No offence to christians..
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like what i say, the future will judge them. If he really exists, then you will be looked as demi gods, but if it ends up in the other direction, then you will be scoffed at.
time will tell, but the track record of religions isnt very good, more and more are getting debunked as the human race progresses, i still can't find one religion with its position or crediblity strengthen with the advancement of science. Religion evolves with human times. Its all in the human mind
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If a religion is really so good and god LOVES US ALL, then why should the non-believers be comdemned to hell, if jesus really loves us? If your son is naughty, you will still love him at the end of the day, even when hes naughty, why not just let it flow by itself and i dun think that making threats would force people to believe out of their own beliefs, I think that perhaps show the world examples, would be a better way to do it.
So the point is believe me or die?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
true. But you don't need a big miracle to believe. What you need is a personal disaster, and have nowhere else to turn to, except for God. but are you willing to go through that?
my dad found God, when he, when struck with a face infection with no cure, was cured by God. My aunt and family found God, when she had cancer, and so many miracles occurred to them, small blessings of hope, when she's alive.
sometimes, some people need to be cut off from everything that is good, before they realise that they are indeed helpless.
i am right to say if you believe in god, then all your bad things will go away? Ok if you are a true believer, why not we both head down to the cancer foundation, AND DO SOME GOOD DEEDS, and get some of the patients to believe in god, which they will since you say that " What you need is a personal disaster, and have nowhere else to turn to, except for God. but are you willing to go through that?" , then we observe their conditions, we go the the law firm to sign papers.
If they are cured, then i give you all my possesions, if you lose the other way around, hows that? We can do good deeds and spread the good will of god, the money you get you can donate to chruch if you want
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
like the first chapter of java programming text book says: "what better way to learn swimming, than to dive in and get wet?"
obviously, personal experiences will always stay in your mind the LONGEST time, even more when mistakes are made.
can i ask you a question? do you know what happens when a person jumps off from the 20th storey?
i have never tried that before, but i can tell you he will die, you can try at your own risk, and i am sure that if you tried it, you will rem it forever.
fools learn from their own mistakes, wise men learn from the mistakes of others.
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why not make it snappy? you jump off building to prove god is here, since you so devoted, i am sure god will make you a saint and miracles will come, you dun need scared one, he can 'cure cancer' , you still scared of what, then i will donate my everything to GOD and do his bidding forever......... all my friends and family all come join your cause, if you survive..... :)
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Originally posted by snowfoxx:
yeah. for 2008 years already. wheres him? I didnt see him, when the muslims burnt his churches on CNN
you still haven ans my question.. enlighten me ok?
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Originally posted by domonkassyu:
Dear Mrlimkopi
the bible itself does not contradict. but the doctrines do. go through the bible a million times and you notice not once did Christ says anything about himself being God. instead, one can only see Christ subjecting himself to Yodh Heh Wah Heh the father. even the Christ knows not the hour of armageddon. but he exclaimed that the father does. know if Christ is God, can he not know?? God who has no equal subject himself to someone else? No man can see God and yet live we all know this. we also know no man has seen God. how many saw the Christ again when he was walking among people?
does this not contradict the teachings in the bible? Yodh Heh Wah Heh the alpha and omega meant He has no beginning nor end. to say a mortal mary gave birth to God means not only was God originated by a mortal sinful woman. but also made that woman in a higher position than God. again this doctrine contradicts with the teachings is it not?
til now i have not found a single pastor,church leader,so on and so forth that can clearly explain trinity to me. nor can i find it in the bible.(maybe the pope can help on this)
as most already knows, mordern christiandom was founded by constantine the roman emperor. and again most also know he is a immoral pagan who used religion to unite his people. thus a certain religion after him modelled lots of pagans' beliefs into christainity. corrupting the pure worship of 1st century christians.
also an interesting point to note is that pagans( from ancient bablyon to mordern religions) tend to worship gods/goddesses in groups of 3s and 4s or even more.more interesting is that they claim the particular deity is 3 yet one godhead.
again let us see what a typical cath has at home. usually is an alter which the ceramic idol of mary,Christ(infant or otherwise) may include some "saints".and they usually pray to God? in front of such alter,even openly addressing to mary.reminds us of something forbidden in the Bible?
Rosaries were used.but again contradict Bible. Another major thing in the bible was to be of no part of this system as said by Christ.yet look at vatican. why even the 2 world war was sparked by diff sects of christiandom.
as for what bible i read..i got them from bookstores like Popular, Mph< kino and such..even city harvest,christians shops. only bible i cant finish is cath bible.
kindly advise me on all your diff point of views that i may have more research materials.
btw,i research many types of religions.
this is tough for my personally and I don't have an immediate answer.....but it will be of interest to me to investigate what you said.
