religious harmony
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and im not using pagans to be the bench mark.nor was satan trying to imitate God's power only. he was trying to be better which of cuz is impossible. throughout the bible, it is very obvious pagans are a detestable thing in YHWH's eyes as well as in JC. it would then be detestable too to worship God with so many similarities to pagans. eg..xmas,easter,rosaries,idols.....
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
yoz dd..hows ur studying??your extract of john 1..no matter how i look supports not the idea of trinity wor..
through him all things were made..etc..it appears that JC was a medium between the forging power and the items being forged. just like how a manufactuer makes products based on clients orders.
then came a man from God,hes john.does not that part also describe JC role? to witness God's right of sovereignty.(besides the main quest of dying for us) and again it was stated JC came from the father.
hmm, it doesn't support the trinity, but it supports that Jesus is God. the trinity isn't found in the bible actually. it's just a term to explain how God is 1, but yet 3 persons.
because if you agree that Jesus is God, then in our... limited understanding, we are now seeing.. 3 Gods - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And God distinctively said He is One God.
I'm speaking about trinity, not triad.. i think the conflict you're feeling about 3 "gods" is this. you're thinking it in terms of the mormon's believe.
don't be mistaken, the trinity doctrine, isn't the same as the triad doctine.
http://www.carm.org/questions/god_trinity_triad.htm
i'm only here to support that Jesus is indeed God.
haha study ah. slow!!! u know i spent the entire afternoon revising up to chapter 5!, and my friend came over, glanced through and caught up with me already!! ah!!!!
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
and im not using pagans to be the bench mark.nor was satan trying to imitate God's power only. he was trying to be better which of cuz is impossible. throughout the bible, it is very obvious pagans are a detestable thing in YHWH's eyes as well as in JC. it would then be detestable too to worship God with so many similarities to pagans. eg..xmas,easter,rosaries,idols.....
and that's why protestant christians don't do rosaries and idols.
christmas.. is a celebration of Jesus birth, which.. isn't anything wrong in itself.
we don't call easter "easter" either, because easter is a pagan celebration actually, but for the sakes of unbelievers who recognise it as easter, we use it.
christians call it, ressurection sunday =) or at least my church calls it this way.
as for worshipping God.. Jesus says the true believers will worship in Spirit and in Truth. how you wish to worship, so long as it is truth in your heart, and according to the flow of the HS, it should not be judged right or not right.
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Isaiah 45:15
Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God and Savior of Israel.I do not really know why God decided to hide Himself from humanity. Perhaps because God for reasons that I do not understand have decided to put faith into a very important part of having a relationship with Him. You see God could work on everyone despite the person being faithless. Had He wanted to let every living men on earth to see Him now that would not be a problem imo. And even when God reveals something of Himself to anyone that revelation would likely not to be complete so that no one has a complete picture of understanding of God.
I know that Jesus is God because I had been given a vision of Jesus when I was in my 7th grade. From what I saw I know that Jesus is God. Of course there is no way I could show you what I saw so this remains a personal revelation for me.
You see you cannot approach God with logic. Do you think we humans are a very logical being? Tell me then why have we destroyed our own planet? For the sake of our wealth? What's the logic of destroying our planet for the sake of personal gain?
Do you know that most people buy things not because they need it but because they think they need it for whatever reason. You see even our spending habit doesn't reflect us as being of logic.
Do you know that the very concept of hobby is illogical?
You know the most logic could do is to exploit its observation of the law of nature. It could not answer everything on any subject of study. So logic is the observance of the law of nature and technology is the appliance of logic into machinery to exploit the knowledge gained from the observation derived from logic.
I do not write this to belittle logic or technology but come on logic is not everything, actually it is everything if we could have perfect understanding of everything but that is not possible thus our logic is not everything.
