avoid this thing.It can even cause us to feel discomfort and headaches.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Ok, if that's how you look at it. It is there to remind does not means it is God. Others believed that "their Gods" reside in the statues...that' the BIG difference. Well you are entitled to your opinions.
if i do remember correctly..the bible explictly says no idols/statues to be erected..does it matter now that should it be for reminders or for watever reasons?
u too are entitled to your teachings =)
Originally posted by Ongsoosiang:I apologise if I offend anyone but I am speaking from the veiwpoint of the pagans and vampires.The Holy Cross represents the ultimate truth in Christianity.We are afraid of that thing and it makes us depressed and stressed that's why we avoid this thing.It can even cause us to feel discomfort and headaches.
sorry...but laugh my fuc.king azz off....the so called thingy about vampires being scared of cross,holy wafers,holy waters and such are due to my good fren bram stoker..so suppose the vampire not christian den how??
Originally posted by Ongsoosiang:I apologise if I offend anyone but I am speaking from the veiwpoint of the pagans and vampires.The Holy Cross represents the ultimate truth in Christianity.We are afraid of that thing and it makes us depressed and stressed that's why we avoid this thing.It can even cause us to feel discomfort and headaches.
sorry...but laugh my fuc.king azz off....the so called thingy about vampires being scared of cross,holy wafers,holy waters and such are due to my good fren bram stoker..so suppose the vampire not christian den how??
Catholics treats statues in the same way as other religious objects like religious pictures, we honor it.
If someone put your photograph on the wall, and then do offensive things to the photograph like stab a knife on it or burn it, and you watch all these things happen, will you feel offended? Why? Is it because your spirit is inside the picture? Or you are the picture? No right?
It is the same with the opposite, if someone honors the picture (maybe because you have done something great, just as example), will you feel pleased? Of course, right?
God is almighty omnipotent omnipresence, and not a single thing happens anywhere in the universe without His knowledge. In my simple mind, I feel that He will be offended when you do offensive things to His image and pleased when you honor them, not because He or His spirit is inside the image or He is the image itself.
This is to make you understand why Catholics honor religious items. If you understand, you can see that these statues and images are not idols at all, but if you refuse to understand that, no one can stop you.
Catholics honor cross with Jesus Christ on it, it is called crucifix. It also reminds us that it is us who crucify Him with our sins, our negligence, our disobedient, our evil thoughts, our indifference toward Him, etc. It reminds us that we have been redeemed by Christ with His real sufferings, with His body and blood, that every time we sin, we would be adding His sufferings.
And another thing, although Catholic Church permits honoring religious items, She does not teach to worship religious items. Any catholic who do that is doing in his/her own accord. If you don't know what Catholic Church teach, I suggest, before making any judgment on the teaching, don't go to Google and click only the links that catch your interest, but click on the links on official Church websites, fair enough?
Originally posted by malcom:Catholics treats statues in the same way as other religious objects like religious pictures, we honor it.
If someone put your photograph on the wall, and then do offensive things to the photograph like stab a knife on it or burn it, and you watch all these things happen, will you feel offended? Why? Is it because your spirit is inside the picture? Or you are the picture? No right?
It is the same with the opposite, if someone honors the picture (maybe because you have done something great, just as example), will you feel pleased? Of course, right?
God is almighty omnipotent omnipresence, and not a single thing happens anywhere in the universe without His knowledge. In my simple mind, I feel that He will be offended when you do offensive things to His image and pleased when you honor them, not because He or His spirit is inside the image or He is the image itself.
This is to make you understand why Catholics honor religious items. If you understand, you can see that these statues and images are not idols at all, but if you refuse to understand that, no one can stop you.
Catholics honor cross with Jesus Christ on it, it is called crucifix. It also reminds us that it is us who crucify Him with our sins, our negligence, our disobedient, our evil thoughts, our indifference toward Him, etc. It reminds us that we have been redeemed by Christ with His real sufferings, with His body and blood, that every time we sin, we would be adding His sufferings.
And another thing, although Catholic Church permits honoring religious items, She does not teach to worship religious items. Any catholic who do that is doing in his/her own accord. If you don't know what Catholic Church teach, I suggest, before making any judgment on the teaching, don't go to Google and click only the links that catch your interest, but click on the links on official Church websites, fair enough?
again it will be best to see what the bible says about this honouring stuff that u mentioned..u make very valid worldly views.
sorry as i dont remember every word the bible says, just tat maybe it slipped my mind that we can actually have such holy artifects being built to remind people in worships.neither do i remember JC mentions anything about having honoury idols to serve as reminders. what he did said was to keep doing what he done during the last supper with regards to the bread and wine being his body and blood..
Vexilla Regis prodeunt;
fulget Crucis mysterium,
quo carne carnis conditor
suspensus est patibulo.
