The cross is one of the holy artifacts of christiandom. many christians claims that they do not worship the cross as they claim they only worship God. certain sects even have altars for statues of "holy" persons and even a statue of the christ.
they claim such artifects are nothing more than items to remember the persons and christ. usually devotees are found in prayer in front of the artifects or holding the cross while praying. these kinds of worshipping behaviour is also found in all other false religions. only short of incense offered as wave offering to make it look like a chinese temple.
so if the claim of using the cross as rememberance only is true, if christ died on say an electric chair or died by hanging..will mordern christians use the electric chair or rope as a rememberance instead?
Actually, incense is also used (but not in joss stick form only)....go and check it out.....
Some belived that GOD is in the statues they are worshipping while others know that there is only 1 GOD and the statues are just there - God is not in that statue. The statue is not God.
Just like Christ is not in that statue, Sir Stamford Raffles is not standing along Singapore River but if you see that statue along the river, you remember him right?
Of course you don't need the statue to remind you....but why is it there? To honour Sir Stamford Raffles? Maybe....
As for electric chairs, quite interesting and I wonder what happen if Christ died on an electric chair........
then we'd be wearing elec chairs instead of crosses.
i think that if you use the catholic version, the focus is on the death, the empty cross to me, focuses that Jesus is already up and running around.
this is apart from the teachings that forbid worshipping idols.
some ppl do take it as a reminder, like.. i've got a friend whose parents are catholics, they don't have so much stuff around their house, just a small statue of apostle paul, i think she said that it reminds him of how paul is always eager to reach out to the non believers.
and he reminds himself to do the same or smth.
but some catholics, walk fire enter demon lor, forget that it's just a "reminder".
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
i think that if you use the catholic version, the focus is on the death, the empty cross to me, focuses that Jesus is already up and running around.
this is apart from the teachings that forbid worshipping idols.
The cross is there to remind, without or without Jesus on it. You are right as the Church focus is on the living God.
Yes, the Church is against worshipping idols and no Catholic worship idols. It's just people who insist they do. But the truth is, they don't. That's all.
yeah..they dont..they are misunderstood. they just happen to be on their knees hands clasp in prayer in front of the big cross with JC on the cross. they are of cuz worshipping God in their hearts..
look across the street..we see one a buddist temple. a person in on his knees palms together in prayer to buddha.. of cuz he knows that buddha is not in that statue but in his heart.. its jus there to help him focus. and we have people calling him worshipping the statue..
pretty big difference i see from here.
it is lil things like its just here to remind me of such and such acts of certain "saints" that the demons actually wants us to have. eventually, it is so much easier to corrupt the worshipper.
say instead of statues of "saints" i have a statue of mr guan yu at home to remind me of his loyalty..is it the same as certain sects of christianity?
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:The cross is there to remind, without or without Jesus on it. You are right as the Church focus is on the living God.
Yes, the Church is against worshipping idols and no Catholic worship idols. It's just people who insist they do. But the truth is, they don't. That's all.
haha. the church says that.. but you can't be definite about the 2nd statement.
just like i can say. the church is against premarital sex. but no christians have premarital sex? sure or not hahaha..
Originally posted by domonkassyu:yeah..they dont..they are misunderstood. they just happen to be on their knees hands clasp in prayer in front of the big cross with JC on the cross. they are of cuz worshipping God in their hearts..
look across the street..we see one a buddist temple. a person in on his knees palms together in prayer to buddha.. of cuz he knows that buddha is not in that statue but in his heart.. its jus there to help him focus. and we have people calling him worshipping the statue..
pretty big difference i see from here.
it is lil things like its just here to remind me of such and such acts of certain "saints" that the demons actually wants us to have. eventually, it is so much easier to corrupt the worshipper.
say instead of statues of "saints" i have a statue of mr guan yu at home to remind me of his loyalty..is it the same as certain sects of christianity?
and that's why it's hard to explain to non believers to new converts why they should get rid of their old idols. especially if you have like 10 different saints in your house.
it's better not to have any, and take the absolute stand against idols, christian based or otherwise.
my catholic friend his family wah lao, got all kinds of idols, got catholic ones, got fu luk shou, got this got that. tsk.. i think it's time to make a decision, and make your stand on biblical grounds?