And I believe that if men could have perfect understanding of everythng then the existence of God would be very very logical indeed.
ehz..the things God does are logical which is evident. of cuz logic is not everything. love is.but love is not just feelings. the ish u quote,i will check later when free. and people does so many things that is not logical.being violent and selfish. destroying the planet etc..do you not see that they are the sons of devil?
as for your vision of God, you are not the only one i heard nor will you be the last i guess..but also refer back to the bible that since completing revelation, no mortal man will have such visions. which is another point why so many people claim to see this and that vision..also remember that satan in order to deceive WILL and OFTEN turn himself into an angel of light. the very same light that mere mortals will regard as the LIGHT of God.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
hmm, it doesn't support the trinity, but it supports that Jesus is God. the trinity isn't found in the bible actually. it's just a term to explain how God is 1, but yet 3 persons.
i'm only here to support that Jesus is indeed God.
haha study ah. slow!!! u know i spent the entire afternoon revising up to chapter 5!, and my friend came over, glanced through and caught up with me already!! ah!!!!
tats the point..what isnt found in the bible but being taught by men..that was my case all along...aiya,ur fren glanced thru might not have got the esscene mah..so dun wory lor.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
and that's why protestant christians don't do rosaries and idols. christmas.. is a celebration of Jesus birth, we don't call it easter either, because easter is a pagan celebration actually, but for the sakes of unbelievers who recognise it as easter, we use it.
christians call it, ressurection sunday =)
as for worshipping God.. Jesus says the true believers will worship in Spirit and in Truth. how you wish to worship, so long as it is truth in your heart, and according to the flow of the HS, it should not be judged right or not right.
so is xmas a pagan celebration in case you didnt know. dec 25th is the bday of the romans pagan sun god. it is when the winter will end and spring will come. part of the celebration includes mass orgies and other immorality.and the funny thing is, i cant find where in the bible tat states JC' bday, nor will it be in a gregorian calander. but according to bible, the night JC was born was a clear night and shepherds stay out in the open for the sheeps. translate dec 25th into hebrew will be a season of rains and no shepherds in their right mind will stay in the open. the miracle explanation dont stand too..cuz they wont even be there in the 1st place if its a rainy season.
a good guess of the month of JC's bday is on the nisan, same mth as he died. btw,the only 2 a/cs of bday celebration in the bible resulted in tragedies. one is a king who used the sacred cup or sth..den God's hand appear and vandalize his wall or sth..the 2nd a/c is nebuca-watever-u-spell-it if not wrong.
as for worshipping God, did not JC gave the know-how??
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
ehz..the things God does are logical which is evident. of cuz logic is not everything. love is.but love is not just feelings. the ish u quote,i will check later when free. and people does so many things that is not logical.being violent and selfish. destroying the planet etc..do you not see that they are the sons of devil?
as for your vision of God, you are not the only one i heard nor will you be the last i guess..but also refer back to the bible that since completing revelation, no mortal man will have such visions. which is another point why so many people claim to see this and that vision..also remember that satan in order to deceive WILL and OFTEN turn himself into an angel of light. the very same light that mere mortals will regard as the LIGHT of God.
that's why i don't believe immediately when ppl say they saw an apparation. it depends on the situation. like i remember i read this book, where this apparation appeared, a woman and a child, who claimed he is Jesus and gave some instructions etc.
firstly, Jesus always appeared as He is, a fully grown man. suddenly a child appears and claims He's Jesus, surely will have warning bells ringing in our heads, but some people believe la. and adopted the instructions into their belief system.
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
so is xmas a pagan celebration in case you didnt know. dec 25th is the bday of the romans pagan sun god. it is when the winter will end and spring will come. part of the celebration includes mass orgies and other immorality.and the funny thing is, i cant find where in the bible tat states JC' bday, nor will it be in a gregorian calander. but according to bible, the night JC was born was a clear night and shepherds stay out in the open for the sheeps. translate dec 25th into hebrew will be a season of rains and no shepherds in their right mind will stay in the open. the miracle explanation dont stand too..cuz they wont even be there in the 1st place if its a rainy season.
a good guess of the month of JC's bday is on the nisan, same mth as he died. btw,the only 2 a/cs of bday celebration in the bible resulted in tragedies. one is a king who used the sacred cup or sth..den God's hand appear and vandalize his wall or sth..the 2nd a/c is nebuca-watever-u-spell-it if not wrong.
as for worshipping God, did not JC gave the know-how??
honestly i wouldn't know. because i don't know Jesus's birthdate. i'll find out for you after my exam ba. =)
but as for.. your fears that pagan spirits will benefit from this celebration.. on that day, we spread the truth about Jesus' coming to die for our sins, we spread the good news, i'm not seeing how... pagan spirits or pagans will beneift from it.