O Crux ave, spes unica,
hoc Passionis tempore!
piis adauge gratiam,
reisque dele crimina.
Te, fons salutis Trinitas,
collaudet omnis spiritus:
quos per Crucis mysterium
salvas, fove per saecula. Amen.
Abroad the regal banners fly,
now shines the Cross's mystery:
upon it Life did death endure,
and yet by death did life procure.
Hail Cross, of hopes the most sublime!
Now, in the mournful Passion time;
grant to the just increase of grace,
and every sinner's crimes efface.
Blest Trinity, salvation's spring
may every soul Thy praises sing;
to those Thou grantest conquest by
the Holy Cross, rewards supply. Amen.
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Vexilla Regis prodeunt;
fulget Crucis mysterium,
quo carne carnis conditor
suspensus est patibulo.
O Crux ave, spes unica,
hoc Passionis tempore!
piis adauge gratiam,
reisque dele crimina.
Te, fons salutis Trinitas,
collaudet omnis spiritus:
quos per Crucis mysterium
salvas, fove per saecula. Amen.
Abroad the regal banners fly,
now shines the Cross's mystery:
upon it Life did death endure,
and yet by death did life procure.
Hail Cross, of hopes the most sublime!
Now, in the mournful Passion time;
grant to the just increase of grace,
and every sinner's crimes efface.
Blest Trinity, salvation's spring
may every soul Thy praises sing;
to those Thou grantest conquest by
the Holy Cross, rewards supply. Amen.
hmm..hail the cross..hail means salute or call for attraction..hmm..sounds like the cross is being exalted here..if one didnt know better, it sounds almost as if the cross is an entity deserved to be worshipped.
lol, not really la.
like we sing "O Mighty Cross", but we're not praising the cross, but we remember the person who hung on the cross. it's always automatic to think of Jesus la haha.
Quo vulneratus insuper
mucrone
diro lanceae,
ut nos lavaret crimine,
manavit unda et sanguine.
Impleta sunt quae concinit
David
fideli carmine,
dicendo nationibus:
regnavit a ligno Deus.
Arbor decora et fulgida,
ornata
Regis purpura,
electa digno stipite
tam sancta membra tangere.
Beata, cuius brachiis
pretium
pependit saeculi:
statera facta corporis,
praedam tulitque
tartari.
Who, wounded with a direful spear,
did
purposely to wash us clear
from stain of sin, pour out a flood
of
precious water mixed with blood.
That which the prophet-king of old
hath
in mysterious verse foretold,
is now accomplished, whilst we
see
God ruling the nations from a Tree.
O lovely and refulgent Tree,
adorned
with purpled majesty;
culled from a worthy stock, to bear
those
limbs which sanctified were.
Blest Tree, whose happy branches
bore
the wealth that did the world restore;
the beam that did
that Body weigh
which raised up Hell's expected prey.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and that's why it's hard to explain to non believers to new converts why they should get rid of their old idols. especially if you have like 10 different saints in your house.
it's better not to have any, and take the absolute stand against idols, christian based or otherwise.
my catholic friend his family wah lao, got all kinds of idols, got catholic ones, got fu luk shou, got this got that. tsk.. i think it's time to make a decision, and make your stand on biblical grounds?
I dont understand why must get rid of their old idols at all. Somebody above said that its because God is inside the heart and not in the statue. But then you cant use that to justify that. You dont keep idols because your God said you cannot own any idols. But He did not tell you why you must not keep idols. They said it is pagan but if God is almighty and prevails everything, pagan is also part of God. And if you say God is almighty but he cant agree with some things in the world, then i think he is indeed a God but he is not all amighty.
i believe one Catholic priest have said in an article on Catholic News during Chinese New Year that those Fu Luk Shou idols are okay as long as you don't pray to it... anyway most of us do not pray to Fu Luk Shou even if we are not Christians... i think the Taoists also do not pray to it like offer incense or stuffs right?
I do have to agree that sometimes as we are Chinese, there are lot of Chinese customs that may conflict our religion... for one, fortune tellers that do not invoke the power of spirits or the supernatural. There is one i know that always station at Riverside Point. he only read your fortune based on your chinese name. the characters to be precise and he knows your fortune... is that really a sin?
Originally posted by wilsonhao:I dont understand why must get rid of their old idols at all. Somebody above said that its because God is inside the heart and not in the statue. But then you cant use that to justify that. You dont keep idols because your God said you cannot own any idols. But He did not tell you why you must not keep idols. They said it is pagan but if God is almighty and prevails everything, pagan is also part of God. And if you say God is almighty but he cant agree with some things in the world, then i think he is indeed a God but he is not all amighty.
paganism is not part of God.y cant keep idols is because while idols sees nor hear nth. the demons themselves can make use of the idols to draw people away from God.that is the main point.and if a person has accepted God and knows paganism is a very detestable thing to God, he would have steer away frm it. say your spouse hates u sleepin around.would u not stop for her sake if ou really love her??