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Originally posted by DailyFreeGames.com:
Just a comment, just because you're a nice person doesn't mean u will go heaven because according to christians, it would be like saying the lion won't hurt you because you have been a vegetarian all ur life. I believe in God, I just don't believe in going to church and sing some songs and get my ticket to heaven that way. For the record, I am not a Christian, but I believe in God.
You are right but being a Christian is not about going to church to sing some songs....
It's about having a relationship with God.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
true. But you don't need a big miracle to believe. What you need is a personal disaster, and have nowhere else to turn to, except for God. but are you willing to go through that?
my dad found God, when he, when struck with a face infection with no cure, was cured by God. My aunt and family found God, when she had cancer, and so many miracles occurred to them, small blessings of hope, when she's alive.
sometimes, some people need to be cut off from everything that is good, before they realise that they are indeed helpless.
your aunt - the Catholic one?
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
You are right but being a Christian is not about going to church to sing some songs....
It's about having a relationship with God.
If we look at the Catholic Mass, the congregation is actually chanting, not singing. :P
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Originally posted by snowfoxx:
If a religion is really so good and god LOVES US ALL, then why should the non-believers be comdemned to hell, if jesus really loves us? If your son is naughty, you will still love him at the end of the day, even when hes naughty, why not just let it flow by itself and i dun think that making threats would force people to believe out of their own beliefs, I think that perhaps show the world examples, would be a better way to do it.
So the point is believe me or die?
You are strong unbeliever....no amount of things christians says will convince you. I agree with you here.
As most of us here are converts, it means many of of ancestors are not christians. Some may be bad but I am sure that they will be some good man among them. Most have not seen people from the other end of the country - what more of seeing a Jew or christians.
Where do these people go? I certainly do not want to worship a God that send all my ancestors to hell regardless if they deserve it.
What happen to the great, loving, caring and forgiving God?
Sending only christians to heaven even when they don't deserve it?
I trust that you can find answers if you approach the right church with the right frame of mind. If answers is what you want, you may find it.
If arugement is what you are looking for? Let's not waste your time.
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
If we look at the Catholic Mass, the congregation is actually chanting, not singing. :P
what chanting? no leh...
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wow, this thread last till today.
Any good about the discussion?
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
what chanting? no leh...
no meh .. you mean you actually sing?
to me, more like chanting prayers with a melody.
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still no answer, it always happens when i press them for answers, its ok i am used to it... lol
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if man channel all their energy to science, cancer would already find a cure and we will land on mars long before time.
dun have to wait for miracles le, depend on ourselves bah.
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Originally posted by snowfoxx:
i am right to say if you believe in god, then all your bad things will go away? Ok if you are a true believer, why not we both head down to the cancer foundation, AND DO SOME GOOD DEEDS, and get some of the patients to believe in god, which they will since you say that " What you need is a personal disaster, and have nowhere else to turn to, except for God. but are you willing to go through that?" , then we observe their conditions, we go the the law firm to sign papers.
If they are cured, then i give you all my possesions, if you lose the other way around, hows that? We can do good deeds and spread the good will of god, the money you get you can donate to chruch if you want
still no brave volunteers to spread the will for god? still waiting... zzz, since you believe, come bah, dun worry, you are blessed by god's shield of invulnerability, nothing can harm you one. all christians live forever, they dun die, unlike us, lol
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Originally posted by snowfoxx:
still no brave volunteers to spread the will for god? still waiting... zzz, since you believe, come bah, dun worry, you are blessed by god's shield of invulnerability, nothing can harm you one. all christians live forever, they dun die, unlike us, lol
that is a good challenge and nobody, no christian is taking your challenge? God can cure or heal sicknesses but he can choose not to if it is not his will. Don't question me huh, me learnt this when I went church.
I have a friend who told me don't need go see dr when I fall sick, jesus can cure me. Like that, doctors/clinics/hospitals have no business liao.
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
what chanting? no leh...
Chant in the liturgy is the way to go!
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
no meh .. you mean you actually sing?
to me, more like chanting prayers with a melody.
No lah....singing lah...some hyms outside also can hear...protestant also got sing same song....etc.... Chinese New Year Mass even got hyms changedd to new year greetings....
When is the last time you go? Now even some prayers also use sing one....
Opening hyms, closing hyms, offer etc..how to chant? sing.
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as most already knows, mordern christiandom was founded by constantine the roman emperor. and again most also know he is a immoral pagan who used religion to unite his people. thus a certain religion after him modelled lots of pagans' beliefs into christainity. corrupting the pure worship of 1st century christians.
me protestant. probably dont belong in the "most already know" category.
