No offence to christians..
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Originally posted by playboy_1985:
but dunno why leh, i always feel anti-christians esp when they start preaching about this and that...
i mean i know there are those sincere ones around, but i feel most of them convert just for the sake of coverting, peer pressure or just follow friends.
and i hear so many stuff about christians cannot do this cannot do that, yet i see so many gays, gamblers, premarital sex in the religion.
the fake reality of christianity in singapore
*mod if this thread offensive, can just close*
all the kiddish christians can go fuck spider
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Originally posted by gigabyte14:
all the kiddish christians can go fuck spider
u said like that u not afraid they come after you, curse you. giga, I thot u christian also leh. U kena bully by christian before or not?
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Originally posted by qlqq9:
u said like that u not afraid they come after you, curse you. giga, I thot u christian also leh. U kena bully by christian before or not?
no la, i'm taoist
and i'm not siding with my religion too
its like, there are so many christian people at the age of about >18, who thinks that being a christian means "higher class", always giving that smug attitude, like only christians can speak to fellow christians
so many churches nowadays, which i forgot how many, always stand at roadsides, trying to convert us, to make us join them
my friend said he went to a church(which i will not name) just to have a look, and he says that there is so much more than just attending
it's like, brainwashing session
if you look at buddhists and taoist people, or other religions like muslim, or hindu, i swear, never in my life i have seen them trying to force people to convert to their religion of interest.
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Orginally posted by domonkassyu:
true christiandom never condemn non-believers to hell for a few reasons.1st is cuz no hell exist. 2nd, during armageddon, many will be resurrected and given a chance to know Yodh Heh Wah Heh. and to accept His sovereign rule.only those that despite being shown the truth of what happen still decide to side with the slanderer will die a permanent death.(read not ending up in hell but permanent death)
the thing about believeing in God or not is do we understand what was the whole cause of it. why was the perfect and beautiful angel known as satan the devil?why people have to take sides?once you understand that, then you will answer your own qns. and Yodh Heh Wah Heh loves his subjects to ask qns about him.not just blind faith like so many exhibit now.
Your theology is rather unorthodox. Almost every christian denomination believe in the land of eternal BBQ. Do you also believe in the NT? How about Satan? I am not only curious but also intrigued by your theological position.
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Originally posted by gigabyte14:
no la, i'm taoist
and i'm not siding with my religion too
its like, there are so many christian people at the age of about >18, who thinks that being a christian means "higher class", always giving that smug attitude, like only christians can speak to fellow christians
so many churches nowadays, which i forgot how many, always stand at roadsides, trying to convert us, to make us join them
my friend said he went to a church(which i will not name) just to have a look, and he says that there is so much more than just attending
it's like, brainwashing session
if you look at buddhists and taoist people, or other religions like muslim, or hindu, i swear, never in my life i have seen them trying to force people to convert to their religion of interest.
giga, actually i don't blame them for being eager to convert for they are asked to do so. What really piss ppl off is the way they do it. If you come across anyone touting religion, to tell the police for I believe they are not allowed to.
Not all, but most christians have bad attitudes and some are evil. Be careful of them. Look out and be careful of those who preach but their actions show otherwise.
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Originally posted by qlqq9:
giga, actually i don't blame them for being eager to convert for they are asked to do so. What really piss ppl off is the way they do it. If you come across anyone touting religion, to tell the police for I believe they are not allowed to.
Not all, but most christians have bad attitudes and some are evil. Be careful of them. Look out and be careful of those who preach but their actions show otherwise.
Dumdumb, see......did people like qlqq9 hear the good news ? Or did they hear the bad news?
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Originally posted by gigabyte14:
no la, i'm taoist
and i'm not siding with my religion too
its like, there are so many christian people at the age of about >18, who thinks that being a christian means "higher class", always giving that smug attitude, like only christians can speak to fellow christians
so many churches nowadays, which i forgot how many, always stand at roadsides, trying to convert us, to make us join them
my friend said he went to a church(which i will not name) just to have a look, and he says that there is so much more than just attending
it's like, brainwashing session
if you look at buddhists and taoist people, or other religions like muslim, or hindu, i swear, never in my life i have seen them trying to force people to convert to their religion of interest.