God is almighty but he choose not to be evil nor have anything to do with bad works for he is a lover of justice.
Originally posted by novelltie:i believe one Catholic priest have said in an article on Catholic News during Chinese New Year that those Fu Luk Shou idols are okay as long as you don't pray to it... anyway most of us do not pray to Fu Luk Shou even if we are not Christians... i think the Taoists also do not pray to it like offer incense or stuffs right?
I do have to agree that sometimes as we are Chinese, there are lot of Chinese customs that may conflict our religion... for one, fortune tellers that do not invoke the power of spirits or the supernatural. There is one i know that always station at Riverside Point. he only read your fortune based on your chinese name. the characters to be precise and he knows your fortune... is that really a sin?
1stly,the priests knows shit about what hes saying..consider the origin of FLS idols..it stems from taoist tradition not God.if based on tat priest, its ok to keep idols of guan yin,buddha,siva, all the other countless idols so long as i dun worship it...does tat make sense?
even many jewish traditions n supertitions will conflict with God's words..
consider again what did God says about divination,spiritism n the likes..does not the translation lies with God alone?so where did the human fortune teller gets his ability to tell the "future" from??bear in mind that mighty as Jesus is,he too does not know when God's planed to end this system..
is the "future" foretold by that man really beneficial even if it really happens??does it not lure men away from the true God?
jus as fish lures does for a fisherman,spiritism does the same work for the demons.
Historical origins of the cross..
many objects datin way back b4 christian era were marked with crosses with diff designs in many parts of the old world like india,syria,eygpt,persia. use of crosses as a religious symbol outside of christianity is almost universal and usually connected to nature worship.
the shape of the 2 beam cross originated in ancient Chaldea being the symbol of the god Tammuz(the mystic Tau)..
ard 3rd century, churches either departed or travestied some doctrines of the christian faith. to increase the prestige of apostate ecclesiastical system,paganism were received into churches apart from regeneration by faith. n were largely permitted to retain pagan signs n symbols.so the T in Tau stayed on as the cross of christ.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:lol, not really la.
like we sing "O Mighty Cross", but we're not praising the cross, but we remember the person who hung on the cross. it's always automatic to think of Jesus la haha.
so does it really make a diff if one cherish a cross so long s/he does not worship it??
if we have a dear fren sentenced to death on false charges..would we wanna make a replica of the instrument of death to remind us our dear fren died on it or would we rather shun it?
ezek 8:13-14 says about jews weepin over the end of the god tammuz and God says its detestable..lookin at the symbol of tammuz tat happen to be a cross??
so end up who are we really cherishing?if we cherish the cross christ died on, we are doin a diservice to him, if the cross of tammuz is cherished due to induction of paganism into christianity den we are sinning gravely against God.
den how?
Originally posted by domonkassyu:so does it really make a diff if one cherish a cross so long s/he does not worship it??
if we have a dear fren sentenced to death on false charges..would we wanna make a replica of the instrument of death to remind us our dear fren died on it or would we rather shun it?
ezek 8:13-14 says about jews weepin over the end of the god tammuz and God says its detestable..lookin at the symbol of tammuz tat happen to be a cross??
so end up who are we really cherishing?if we cherish the cross christ died on, we are doin a diservice to him, if the cross of tammuz is cherished due to induction of paganism into christianity den we are sinning gravely against God.
den how?
For a guy with no formal Christian affiliation you sure take a lot of offence with 'idols'. Instead of shunning the instrument of death which your friend has died upon, you should look upon it which your friend suffered for the sake of a sinner. Perhaps you think your friend a fool? Yes, he is a fool in the eyes of the world. But so was Jesus.
Simply put you cannot comprehend the scandal of the Cross. A Cross without Christ on it, makes it a mere torture instrument. Christ without His Cross would not have accomplished anything or saved anyone. No death, no resurrection, no salvation for anyone.
It is true that the cross was found in pagan religions. But such is Jesus Christ that He brings redemptive value to everything, even pagan symbols. He is able to reclaim the fallen and unite all things to Himself. Yet He could only do this by uniting himself with His Cross, and not shunning it. "But it behooves us to glory in the cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ: in Whom is our salvation, life, and resurrection; by whom we are saved and delivered" Galatians 6. 14
For your hatred against paganism, I think you have potential to become Apostle to the Pagans. We shall pray for you.
September 14, The Exaltation of the Holy Cross
O God, who dost gladden us upon this day by the festival of the Exaltation of the holy Cross : grant that we who have acknowledged the mystery of redemption here on earth, may rejoice in the everlasting fruits thereof in heaven. Through Christ our Lord who liveth and reigneth in the unity of the Holy Ghost, One God forever and ever, Amen.