simply put..certain sects of christianity have violated the bible law of no idols..they are just trying to justify their paganistic rites. if possible, tink they will soon offer molech their children
Originally posted by domonkassyu:simply put..certain sects of christianity have violated the bible law of no idols..they are just trying to justify their paganistic rites. if possible, tink they will soon offer molech their children
lol.. i've always been hearing excuses for that. but some people from the same certain sects of chrsitianity are really focused. they don't pray to idols, go to the statue at the back of the church to pray etc. they do know that they can stand before God and they can pray directly to Him.
the statue , abeit a small one, is just a reminder to themselves about a quality of the saint.
it all boils down to individuals i guess. tts why i said, some walk fire enter demon.
it's all pretty double standard. but i guess, everyone of us are in some way.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:lol.. i've always been hearing excuses for that. but some people from the same certain sects of chrsitianity are really focused. they don't pray to idols, go to the statue at the back of the church to pray etc. they do know that they can stand before God and they can pray directly to Him.
the statue , abeit a small one, is just a reminder to themselves about a quality of the saint.
it all boils down to individuals i guess. tts why i said, some walk fire enter demon.
it's all pretty double standard. but i guess, everyone of us are in some way.
i tink it does not boils down to individual. it is a teaching by the higher ups. if the higher ups does not teach or allow such acts, the rest of the followers do it on their own sure kena ex comm what.
as a matter of fact..y must we confess to a pastor or sth in the confessional? do we not a/c ourselves to God?
as for the staute, i tink size dun matter here bah..
Originally posted by domonkassyu:i tink it does not boils down to individual. it is a teaching by the higher ups. if the higher ups does not teach or allow such acts, the rest of the followers do it on their own sure kena ex comm what.
as a matter of fact..y must we confess to a pastor or sth in the confessional? do we not a/c ourselves to God?
as for the staute, i tink size dun matter here bah..
and that's where the problem lies.. "do it my way, or you don't get salvation"
so everyone's afraid to voice up if they feel that certain teachings are wrong, and they are fed wrongly and they grow up wrongly.. etc.
what to do?
i just voice out here lor. haha...
those who voice out are called heretics or cults..
Does anyone here think that Moses worshiped his staff?
He used it to perform miracles. Perhaps it was his staff of wonder that he worshiped?
After all he carried it everywhere with him including when going to the Pharaoh?
What a staff...you think he believed more in his staff than he God?
It was Moses' staff that led the children of Israel(Jacob) out of Egypt......
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:Does anyone here think that Moses worshiped his staff?
He used it to perform miracles. Perhaps it was his staff of wonder that he worshiped?
After all he carried it everywhere with him including when going to the Pharaoh?
What a staff...you think he believed more in his staff than he God?
It was Moses' staff that led the children of Israel(Jacob) out of Egypt......
but moses didn't ask his staff to intercede on his behalf to God, neither did he use the staff to help him focus when he talks to God. =)
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:but moses didn't ask his staff to intercede on his behalf to God, neither did he use the staff to help him focus when he talks to God. =)
totally agreed. one more point is God asked moses to bring along tat staff to do the miracles..
did God in anyway ask his follwers to build statues of "saints"???
Exodus 17: 10-13
Joshua led the attack as Moses commanded, while Moses, Aaron, and Hur stood on the hilltop. The Israelites out fought the Amalekites as long as Moses held up his arms, but they started losing whenever he had to lower them. Finally Moses was so tired that Aaron and Hur got a rock for him to sit on. They stood beside him and supported his arms in the same position until sunset. That's how Joshua defeated the Amalekites.
God never did tell Moses to hold up his staff during the course of battle against the Amelikites. Yet the Israelies believed so much in the power of the staff that they were winning whenever they see Moses arms held up the staff high and losing whenever Moses lowered his arms/staff. Did that qualify as worshiping a walking stick?
Furthermore Moses used the staff to perform his miracles. But it wasn't the staff which did the miracles but it was God. It was just an ordinary walking stick. Yes it turned into snake but did the staff turned itself into snake?. My point is all those statues, rosary are just a tool to help the Catholics perform their miracles like Moses did. A tool of help means if you think you need them use them otherwise you are not obliged to. If a man finds that by praying in front a a statue of Jesus helps him to focus his mind in his prayers by all means pray in front of the statues. If a catholic think his prayers would be answered faster with an intercession by what he thought a holy man by all means ask for intercession.
You know in the bible angels proclaim that they intercede prayers for God's chosen people. And each of these angels is a saint. I mean that they have no sin. So even when we do not ask for intercession, it will still be given. We never know.
But personally I never pray for intercession to any saint and I'm a Catholic or perhaps an angel or a saint that I don't know intercedes my prayer for me to God. So not all catholic pray for intercession from saints though those who do are not at fault.
