Just remember that when you called yourself a christian in front of others, you should know that your actions would protrait what people deems as your religion.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:Yes I agree with what you wrote that once we take a deliberate choice in committing into the faith that we sould try to follow the ideal lifestyle according to the teaching.
I talked to my pastor in a confession. He said that it was normal to have weaknesses. I hate to think it as an excuse to live in sin. But after sometimes being clean from porn I fell into it again for an hour or two then regretted it, the cycle keeps repeating. It seems that I took my salvation and God for granted whenever I fell for pornography.
M&P,
I think there's a difference between addicting to pornography or the need to masturbate. If you watch pornography is to aid you in masturbating. Then probably you can start by doing so without watching pornography.
I'm not sure what's the christian take on masturbation, however, at least in the medical point of view, it's natural for both men and women to masturbate. If it's for masturbation, when you have the urge, probably just get over and done with asap, hence giving you lesser time to grow the urge of watching pornography?
It sounds weird but hope this post offends no one.
Originally posted by caleb_chiang:Just remember that when you called yourself a christian in front of others, you should know that your actions would protrait what people deems as your religion.
As long as the motives were right I do not worry about people's impression on me.
It has never been between me and other people or between other people and my religion. It's not even between me and my religion but between me and my God.
I do not live to please my neighbors nor do I live to please my religion. But I try not to fall from the grace of the Lord because what I [really really] want nobody could give them to me except the Lord my God.
If I am a good person it is for the Lord,
If I am persistent it is for the Lord,
If I relented it is for the Lord,
if I'm outspoken it is for the Lord,
If I'm silent it is for the Lord,
if I am against many people it is for the Lord,
If I am for a few people it is for the Lord,
if I work hard it is for the Lord,
if I (have to) lose many things in this life it is for the Lord,
if I'm rich it is for the Lord,
if I'm poor it is for the Lord,
if I'm hated it is for Lord,
if I'm loved it is for the Lord,
if I'm praised it is for the Lord,
if I'm rejected and put down it is for the Lord.
Whatever will be I will not be dissapointed because the Lord is for me.
My two cents.
If you are serious about wanting to live a holy life, aren't you supposed to have gouged your eyes as they led you to sin ?
Originally posted by idiotbutcherer:If you are serious about wanting to live a holy life, aren't you supposed to have gouged your eyes as they led you to sin ?
But first tear your heart of wanting to commit sin. That's all desires are from.
...................
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:But first tear your heart of wanting to commit sin. That's all desires are from.
...................
Oh that is in the Bible too? Great!
So what are you waiting for? Time to obliterate those desires...
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:Yes I agree with what you wrote that once we take a deliberate choice in committing into the faith that we sould try to follow the ideal lifestyle according to the teaching.
I talked to my pastor in a confession. He said that it was normal to have weaknesses. I hate to think it as an excuse to live in sin. But after sometimes being clean from porn I fell into it again for an hour or two then regretted it, the cycle keeps repeating. It seems that I took my salvation and God for granted whenever I fell for pornography.
Hi
you sound like someone who is saying these
'I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. "
"For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing."
**does this sound familar? probably so, I found myself in this situations many times (all the Alemak!s, Not again? ...etc)
do you want to know the answer this person found to his problem?
Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Oh... This person who is lamenting about his weakness in the flesh is none other then the Apostle Paul
(read Romans 7:7-25 about his struggle with sins)
I can see that you had been trying and struggling with your weakness, and yet it seems the result seems temporal? and then you try again, and fall again... (if I offend you, sorry) but is it a bit insane to try to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result?
Instead of trying to change yourself, ever try surrendering to Christ and let Him do the changing instead? For it is precisely that we cannot save ourselves that Christ died on the cross, so that through Him we may be saved.
remind me of the lyrics of a song:
"little by little, He is changing me.
little by little, He is changing me.
Jesus is changing me. ..."
Be blessed.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:That's deep Chin Eng. I love if you tell me and us what you think on both points.
actually this issue has been milked dry many times over. as i'd said, proponents of either of these stance will adequately be able to quote verses to support their beliefs.
so back to your topic: Is every Christian obliged to live a holy life?: My opinion is YES. Our life will need to show or exhibit our belief, otherwise our belief will not be real. Therefore we need to be very concious with what we do and how we act. Is it going to be easy? NO!