Dumddumb, is that not something christians should reflect on? What kind of impressions does christians give to non-believers?
Where is the good news ? Do you think there is a chance to convert ? Or will non-believers be even more pissed off and HATE christians more ?
This this for Christ or anti-Christ?
Such actions made evangelisation much harder......it's not because you are a christians, it's because you do not know how to behave as one.
I hope these 2 example, plus yours, resulting in a challenge that people are still waiting for your reply........ will convince you that attituide need to change and evanglesiation is not all about "chiong ah"!!!!!!!!!!
It's about letting non-believers "hear the good news". They will only be willing to listen if you can prove to them that God exist - in you!
How? By being a changed person that show love, sincerity and compassion towards everybody else regardless if they are your family, friends or non-believers. It's easy as you only need to prove that you really have faith in Jesus by following ALL His teachings - to love God and to love your neighbour (I repeat enough time for you liao).
If you do show love from your heart and not hate, people will see the "Jesus" in you.....they will not ask you to prove but will ask you what make you change, what make you believe in God and what's God's love......Actions speaks louder than words. Remember, if you have shown love to the least of one of my brothers and sisters, you have shown love to God.
Read the bible carefully (with love and not hate) and think, did Jesus spread the good news by loving others (such as healings, forgiving and loving) ? Did He do it by deeds (actions) with love or by talking cock?
So many christians tell non-believers that God loves them yet they cannot feel it? Why? Because God's love can only be felt when those christians show love. Why they cannot show love? Because they don't know what's God's love themselves and they don't know how they must love God - i.e. they do not follow Jesus's commandment.
So how to convince ?
Start by knowing what you believe in first, really knowing what your faith is about before even trying to spread the good news.
And if you still think that it is not necessary to pray and follow Jesus, then why be a christians? Are you one of the black sheep that people are talking about?
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Your theology is rather unorthodox. Almost every christian denomination believe in the land of eternal BBQ. Do you also believe in the NT? How about Satan? I am not only curious but also intrigued by your theological position.—creation 1656
yep..i understand all christians believe in your eternal BBQ land(sounds fun actually).as do all other religion..like i said, even the longest lived human according to Bible is adam who lived what 900+ years?? say he sinned for 700yrs..700 years compared to eternity of torment..still doesnt make God sounds fair to me.the bible explicitly states God is fair is it not?
it also mentions some cities were to burn in fire and sulphur til time indefinite. this was the same description of hell.but we all know those cities are not buring til now right??rather,they were never rebuilt to be populated..in the same light, sinners who dont repent to die out permanently never to live again will harmonize with the above scenario.by sinners i mean also satan and friends.
as for New testament..yes i do read and believe.for all who want to know God must know both Old n New testament.
Satan was named in Qu'ran as another name.in the bible,we know him only as satan..however that is not his name.thats a title just like God,LORD,ALMIGHTY yada yada yada....
he is a smooth talker that talked countless to death.for sin originated with him and through sin comes death. hes most probably a lawyer should he manifest himself
24/7..sory i cant quote bible like those devoted christians(im not a christian) but i do remeber something along the line that christ said that he in one with the father as with the holy spirit and that those that put faith in him may also becomes one with him.in turn becomes one with the father??so now i get more than a 3 in 1 mix??
the mystictism of the trinity goes on...is the son also his father? is the sender the same as the sent? is the one who subjects himself to a higher power also the same higher power he subjected to himself?the same quotes you gave was the same thing pastors level gave me..and fumbled.
give the bible to a person with no bibical knowledge and let him/her finish it. and s/he will tell you that they are 3 seperate entities.
the bible is an auto bio graphy of God.written by many mortals..inspired by Himself(maybe in christians' cases,themselves). while its no science textbook or history book..it is also not a book on the mystical stuff. He (again maybe They) wants us to know about him and acknowledge him as the rightful ruler,thats why he put in his name more than 7000 times in the bible. yet now hardly anyone know his name or those that know cant pronounce it.