As i know it, Constantine I didnt found modern Christiandom, it was during his reign that he called for the Council of Nicaea to consolidate a uniform Christian belief system. It was there that the Bible was canonized and to combat other false teachings out there. Within the whole situation, there were a lot of politics within (his motivation was partly to consolidate his power), and Christianity was almost taking off but a lot of people wanted to abuse this faith. It's not as if Constantine I himself was a pious believer of it too.
He couldnt have corrupted the 1st century Christians, cuz he lived in the 4th century. Time travel?
maybe my choice of words was wrong. constantine was the one responsible to "unite" christiandom through the council and consoilidated the bible.thus roman cath are born through this.mixture of pagan belief and Biblical truth.
of cuz constatine wasnt a pious believer of it.he was a thorough pagan til death.any notion that he was a cath was a political move.
what i meant by he corupting the 1st century pure worship was not he went back and corrupt.but twisted what the pure christians during the 1st century had preserve.the 1st century christians certainly did not believe in trinity as Christ did not teach them that way. nor was it introduce it yet.
hope this clear some misunderstanding
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still no answer, it always happens when i press them for answers, its ok i am used to it... lol..snowfoxx..wats your qn??? i tink i missed it but curious to know..
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dear snowfoxx
as for religion evolving with human race.i agree to a certain extent. however,the bible somehow teachings never outdate.
quote--If a religion is really so good and god LOVES US ALL, then why should the non-believers be comdemned to hell, if jesus really loves us? If your son is naughty, you will still love him at the end of the day, even when hes naughty, why not just let it flow by itself and i dun think that making threats would force people to believe out of their own beliefs, I think that perhaps show the world examples, would be a better way to do it.--end
true christiandom never condemn non-believers to hell for a few reasons.1st is cuz no hell exist. 2nd, during armageddon, many will be resurrected and given a chance to know Yodh Heh Wah Heh. and to accept His sovereign rule.only those that despite being shown the truth of what happen still decide to side with the slanderer will die a permanent death.(read not ending up in hell but permanent death)
not very sure about what you meant by naughty son part. if you meant the satan, then if he is given all the time in the world to wreck havoc means Yodh Heh Wah Heh has no justice...kindly clarify on the naughty son part.
i am right to say if you believe in god, then all your bad things will go away? Ok if you are a true believer, why not we both head down to the cancer foundation, AND DO SOME GOOD DEEDS, and get some of the patients to believe in god, which they will since you say that " What you need is a personal disaster, and have nowhere else to turn to, except for God. but are you willing to go through that?" , then we observe their conditions, we go the the law firm to sign papers.....read about Job.
the thing about believeing in God or not is do we understand what was the whole cause of it. why was the perfect and beautiful angel known as satan the devil?why people have to take sides?once you understand that, then you will answer your own qns. and Yodh Heh Wah Heh loves his subjects to ask qns about him.not just blind faith like so many exhibit now.
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what i meant by he corupting the 1st century pure worship was not he went back and corrupt.but twisted what the pure christians during the 1st century had preserve.the 1st century christians certainly did not believe in trinity as Christ did not teach them that way. nor was it introduce it yet.
hope this clear some misunderstanding
that would be what the forerunners of the modern Christian cult (Jehovah's Witnesses) would claim. The Arians.
Did the first Christians believe in the trinity? John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, certainly did. His gospel is replete with such teachings. Paul's parting message in 2 Cor 13.14: May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Cor 13.14)
Phil 2.6-11: Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death -- even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This incredible hymn is one of the OLDEST witnesses to what the very early church believed. Although it is used in Philippians (which was written around 60ad), Paul probably picked it up in his early years in the churches in which he worshipped--late 30'sAnd of course, the all famous Matt 28:19, Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (this is an explicit statement of three-in-one: it is ONE 'Name', but THREE agents! This linking of the Son with the divine names of God and Holy Spirit is quite a statement) However, if you have the JW version, it'll probably be plural ("names").
Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever"Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)The earliest Aramaic-speaking Christians refer to Jesus as "Lord" in the earliest extra-canonical Christian book, the Didache, which scholars agree was written no later than the late 100s. The word "Lord" (Greek Kyrios) was used by the Greeks to designate divinity. Justin Martyr, a second-century church father, baptized new believers in the name of the triune God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, acknowledging the equality of the three distinct persons of the Trinity
More from where all these came from, but i'd say that the early Christians subscribed to the idea of the Trinity.
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there are so many people who do all these 'negative' things, and they used christianity as a hiding place, and worse, use this 'human rights' thing as a shield