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:
For a guy with no formal Christian affiliation you sure take a lot of offence with 'idols'. Instead of shunning the instrument of death which your friend has died upon, you should look upon it which your friend suffered for the sake of a sinner. Perhaps you think your friend a fool? Yes, he is a fool in the eyes of the world. But so was Jesus.Simply put you cannot comprehend the scandal of the Cross. A Cross without Christ on it, makes it a mere torture instrument. Christ without His Cross would not have accomplished anything or saved anyone. No death, no resurrection, no salvation for anyone.
It is true that the cross was found in pagan religions. But such is Jesus Christ that He brings redemptive value to everything, even pagan symbols. He is able to reclaim the fallen and unite all things to Himself. Yet He could only do this by uniting himself with His Cross, and not shunning it. "But it behooves us to glory in the cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ: in Whom is our salvation, life, and resurrection; by whom we are saved and delivered" Galatians 6. 14
For your hatred against paganism, I think you have potential to become Apostle to the Pagans. We shall pray for you.
well,i aint takin offense,jus curious why christians are doing something God forbade them to do..well, shunning the object of death to the close fren doesnt mean im takin the fren as a fool,nor can i comprehend how u arrive in this conclusion..
the big issue is more of jesus' death right?sory if i sound cold or crude,but so long as jesus dies,does it matter if he dies on a cross of due to a 16 wheeler truck?so supposed back then,the way of execution is by stabbing the victim with a knife.will mordern christians wear a knife while catholics wear a knife with jesus on it?doesnt make sense right?
now we all know pagan stuffs does not originates from God,this is undisputable truth.also,God detest such things.now, jesus dies on a pagan cross.will tat in turn bring value to the cross or will God detest it more?eg, u hate drugs.yet ur own beloved son dies due to drugs.now, will u come to value drugs more now because ur son died due to it or will u detest it more?
ur last paragraph says i have potential to b an apostle for paganism n u shall pray for me.the way i read it means u r praying that i become an apostle of pagans fast instead of praying for me to accept God..im simpler terms, u r praying for me to be away from God rather den for accepting God??
n no thanks, i have no intention to b an apostle for the catholic church... =)
Originally posted by domonkassyu:well,i aint takin offense,jus curious why christians are doing something God forbade them to do..well, shunning the object of death to the close fren doesnt mean im takin the fren as a fool,nor can i comprehend how u arrive in this conclusion..
the big issue is more of jesus' death right?sory if i sound cold or crude,but so long as jesus dies,does it matter if he dies on a cross of due to a 16 wheeler truck?so supposed back then,the way of execution is by stabbing the victim with a knife.will mordern christians wear a knife while catholics wear a knife with jesus on it?doesnt make sense right?
now we all know pagan stuffs does not originates from God,this is undisputable truth.also,God detest such things.now, jesus dies on a pagan cross.will tat in turn bring value to the cross or will God detest it more?eg, u hate drugs.yet ur own beloved son dies due to drugs.now, will u come to value drugs more now because ur son died due to it or will u detest it more?
ur last paragraph says i have potential to b an apostle for paganism n u shall pray for me.the way i read it means u r praying that i become an apostle of pagans fast instead of praying for me to accept God..im simpler terms, u r praying for me to be away from God rather den for accepting God??
n no thanks, i have no intention to b an apostle for the catholic church... =)
To date you have not proven that we cannot have religious images or statues. Use the Scripture that you love so much. We want to see.
Do you hate the Cross? Jesus did not hate His Cross, so why are you hating it? Yes, the fact that Jesus did die matters. But it does matter why Jesus had to die on a Cross and not get thrown off the cliffs by madmen. Why must God die die choose to let Jesus die on a cross? All these has happened in real-time, not merely in books. God uses history and current events in the world to work. To make an example out of Him, the most excruciating and shameful form of execution existing at that time, in that locality, was used. Hanging would not suffice. Beheading would not suffice. Poison would not suffice. If Jesus is here making the ultimate sacrifice, surely there must also be the ultimate way of execution. This is the ultimate example, in that context. That makes wearing a 16 foot truck or a knife around my neck irrelevant.
I already said, Jesus is able to turn bad things into good things. The Cross is no longer a symbol of paganism, but a symbol of faith. It is no longer a symbol of suffering, but a symbol of hope. Jesus is even able to make suffering, a good thing. The Crucifxion is supposed to be a unique event which has changed the history of Man. His destiny is supposed to be changed. Even the way we see things must be changed.
I said, Apostle TO the Pagans, not Apostle OF the Pagans. I actually meant to praise you for fighting paganism, but since I was taken the wrong way.. Oh well.
Well neither did St Paul choose to become a Apostle. But I believe you have potential to be God's instrument.