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the mystictism of the trinity goes on...is the son also his father? is the sender the same as the sent? is the one who subjects himself to a higher power also the same higher power he subjected to himself?the same quotes you gave was the same thing pastors level gave me..and fumbled.
give the bible to a person with no bibical knowledge and let him/her finish it. and s/he will tell you that they are 3 seperate entities.
Hi domon,
can i humbly suggest to you that you're pretty confused about legitimate (to me) Christian doctrines. You're using terms which i've heard of, but vaguely expressed in concepts which are pretty far out of mainstream Christianity. I don't know you personally, but if you so desire, you can seek out some reliable believers who might be able to sort out some fallacies. Not megachurches, but, im going out on a limb here, presbyterians or bible presbyterians churches.
While some believers might not have strong reasons why they believe in the faith intellectually, you do not have strong knowledge of why you don't believe.
I don't know all the arguments out there for disbelief, but Christianity is my chosen starting ground because it can reasonably answer 4 aspects of world view: origin, meaning, morality, destiny.
Its true that the bible read by itself can be pretty confusing, but this dubious honour is not reserved to religious documents alone. Our knowledge of GOD isnt complete, even if His revelation to us is. That's why we try to rely on systematic frameworks and theology to inform our beliefs.
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Originally posted by qlqq9:
giga, actually i don't blame them for being eager to convert for they are asked to do so. What really piss ppl off is the way they do it. If you come across anyone touting religion, to tell the police for I believe they are not allowed to.
Not all, but most christians have bad attitudes and some are evil. Be careful of them. Look out and be careful of those who preach but their actions show otherwise.
ya, but not all are evil la
some really want to help, which i can tell
but there are some who wanted people to go in, just for donations, and just for that sense of 'achievement' and their heads will turn 90 degrees upstairs and they'll be like WOAH I AM SO GREAT
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
Dumddumb, is that not something christians should reflect on? What kind of impressions does christians give to non-believers?
Where is the good news ? Do you think there is a chance to convert ? Or will non-believers be even more pissed off and HATE christians more ?
This this for Christ or anti-Christ?
Such actions made evangelisation much harder......it's not because you are a christians, it's because you do not know how to behave as one.
I hope these 2 example, plus yours, resulting in a challenge that people are still waiting for your reply........ will convince you that attituide need to change and evanglesiation is not all about "chiong ah"!!!!!!!!!!
It's about letting non-believers "hear the good news". They will only be willing to listen if you can prove to them that God exist - in you!
How? By being a changed person that show love, sincerity and compassion towards everybody else regardless if they are your family, friends or non-believers. It's easy as you only need to prove that you really have faith in Jesus by following ALL His teachings - to love God and to love your neighbour (I repeat enough time for you liao).
If you do show love from your heart and not hate, people will see the "Jesus" in you.....they will not ask you to prove but will ask you what make you change, what make you believe in God and what's God's love......Actions speaks louder than words. Remember, if you have shown love to the least of one of my brothers and sisters, you have shown love to God.
Read the bible carefully (with love and not hate) and think, did Jesus spread the good news by loving others (such as healings, forgiving and loving) ? Did He do it by deeds (actions) with love or by talking cock?
So many christians tell non-believers that God loves them yet they cannot feel it? Why? Because God's love can only be felt when those christians show love. Why they cannot show love? Because they don't know what's God's love themselves and they don't know how they must love God - i.e. they do not follow Jesus's commandment.
So how to convince ?
Start by knowing what you believe in first, really knowing what your faith is about before even trying to spread the good news.