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sad to say its true lor..so called visions are nothing but lies of the wicked one. after the wicked one kena hurled down,he really successful in drawing even more people to his side. how he managed to make people believe he dont exist and how he mae people believe his doctrines are holy...power sia he..
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
tats the point..what isnt found in the bible but being taught by men..that was my case all along...aiya,ur fren glanced thru might not have got the esscene mah..so dun wory lor.
hmm, like i said.. the trinity doctrine is an answer to how God is one, yet exist in 3 persons.
if no one ask this question, there wouldn't be a need to answer in the ideal of the trinity. so in the end, you have to blame those who question it. =)
don't use the word trinity lor, just understand that there is only 1 God, but He exists in 3 persons. as the bible suggests.
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
sad to say its true lor..so called visions are nothing but lies of the wicked one. after the wicked one kena hurled down,he really successful in drawing even more people to his side. how he managed to make people believe he dont exist and how he mae people believe his doctrines are holy...power sia he..
the bible tells us to test each spirit.
satan cannot tell the truth, because there is no truth in him. so ask him about the truth, he will lie about it.
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1stly, tats y he power at lying. and he damn intelligent though warped. he can come up with so many theories,practices,doctrines to warp just 1 truth..now thats thinking out of the box..
2ndly, trinity wise, it was 1st told, thats y it was asked. ever since RC started preaching it, more people have to ask to understand it mahz. cuz they wan to know God and trust enough that RC is trustworthy enough to teach the right way. all the way till me lor.they dun teach then i wont ask lor. they teach then i ask to better understand it mahz.
btw, isnt it much much more simpler to understand there is but 1 God. and he dont exist in 3 states? unity in purpose i can readily accept. unity in a God head..explain more to me bah. the way i see reponse to my qn of trinity, reminds me of the hindu faith. they oso 1 god. but manifest himself into thousands of forms to let his believers to pray to a particular aspect easily.
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
1stly, tats y he power at lying. and he damn intelligent though warped. he can come up with so many theories,practices,doctrines to warp just 1 truth..now thats thinking out of the box..
2ndly, trinity wise, it was 1st told, thats y it was asked. ever since RC started preaching it, more people have to ask to understand it mahz. cuz they wan to know God and trust enough that RC is trustworthy enough to teach the right way. all the way till me lor.they dun teach then i wont ask lor. they teach then i ask to better understand it mahz.
btw, isnt it much much more simpler to understand there is but 1 God. and he dont exist in 3 states? unity in purpose i can readily accept. unity in a God head..explain more to me bah. the way i see reponse to my qn of trinity, reminds me of the hindu faith. they oso 1 god. but manifest himself into thousands of forms to let his believers to pray to a particular aspect easily.
then u aren't teaching the truth that Jesus is God. lol. u see.. it's very hard to balance.. you either want to swing to either extremes, and both sides are wrong.
if you claim that there are 3 seperate gods, you have the triad.
if you claim that there is only one God, and He cannot appear in 3 persons, then you're saying Jesus isn't God, neither is the Holy Spirit, because there is already God the Father.
it's just 2 different extremes =)
and they are both wrong?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
then u aren't teaching the truth that Jesus is God. lol. u see.. it's very hard to balance.. you either want to swing to either extremes, and both sides are wrong.
if you claim that there are 3 seperate gods, you have the triad.
if you claim that there is only one God, and He cannot appear in 3 persons, then you're saying Jesus isn't God, neither is the Holy Spirit, because there is already God the Father.
it's just 2 different extremes =)
and they are both wrong?
ehz..iaint teaching if thats what u meant =p nor do i claim JC is God is truth.
so 3 seperate gods are called triad and 3 gods in 1 is called a trinity. what do you call just 1 God in himself? judaism?
i claim there is only one God for the bible said so. He appear in more than 3 persons in purpose. and yes, im saying neither JC nor HS is God too. and we cant be sure whos wrong now...