However, does this holy life (or holy living) play our part in salvation? I think not. In my opinion, salvation is a GIFT of God (actually this part is scripturally stated). Salvation should lead one to holy living, and should not be Salvation needs holy living to be valid.
The rationale for my personal conclusion is: what is consider HOLY before it validates salvation? Is there such a thing as holier than others? If there is none, then we will never know if we are saved or not, that being the case our salvation is never assured.
Note that I am not a trained theologian, and there WILL be others who disagree with me. So to those, it's ok, no need to get too worked out.
For whatever you are facing, M&P, don't think that other Christians are not facing them too.... it may be sexual sins, it may be greed, it may be doubts.... take heart, we all face them sometime or other. After one thing, it will be another. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.... but remember that God forgives, when you go to him in with a contrite heart.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:actually this issue has been milked dry many times over. as i'd said, proponents of either of these stance will adequately be able to quote verses to support their beliefs.
- no, salvation is independent of holy living. SIMPLIFIED VERSION: Salvation was achieved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is a one time act, it is a gift. The sole condition is that the individual accepts that act as a fact and accepts Jesus as his personal saviour and allow Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) to work on him to change his life gradually. Primary scriptural support: John 3:16 (there are other verses)
- yes, holy living is an integral part of salvation. SIMPLIFIED VERSION: Salvation is a process and because it is a process, holy living (or works) has to be evident and has to be actively pursued. If works failed or is lacking, the individual is deemed not to have salvation or not to have accepted salvation genuinely. Primary scriptural support: parables of Jesus on the separation of the sheep and goats and some verses in James with regards to having works being important.(there are other verses too).
so back to your topic: Is every Christian obliged to live a holy life?: My opinion is YES. Our life will need to show or exhibit our belief, otherwise our belief will not be real. Therefore we need to be very concious with what we do and how we act. Is it going to be easy? NO!
However, does this holy life (or holy living) play our part in salvation? I think not. In my opinion, salvation is a GIFT of God (actually this part is scripturally stated). Salvation should lead one to holy living, and should not be Salvation needs holy living to be valid.
The rationale for my personal conclusion is: what is consider HOLY before it validates salvation? Is there such a thing as holier than others? If there is none, then we will never know if we are saved or not, that being the case our salvation is never assured.
Note that I am not a trained theologian, and there WILL be others who disagree with me. So to those, it's ok, no need to get too worked out.
For whatever you are facing, M&P, don't think that other Christians are not facing them too.... it may be sexual sins, it may be greed, it may be doubts.... take heart, we all face them sometime or other. After one thing, it will be another. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.... but remember that God forgives, when you go to him in with a contrite heart.
Dear Unker CE,
your two statements
1) no, salvation is independent of holy living, Salvation was achieved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is a one time act, it is a gift.
2) yes, holy living is an integral part of salvation. If works failed or is lacking, the individual is deemed not to have salvation or not to have accepted salvation genuinely.
I do have a question on the 2nd statement, that says "If works failed or is lacking, the individual is deemed not to have salvation or not to have accepted salvation genuinely."
This is based on whose perception?
The reason I have question on this is
As you had said "The sole condition is that the individual accepts that act as a fact and accepts Jesus as his personal saviour and allow Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) to work on him to change his life gradually." Whether of not, the acceptance of salvation is genuine, is based on whether or not the person truely and sincerely "accepts Jesus as his personal saviour and allow Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) to work on him to change his life gradually". This is a heart issue, not a work/deed issue.
1) yes for us, its true, from the outside, as what Apostle James said, "show me your faith with works", we can only see if this is true and sincere by the action/deeds we do, just like we know what tree it is by the type of fruits it bear, we know what type of faith we have by the type of fruits we bear.
2) no for God, for on the day the person say in his heart, that he wants to truely and sincerely "accepts Jesus as his personal saviour and allow Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) to work on him to change his life gradually", God already know if this is really true and sincere, for God knows our heart.
Then I would rather say:
1) (copied yours) Salvation was achieved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is a one time act, it is a gift. The sole condition is that the individual accepts that act as a fact and accepts Jesus as his personal saviour and allow Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) to work on him to change his life gradually.
2) Holy living is a result or fruit of having received this salvation which is a gift through Christ Jesus. Falling in love in Him and knowing we now lives in Him and for Him and no longer in the flesh in sin.