And if you still think that it is not necessary to pray and follow Jesus, then why be a christians? Are you one of the black sheep that people are talking about?
siao ah u
this way you're shooting all christians
i also don't hate christians, they're humans also wat
and there'll always be good and bad christians, the same that every religion has
only that we've seen more of the dark side of christians
if we think about it, there are also quite a lot of swindlers in buddhism/taoism also, like you see the ah bengs on religious functions, one look and i can tell is cheaters of gullible old folks
every religion have their good and bad sides la
and please watch your words
the battle of christianity and islamism started by a mild quarrel too
stereotyping, stereotyping
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Originally posted by gigabyte14:
siao ah u
this way you're shooting all christians
i also don't hate christians, they're humans also wat
and there'll always be good and bad christians, the same that every religion has
only that we've seen more of the dark side of christians
if we think about it, there are also quite a lot of swindlers in buddhism/taoism also, like you see the ah bengs on religious functions, one look and i can tell is cheaters of gullible old folks
every religion have their good and bad sides la
and please watch your words
the battle of christianity and islamism started by a mild quarrel too
stereotyping, stereotyping
Funny right, now you are defending christians.....because there are good ones...this is the point I want to make.
For those whose actions non-believers do not like, it's time to reflect and change the ways of evangelisation....how ? Speak to your pastor.... Take all these negative response in a postive light and learn something out of it.
gigabyte14, I am a Christian (Catholic) and I am proud of it. Not stereotyping but I think some christians way of reaching out need to change...
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Originally posted by 24/7:
Its true that the bible read by itself can be pretty confusing, but this dubious honour is not reserved to religious documents alone. Our knowledge of GOD isnt complete, even if His revelation to us is. That's why we try to rely on systematic frameworks and theology to inform our beliefs.
Have to disagree, Hashem is a GOD of order not confusion. Hashem has given the full and complete Torah to Moses at Sinai. Knowledge of Hashem is incomplete because they refused to learn Torah from people that know Torah.
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Hi domon,
can i humbly suggest to you that you're pretty confused about legitimate (to me) Christian doctrines. You're using terms which i've heard of, but vaguely expressed in concepts which are pretty far out of mainstream Christianity. I don't know you personally, but if you so desire, you can seek out some reliable believers who might be able to sort out some fallacies. Not megachurches, but, im going out on a limb here, presbyterians or bible presbyterians churches.
While some believers might not have strong reasons why they believe in the faith intellectually, you do not have strong knowledge of why you don't believe.
I don't know all the arguments out there for disbelief, but Christianity is my chosen starting ground because it can reasonably answer 4 aspects of world view: origin, meaning, morality, destiny.
Its true that the bible read by itself can be pretty confusing, but this dubious honour is not reserved to religious documents alone. Our knowledge of GOD isnt complete, even if His revelation to us is. That's why we try to rely on systematic frameworks and theology to inform our beliefs.
hi 24/7 ^^
thanks for the keen interest in responding to my opinions.
in a way i m confused about so called mainstream doctrines. especially so cause no single one i met managed to answer trinity comprehensively to me. and the quest goes on for me to find one who can.
i dont quite get what you mean by i do not have a strong knowledge of why i dont believe.
the bible (notice i dont say Christainnity) also answered 4 aspects of world view origin( God's creation), meaning(bible principals.), morality(laws & principals), destiny(there is no destiny as in the bible)
indeed i cant quote biblical quotes nor do i carry a bible with me 24/7 to refer. so i might not be able to support my ideas now..(heck, if my boss know im here,im screwed)
the bible needs some kind of supporting materialsto assist people to understand..and often such materials will be manipulated to serve man's needs.
my points are not mainstream. so many will say im wrong. did not the rabbis in Christ time also said christ was wrong?
the point is not because its mainstream,it is rite.people now do not understand the impact of the wrathful serpent.
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Originally posted by Creation1656:
Have to disagree, Hashem is a GOD of order not confusion. Hashem has given the full and complete Torah to Moses at Sinai. Knowledge of Hashem is incomplete because they refused to learn Torah from people that know Torah.
huh, ur fond of eisegesis leh.since when did i say GOD was confusing? if u read the bible alone, of course you wont understand all of it, some help from theologians and mature believers will help, just like Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts.