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
ehz..iaint teaching if thats what u meant =p nor do i claim JC is God is truth.
so 3 seperate gods are called triad and 3 gods in 1 is called a trinity. what do you call just 1 God in himself? judaism?
i claim there is only one God for the bible said so. He appear in more than 3 persons in purpose. and yes, im saying neither JC nor HS is God too. and we cant be sure whos wrong now...
if the bible says Jesus is God, then you say he isn't.. then who's telling the truth?
and if he isn't God, how can he die for the sins of man? since he'll just be man, and equally sinful?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
if the bible says Jesus is God, then you say he isn't.. then who's telling the truth?
and if he isn't God, how can he die for the sins of man? since he'll just be man, and equally sinful?
now this is easy..IF the bible says JC is God and i say hes not..obviously i lied or dun understand. lucky for me, its just an IF.
how he died fo sins of man is simple.how did sin 1st step in?? satan lied through snakey."snakey" lied to eve(perfect).eve(perfect) told adam(perfect) about it.both(perfect) took a bite.no longer perfect and sin comes with good ol death. in bible contxt,man wears the pants. meaning it took 1 perfect man to bring sin in. think of adam standing in one end of a scale. what does it take to balance the scale? obviously is another perfect man right?
nw,mary is just the dispenser.God transfered the prehuman JC into her,thus he does not inherit any sin, making him the 3rd perfect human to have appeared on earth. thus he is without inherited sin. nor does he later on in live sin against God for he is the only one who has been with God the longest period of time.
by the time he died, he is still sinless, now surely that balance the scale of perfection that adam gave up.
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
now this is easy..IF the bible says JC is God and i say hes not..obviously i lied or dun understand. lucky for me, its just an IF.
how he died fo sins of man is simple.how did sin 1st step in?? satan lied through snakey."snakey" lied to eve(perfect).eve(perfect) told adam(perfect) about it.both(perfect) took a bite.no longer perfect and sin comes with good ol death. in bible contxt,man wears the pants. meaning it took 1 perfect man to bring sin in. think of adam standing in one end of a scale. what does it take to balance the scale? obviously is another perfect man right?
nw,mary is just the dispenser.God transfered the prehuman JC into her,thus he does not inherit any sin, making him the 3rd perfect human to have appeared on earth. thus he is without inherited sin. nor does he later on in live sin against God for he is the only one who has been with God the longest period of time.
by the time he died, he is still sinless, now surely that balance the scale of perfection that adam gave up.
Hullo,
I'll try to use ur examples.
According to ur scale, 1 perfect man on one end, 1 perfect man on the other. Then are all the sins of the world redeemed? Can one created being save another created being? If Jesus was that perfect man, created nonetheless, he can only redeem the sins of another man at best.
THe sins of the world, is something that only something on a God-scale can do. Or someone with the fullness / nature of God. Jesus was begotten, not made. Man was made (created), as was angels, in God's image (not bestowed with His nature). In this case, the analogy of the father and son (family) playing with clay makes sense. We're that clay.
Hence we (Christians) affirm they're of ONE substance / essence. 3 of 1, not 1 of 3. Pls don't fret, we're still monotheistic.
DA Carson says this of the Trinity, 1 + 1 + 1 =3. But infinity + infinity + infinity = ??
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maybe u forgotten God has no begining. so there is no logic in God begets God. that would make the begotten God a lesser god. and not almighty. john 3:16 makes no explict notion that JC is God either. having an identical nature do not = to being the same person. just like twins or close friends who have identical nature. does that makes them the same and 1 person? also, your last statement..remember God has no equal..