God Bless
Originally posted by vince69:Hi
you sound like someone who is saying these
'I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. "
"For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing."
**does this sound familar? probably so, I found myself in this situations many times (all the Alemak!s, Not again? ...etc)
.....
Actually not Vince I've always lived a good man and paid the price for it as well as getting the reward for it. Well that except in this pornography stuffs that is in and out in and out. So you are right in away that there is a gap between what I'm aspired to be and my current condition with regarding living a true Christian life. And that's what make me feel bad... ashamed.
@Yamizi I think masturbating still would me me feel guilty and I believe it is a sin too.
@ChinEng, if the sign of salvation is holy living I think 99.99% of the world 's Christian population at any time would go to hell well except in the earliest church history. But I agree to what you wrote mostly. Living holy is more than being a good man. Living holy is to go beyond goodness.
Originally posted by vince69:........
Then I would rather say:
1) (copied yours) Salvation was achieved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is a one time act, it is a gift. The sole condition is that the individual accepts that act as a fact and accepts Jesus as his personal saviour and allow Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) to work on him to change his life gradually.
2) Holy living is a result or fruit of having received this salvation which is a gift through Christ Jesus. Falling in love in Him and knowing we now lives in Him and for Him and no longer in the flesh in sin.
God Bless
If you could love God madly you would get anything that you asked for. But no one could love God unless God gave him/her the love for Him.
How many people really truly in love with God? Very few I think. Loving God is a blessing imo we just could not cultivate the feeling ourselves.
It's different with falling in love with the opposite sex. That is a selfish love in that we expect in return to get what we want from her i.e, to have her as our spouse or girlfriend for example. That is why there is always jealousy in this type of love. And that's why we could be disappointed because we expect a return for our love.
A true love for God doesn't expect anything in return. Love itself is what we after. We love God madly simply because we love God madly.
No one is perfect in this world, we're all human.
But difference is as Christians, we have God to depend on in the good times and in the tempation-ful bad times. And that we are justified by faith in the step we take to believe Jesus as the Christ and that He died for our sins. And that whosoever believes shall have eternal life abstracted from John 3:16.
The term 'holy' i reckon is just to describe our God almighty, because since the fall of men (and women) through Adam, we have deemed ourselves unclean and at the mercy of God. And its only through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross that we can be cleansed.
Even if we can't always abide by His precepts, but we can TRY to live by it, and asking for forgiveness whenever we stumble coz He will pick us up again, AMEN?
Originally posted by vince69:Dear Unker CE,
2) yes, holy living is an integral part of salvation. If works failed or is lacking, the individual is deemed not to have salvation or not to have accepted salvation genuinely.
I do have a question on the 2nd statement, that says "If works failed or is lacking, the individual is deemed not to have salvation or not to have accepted salvation genuinely."
This is based on whose perception?
The reason I have question on this is
As you had said "The sole condition is that the individual accepts that act as a fact and accepts Jesus as his personal saviour and allow Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) to work on him to change his life gradually." Whether of not, the acceptance of salvation is genuine, is based on whether or not the person truely and sincerely "accepts Jesus as his personal saviour and allow Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) to work on him to change his life gradually". This is a heart issue, not a work/deed issue.
1) yes for us, its true, from the outside, as what Apostle James said, "show me your faith with works", we can only see if this is true and sincere by the action/deeds we do, just like we know what tree it is by the type of fruits it bear, we know what type of faith we have by the type of fruits we bear.
2) no for God, for on the day the person say in his heart, that he wants to truely and sincerely "accepts Jesus as his personal saviour and allow Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) to work on him to change his life gradually", God already know if this is really true and sincere, for God knows our heart.
Then I would rather say:
1) (copied yours) Salvation was achieved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is a one time act, it is a gift. The sole condition is that the individual accepts that act as a fact and accepts Jesus as his personal saviour and allow Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) to work on him to change his life gradually.
2) Holy living is a result or fruit of having received this salvation which is a gift through Christ Jesus. Falling in love in Him and knowing we now lives in Him and for Him and no longer in the flesh in sin.
God Bless
actually i don't quite understand your question - a little tired this morning.
if your question is solely: This is based on whose perception?
then, my answer is: it is based on some discussion i've had recently on the issue of what good works have to do with salvation....
perhaps i may not have summarised it accurately enough...
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
@Yamizi I think masturbating still would me me feel guilty and I believe it is a sin too.