Jews do not believe the Torah to be complete too lor, then whats the use of your Oral Tradition and Talmud.
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sorry but i seriously find some followers like sumone dun practice wat he preach.
he really like to step into others' affair n not minding his own business.
example like demeaning others n trying to put them down?
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Originally posted by 798:
sorry but i seriously find some followers like sumone dun practice wat he preach.
he really like to step into others' affair n not minding his own business.
example like demeaning others n trying to put them down?
Hi everyone,
Nvm 798 and carry on with your discussion. 798 is just letting his issues against me boil over into other places. It started being about soccer but now he is dragging religion into it.
Bye all
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Originally posted by 24/7:
Jews do not believe the Torah to be complete too lor, then whats the use of your Oral Tradition and Talmud.
Hi 24/7,
To understand the relationship between the Written and Oral Torah, useing this example. In another thread in this forum, using the example of Mrlimkopi and dumbdumb. The NT teaches christian to love your neighbour, but dumbdumb, has an issue with catholic, so how? ChinEng advise dumbdumb to chill. Has dumbdumb trangress the written code? Can we blame dumbdumb? Surely not, everyone of us transgress the written code of law given in the bible. From these transgression we learn to overcome our human weakness, to prevail, to improve. Thus the (oral?) advise from an elder christian to a younger christian to chill. Out of hate, we may learn to love, to overcome our hate, to be human, to draw closer to GOD.
To quote Solomon:
A Time for Everything
1There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven--
2A time to give birth and a time to die;
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
3A time to kill and a time to heal;
A time to tear down and a time to build up.
4A time to weep and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn and a time to dance.
5A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.
6A time to search and a time to give up as lost;
A time to keep and a time to throw away.
7A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;
A time to be silent and a time to speak.
8A time to love and a time to hate;
A time for war and a time for peace. NASBSo, the Torah is the written code which Hashem has given to humankind and the oral torah is like the interpretation of how we are to live according to the written code. Of course different sages will give their diverse and even conflicting views. If everything is simple and straightforward, in black and white, than our Earth would be like heaven, right? We human have free will to chose, please chose wisely, for the rewards at the end of our struggle, would be, like the christian belief - Heaven. In the context of Judaism, a share in the world to come.
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huh, ur fond of eisegesis leh
though some are my own ideas..but i dont claim credits for all that i expressed out..but then again. is not some many sects of christianity the results of eisegesis???otherwise we would have a complete pure worship...
since when did i say GOD was confusing? if u read the bible alone, of course you wont understand all of it, some help from theologians and mature believers will help, just like Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts.
i believe i didnt say u said God was confusing..i simply copy/paste what you typed..so maybe if u scroll up then u will see.. ^^
as for the mature believers part..diff ppl gave diff answer..so how?i even thought of gettin a O' level for bible study..
Jews do not believe the Torah to be complete too lor, then whats the use of your Oral Tradition and Talmud.
of cuz torah not complete...cuz thats jus the law.like i said, they still waiting for the messiah's 1st arrival...and the oral tradition and talmud....they are not mine...
when a lie is being told often and long enough..it starts to become the truth..even when some1 tells the truth one day..no1 will believe it....until unless those involved steps forward.
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i believe i didnt say u said God was confusing..i simply copy/paste what you typed..so maybe if u scroll up then u will see.. ^^
as for the mature believers part..diff ppl gave diff answer..so how?i even thought of gettin a O' level for bible study..
Jews do not believe the Torah to be complete too lor, then whats the use of your Oral Tradition and Talmud.
of cuz torah not complete...cuz thats jus the law.like i said, they still waiting for the messiah's 1st arrival...and the oral tradition and talmud....they are not mine...
Hi domon,
misunderstanding. that reply was for Creation1656, not u. =)
guess what i want to say is that there are people out there who can respond adequately to ur questions, not answer ALL of them. These are some things that would be better discussed directly instead of typing via forums or msn.