You wouldnt know the process of how God begets God, would you? We're mere creations, and some of these things are hidden mysteries to us, till God reveals Himself. This is something common in all faiths. We follow what He chooses to tell us through His Word.
God has no beginning, Genesis starts with God already in the picture and how He began the work of creation. John starts with similar picture but except he says The Word was also there with God from the beginning. This suggests the preexistence (before the beginning of human-time) of Jesus.
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Originally posted by 24/7:
Hullo,
I'll try to use ur examples.
According to ur scale, 1 perfect man on one end, 1 perfect man on the other. Then are all the sins of the world redeemed? Can one created being save another created being? If Jesus was that perfect man, created nonetheless, he can only redeem the sins of another man at best.
THe sins of the world, is something that only something on a God-scale can do. Or someone with the fullness / nature of God. Jesus was begotten, not made. Man was made (created), as was angels, in God's image (not bestowed with His nature). In this case, the analogy of the father and son (family) playing with clay makes sense. We're that clay.
Hence we (Christians) affirm they're of ONE substance / essence. 3 of 1, not 1 of 3. Pls don't fret, we're still monotheistic.
DA Carson says this of the Trinity, 1 + 1 + 1 =3. But infinity + infinity + infinity = ??
my "scale' was the point that it took 1 perfect man to bring sin into the world. to redeem that, it takes another perfect man to counter it. y else would JC being called the last adam? now since God is only one, it would normally be impossible to beget anything else. therefore,he has to create the prehuman JC. fast forward that to mary's time, God then transfered JC down to earth. thus "creating" the human JC. that JC is also charged with the authority to erase man's sin. surely when God says you can do this and that means you can do it right?
as for the clay thingy, yes we are,as are all other but God.
DA Carson analogy of 1+1+1=3 but 00+00+00=00 is valid.undisputed. however, infinity also meant no end or beginning. JC has a beginning not from mary but begotten from God. thus he is no longer infinite. HS wiese, heck, it doesnt even have tat much media coverage in the bible as the father and son. you tell people abt lky and lhl people know. u tell people about gct, they say goh who again? in fact HS wasnt even being refered to as a he or she, not tat it really matters, but obviously like i said b4, 1 supreme, 1 lesser and 1 xtra lor.
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
my "scale' was the point that it took 1 perfect man to bring sin into the world. to redeem that, it takes another perfect man to counter it. y else would JC being called the last adam? now since God is only one, it would normally be impossible to beget anything else. therefore,he has to create the prehuman JC. fast forward that to mary's time, God then transfered JC down to earth. thus "creating" the human JC. that JC is also charged with the authority to erase man's sin. surely when God says you can do this and that means you can do it right?
as for the clay thingy, yes we are,as are all other but God.
DA Carson analogy of 1+1+1=3 but 00+00+00=00 is valid.undisputed. however, infinity also meant no end or beginning. JC has a beginning not from mary but begotten from God. thus he is no longer infinite. HS wiese, heck, it doesnt even have tat much media coverage in the bible as the father and son. you tell people abt lky and lhl people know. u tell people about gct, they say goh who again? in fact HS wasnt even being refered to as a he or she, not tat it really matters, but obviously like i said b4, 1 supreme, 1 lesser and 1 xtra lor.
Does infinity have any meaning with God?
Does God see an end or beginning to infinity (which by the way, is from Man's perspective)?
Can finite man comprehend infinity?
I'm not here to dispute whether Jesus has a beginning or not, my argument is that the bible reveals the fullness of God in Jesus. That God's nature is in Him. Doesnt matter if terms like Trinity are not found within the bible. Terms we use to describe God's nature (omniscent, omnipresent) are not inside as well. Do we not use them? These are concepts that we glean from His Word. (RCs didnt coin the word, the early church fathers did. And they're certainly not RC. Probably RCs came about 5th or 6th century, but that's another story)
As i said, 1 perfect man (created) to bring sin in. 1 perfect man (created) to bring it away, only redeems the sin of 1. Not the world.
now since God is only one, it would normally be impossible to beget anything else.