Christians should not be divided in that there should not be enmity between Christians. If there are differences they are not in the critical issues. They are more into the minor theological interpretation differences.
Every Christian is a walking miracle bringer. Amen? Whether he or she realizes that or not.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:Exodus 17: 10-13
Joshua led the attack as Moses commanded, while Moses, Aaron, and Hur stood on the hilltop. The Israelites out fought the Amalekites as long as Moses held up his arms, but they started losing whenever he had to lower them. Finally Moses was so tired that Aaron and Hur got a rock for him to sit on. They stood beside him and supported his arms in the same position until sunset. That's how Joshua defeated the Amalekites.
God never did tell Moses to hold up his staff during the course of battle against the Amelikites. Yet the Israelies believed so much in the power of the staff that they were winning whenever they see Moses arms held up the staff high and losing whenever Moses lowered his arms/staff. Did that qualify as worshiping a walking stick?
Furthermore Moses used the staff to perform his miracles. But it wasn't the staff which did the miracles but it was God. It was just an ordinary walking stick. Yes it turned into snake but did the staff turned itself into snake?. My point is all those statues, rosary are just a tool to help the Catholics perform their miracles like Moses did. A tool of help means if you think you need them use them otherwise you are not obliged to. If a man finds that by praying in front a a statue of Jesus helps him to focus his mind in his prayers by all means pray in front of the statues. If a catholic think his prayers would be answered faster with an intercession by what he thought a holy man by all means ask for help.
You know in the bible angels proclaim that they intercede prayers for God's chosen people. And you know each of these angels is a saint. I mean that they have no sin. So even when we do not ask for intercession, it will still be given. We never know.
But personally I never pray for intercession to any saint and I'm a Catholic. So not all catholic pray for intercession from saints though those who do are not at fault.
instead of saying the israelis believed in the power of the staff. isnt it more obvious that when the saw moses hands up, they felt a motivation that God is giving the enemies to their hands? im pretty sure staff was not the main point here,nor was it a artifect of miracle. so long as they see moses doing sth, the motivation will differ accordingly.
seriously i didnt know angels are the same as "saints". as far as i know, JC is the medium in which God accepts prayers now.
like what u say, a man praying in front of a statue of JC is just needing a focus in his mind..it is exactly the same act as the guy in the next street praying in front of a buddha statue isnt it??
it is this kinds of acts that greatly endanger people to demons attacks. no matter how subtle it is.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:so if the claim of using the cross as rememberance only is true, if christ died on say an electric chair or died by hanging..will mordern christians use the electric chair or rope as a rememberance instead?
That is precisely why there must be a Christ on the Cross, if not the Cross will be meaningless.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:simply put..certain sects of christianity have violated the bible law of no idols..they are just trying to justify their paganistic rites. if possible, tink they will soon offer molech their children
Moloch! You exaggerate...
Originally posted by domonkassyu:instead of saying the israelis believed in the power of the staff. isnt it more obvious that when the saw moses hands up, they felt a motivation that God is giving the enemies to their hands? im pretty sure staff was not the main point here,nor was it a artifect of miracle. so long as they see moses doing sth, the motivation will differ accordingly.
Are you saying that they beleived in God and got motivation when they see the staff raised?
Originally posted by domonkassyu:like what u say, a man praying in front of a statue of JC is just needing a focus in his mind..it is exactly the same act as the guy in the next street praying in front of a buddha statue isnt it??
Going by your argument, if a Christian pray with a bible in hand, he is worshipping the bible instead of God? Or if one pray with eyes closed, one is worshipping darkness? What happen when there is a wall in front, are they worshipping the wall?
Worst, we may all be worshipping the pastor instead of God when we pray during service!
You need to give proof that Catholics are praying to idols which you cannot because it's simply not the truth.
By having statues does not mean they are worshipped as God. Having a knife and chopper in your home does not make you a murderer because they are used by murderer.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
just like i can say. the church is against premarital sex. but no christians have premarital sex? sure or not hahaha..
Why not? If Christians is having pre-marital sex while the Church is againt it, who's fault is it? The Church or the Christians ? Or do we now says ALL Christians are having pre-marital sex? That Christianity is about having pre-marital sex?
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:That is precisely why there must be a Christ on the Cross, if not the Cross will be meaningless.
so same lor..if he died on the electric hair..so now christians wear a electric chair with JC on it??
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:
Moloch! You exaggerate...
yes i exaggerate. but it is just used to show... =)