Of course, pls dont ask the Christians who merely advocate, 'dont ask so much, jus believe'. But its hard to avoid them, cuz their presence can be felt rather significantly. =)
i wonder why u would say the bible, instead of Christianity?
talking abt bible, i do agree that truth can be manipulated. as i do research assignments for sch, i feel that one can almost argue anything to be true, backing it up with previous research, hypothesis, etc. Effectively, even in these discussions, what we're doing is merely having a discourse, instead of reaching anything concrete. effects of postmodernity? maybe.
oh ya, about mainstream ideas and Christ not being mainstream. Is that he has already come, the apostles has laid down a stream of teachings, the church fathers and theologians throughout the age have systematized them and divided into several frameworks. So, there is a body of knowledge, safely out of which Christians can conclude that they're no longer mainstream, and could even be heretical.Don't ask me to tell u the boundaries of such, cuz it'd be hard for me to lay it down here.
Heard a preacher once say, after 2000 years, could there be any more new revelation about a certain passage etc that scholars and theologians have not discussed through the ages ... now im sure there'd be people out there who'd argue 'sure, why not, GOD is infinite blah blah'. But im applying this quote more to certain liberal preachers who take the Word of GOD to mean whatever they want (e.g. Word of faith, health and wealth, open theists).
Basically, im trying to say there's a plumb line to which we can measure legitimacy of doctrines.
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Hi Creation,
Wrote that in a hurry so i didnt quite explain properly.
I got the impression that when u said the Torah was full and complete, u meant that the Christian bible isnt. Which is of course, contradictory to what we Christians believe. Like you believe the Torah is complete, we believe the perfect revelation of the Word of GOD has come thru the bible (OT + NT). But it needs to be understood as a whole, not taking chunks here and there out of context. As i've said, revelation is perfect, but human understanding isnt.
I also believe GOD is of order, not confusion. When i said the bible needs 2b understood by people (theologians, scholars etc) explaning it to you, how is that different from the Jewish use of the Oral Torah and Talmud? From a more knowledgeable to a less knowing believer? You have your commentaries, so do we.
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Hi Creation,
Again. just came to my mind. How reliable is the Oral Tradition? Whose views were accepted within and how was the acceptability determined? Who were this people? Can people add new stuff to it through the ages?
Im not trying to discredit it, neither do i hope you're discrediting the NT (but i can only hope). Like i said, my faith is inherently related to yours, and as i said b4, i think there's a lot of wisdom in the Torah.
Knowledge of Hashem is incomplete because they refused to learn Torah from people that know Torah
'They'? Christians?
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Originally posted by 24/7:
'They'? Christians?
To answer your question, I quote the following verses:
10All that generation also were gathered to their fathers; and there arose another generation after them who did not know the LORD, nor yet the work which He had done for Israel.
11Then the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD and served the Baals,
12and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger. NASB
I believe that this is a problem faced by both Jews and christians. Imagine the countless sects in christianity. Every person will claim that his version is correct and others wrong.
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I believe that this is a problem faced by both Jews and christians. Imagine the countless sects in christianity. Every person will claim that his version is correct and others wrong.
and your point / meaning / suggestion / hypothesis is...
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Originally posted by 24/7:
and your point / meaning / suggestion / hypothesis is...
Hi 24/7,
Let me use an example from the Mishnah. This is about the reciting of the Shema in the evening.
1.1
A. From what time may they recite the Shema in the evening?
B. From the hour that the priests enter (their homes) to eat their heave offering,
C. "until the end of the first watch"
D. the word of R. Eliezer.
E. But sages says, "Until midnight."
F. Rabban Gamaliel's says, "Until the rise of dawn." The mishnah, a new translation, Jacob Neusner, Yale University Press. p 3.
From the above, who is right and who is wrong? Did any of the sages insist that he is the only person who has the correct interpretation? This is the beauty of the Mishnah.