From man's POV, impossible. Neither do we say there are three. But if God wills it, why not? As you said,
surely when God says you can do this and that means you can do it right?
If He chooses to beget His Son, and reveals it as such, with indication of the Father-Son relationship, who are we to determine that's not possible?
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every god is exclusive under the guidiance of that,harmony seems quite rare.
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god, i just woke up!
so sleepy!! *slap slap slap*
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go sleep,alright,maybe god can sent u a dream.lol
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
.....do you not see that they are the sons of devil?
as for your vision of God, you are not the only one i heard nor will you be the last i guess..
but also refer back to the bible that since completing revelation, no mortal man will have such visions.
which is another point why so many people claim to see this and that vision..also remember that satan in order to deceive WILL and OFTEN turn himself into an angel of light. the very same light that mere mortals will regard as the LIGHT of God.
Yes I'm sure not the only living man who had been given the vision as God is the living God and God of the living too. I don't think the bible ever mentioned that no mortal men would be given vision of God or Jesus. Besides I know what I saw or what I experienced was not my own fantasy.
Yes the devil would deceive men but get some sense and get real...the devil would not repeat would never try to imitate God Himself. Besides God gave me a surge of total love for Jesus right before I was given(I asked to see the face of Jesus) the vision of Jesus. That love was real and I would never think that the devil able to give me such great love for Jesus. Don't be paranoid as to think everything miraculous that happens is from the devil. Again it was personal so I knew what I saw and what Ifelt while other people may be suspicious because they don't know.
I too once thought Jesus was lesser than the Father so I asked to see Jesus face and instead got a glimpse of His glory that hurted my eyeballs literally in the end as I tried too hard/forced myself to penetrate the light that was coming from His face.
Yes many people claim to see that vision or this vision I would not trust them so easily too unless I know what kind of person he/she is. People lie all the time so don't take people who claim that they've been given this vision or that vision easily.
I too for several years have been 'allowed' sometimes though not very often to feel what other people feel literally. And sometimes but quite rare to know what would happen ahead of time. I approach these with caution as the trick of the devil is real. My take is as long as it doesn't hurt my faith and my salvation and gives me strength and add to my faith I do not see them the work of the devil. Of course this too is personal and I don't force nor I'm trying to make anyone to believe me. I'm simply telling you what it is from my own experience.
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Originally posted by 24/7:
Does infinity have any meaning with God?
Does God see an end or beginning to infinity (which by the way, is from Man's perspective)?
Can finite man comprehend infinity?
I'm not here to dispute whether Jesus has a beginning or not, my argument is that the bible reveals the fullness of God in Jesus. That God's nature is in Him. Doesnt matter if terms like Trinity are not found within the bible. Terms we use to describe God's nature (omniscent, omnipresent) are not inside as well. Do we not use them? These are concepts that we glean from His Word. (RCs didnt coin the word, the early church fathers did. And they're certainly not RC. Probably RCs came about 5th or 6th century, but that's another story)
As i said, 1 perfect man (created) to bring sin in. 1 perfect man (created) to bring it away, only redeems the sin of 1. Not the world.
From man's POV, impossible. Neither do we say there are three. But if God wills it, why not? As you said,
If He chooses to beget His Son, and reveals it as such, with indication of the Father-Son relationship, who are we to determine that's not possible?
the fullness of God through JC isnt even justified much less in him. however, that does not mean i belittle JC. JC no doubt is the only one who can imitate God as well as none other can due to they being the closest.
as for terms describing God's nature might not be in the bible word for word, but the context do. however in terms of trinity. everything immeidately comes to a conflict and blur.
as u said 1 man brough sin in and 1 man bring sin out. the point being refused here is that 1 man gave the whole world sins. so its fair to say 1 man bring all tat sins away. tat there shall be no more sins thereafter( dont really mean literally disappear but terms and conditions apply).
lastly, the way u phrase it for the God willing it part, it sounds like the lame qn of can god create a stone so heavy tat he cant lift it.
and he did begets the son and declared their r/s. clear as anything can be when JC was baptised by john.