I think it beats watching pornography which the images will further stimulate your lust right?
It's like quitting smoking I guess. You have to do it gradually.
Maybe we should define what is being holy.
Living a holy life means your life is set apart for God. Your thoughts seek to please God and your actions seek to glorify Him. Anything that prevents you from having an open and healthy relationship with God and people around you should probably be labelled 'unholy'.
Yes, when we are saved, we are called to live a holy life.
It's h....a...........r.............d. Damn it!
Originally posted by sillyme:Maybe we should define what is being holy.
Living a holy life means your life is set apart for God. Your thoughts seek to please God and your actions seek to glorify Him. Anything that prevents you from having an open and healthy relationship with God and people around you should probably be labelled 'unholy'.
Yes, when we are saved, we are called to live a holy life.
Maybe we should consider what Yahweh considers holy?
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:As long as the motives were right I do not worry about people's impression on me.
It has never been between me and other people or between other people and my religion. It's not even between me and my religion but between me and my God.
I do not live to please my neighbors nor do I live to please my religion. But I try not to fall from the grace of the Lord because what I [really really] want nobody could give them to me except the Lord my God.
If I am a good person it is for the Lord,
If I am persistent it is for the Lord,
If I relented it is for the Lord,
if I'm outspoken it is for the Lord,
If I'm silent it is for the Lord,
if I am against many people it is for the Lord,
If I am for a few people it is for the Lord,
if I work hard it is for the Lord,
if I (have to) lose many things in this life it is for the Lord,
if I'm rich it is for the Lord,
if I'm poor it is for the Lord,
if I'm hated it is for Lord,
if I'm loved it is for the Lord,
if I'm praised it is for the Lord,
if I'm rejected and put down it is for the Lord.
Whatever will be I will not be dissapointed because the Lord is for me.
My two cents.
Well, in the way you are saying it, it doesn't matter to you whether people see your god is evil when you are drinking, swearing, posituting, etc... in front of people???
Do you think that HE would want that?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:actually i don't quite understand your question - a little tired this morning.
if your question is solely: This is based on whose perception?
then, my answer is: it is based on some discussion i've had recently on the issue of what good works have to do with salvation....
perhaps i may not have summarised it accurately enough...
Unker,
this one
"If works failed or is lacking, the individual is deemed not to have salvation or not to have accepted salvation genuinely."
based on whose perception? in other words, who have the real say on whether the person is saved (have salvation) or not? or who's opinion really matters on whether this person have accepted salvation genuinely?
God? man? priest? Pastors? Pope?
We see from the outside, as in on the fruits of this person (his deeds and good works...etc) in order to guess what is really inside.
God don't need these, He see deep into the heart and know what is really inside.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Maybe we should consider what Yahweh considers holy?
everyone pls stop and look at this..this is what God will want..as simple as that..stop and think, is your worship acceptable in God's eyes?
I would like to share this verse,
Luke 17:1-3 Faith and service
Jesus said to his disciples:
There will always be something that causes people to sin. But anyone who causes them to sin is in for trouble. A person who causes even one of my little followers to sin would be better off thrown into the ocean with a heavy stone tied around their neck. So be careful what you do.
Originally posted by vince69:
Unker,this one
"If works failed or is lacking, the individual is deemed not to have salvation or not to have accepted salvation genuinely."
based on whose perception? in other words, who have the real say on whether the person is saved (have salvation) or not? or who's opinion really matters on whether this person have accepted salvation genuinely?
God? man? priest? Pastors? Pope?
We see from the outside, as in on the fruits of this person (his deeds and good works...etc) in order to guess what is really inside.
God don't need these, He see deep into the heart and know what is really inside.
the line in red - based on some other folks' opinion - not mine.
it's been too long ago.... i think the debate was whether works was needed for salvation?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:the line in red - based on some other folks' opinion - not mine.
it's been too long ago.... i think the debate was whether works was needed for salvation?
Though I'm not a believer, but I think in your belief, work is not needed for salvation, however, if one, after accepting Christ, deliberately creating deeds that is against the work, that will hinder one's salvation.
Originally posted by yamizi:Though I'm not a believer, but I think in your belief, work is not needed for salvation, however, if one, after accepting Christ, deliberately creating deeds that is against the work, that will hinder one's salvation.
jc or Yeshua already said that works is also important. not just faith alone. if not wrong its in james..