My "Christian" Experience
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
Ok, I got your point....but all those activities are not "works" per se....I had never been pressured to do any of this.....and my Church always ask for volunteers - never pressuring anyone, asking for tel no, follow up etc.....NEVER.
I don't hint that works are needed for salvation - the bible says so as you can read.
What do we believe about in Jesus and God? By faith, we believe and faith is dead without deeds and it is clear in the bible.
What is the significance of our batipsm and Jesus's ressurection?
I think we need to be careful as there are many Christians out there who think that they are saved as I explained before. No works is needed.....all sins forgiven (past, present and future), already righteous in front of God etc....sure go Heaven liao. No matter what.
Is that a fact? You read the bible and you know it is not true. Even if you disagree, you go find out why it seems like they contradict with those teaching. To me, there is no contradiction at all.
Jesus is teaching us to love God and our neigbhour - a commandment that all must follow if you believe in Him.
If one have faith and call himself a Christian but go and tell friends of another faith that they are worshiping Satan and will go to Hell.....I don't see how they can convert. I certainly don't see how they please God. Will they go to Heaven because they have faith?
Real evanglisation is about living a Christ-like life and following His teachings as closely as possible. To love each other as how He loved us. If people around us find that we have become "a better person" after embracing God, they will wonder and sharing our faith then will be more beneficial. Isn't this having faith + deeds?
A friend told me - only 1 person read the bible, 99 others read the Christians.
Sadly, it is true that many non-believers dislike Christians (I was one before) not because of Christianity, but because of behaviour of Christians (influenced by questionable doctroines)
haha could u be so helpful to post the quotes that says works are needed for salvation? i'm kind of rushing assignments now
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
haha could u be so helpful to post the quotes that says works are needed for salvation? i'm kind of rushing assignments now
I already did in my previous posts........
Read MT 5:13-16, MT 7:21-27 and LK 6:46-49 and then JAS 2:14-20
Then you may understand why and what Jesus said in MT 25:31-46.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
haha could u be so helpful to post the quotes that says works are needed for salvation? i'm kind of rushing assignments now
You need to analyse salvation using a framework called the ordo salutis. If not, both sides will be throwing verses and still hopelessly confused.http://www.theopedia.com/Ordo_salutis
In short, faith and works are needed, but at different stages.
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
I already did in my previous posts........
Read MT 5:13-16, MT 7:21-27 and LK 6:46-49 and then JAS 2:14-20
Then you may understand why and what Jesus said in MT 25:31-46.
LOL, this is going to be a really long post. but i most probably won't post here again until after my exams.
Regarding MT 5:13-16 - A little article that you may find interesting:
Luke 14:34-35 AMP Salt is good [an excellent thing], but if salt has lost its strength and has become saltless (insipid, flat), how shall its saltness be restored? (35) It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure heap; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him listen and consider and comprehend by hearing!
The Living Bible gives a modern slant to Jesus’ warning:
“What good is salt that has lost its saltiness? Flavorless salt is fit for nothing - not even for fertilizer. It is worthless and must be thrown out. Listen well if you would understand my meaning.”
It may sound unusual to read of salt losing its saltiness, yet salt has different grades of quality and purity. Even today, only the highest grade of salt reaches the dining table. Most poorer grades of salt are used in industrial processes.
In ancient times, salt was rarely pure. During Biblical times, most salt in Israel came from the Dead Sea and was often mixed with impurities, making the salt less salty. There were also conditions in which salt could be leached out or made less effective, through exposure to water, air, excessive sunlight or even other chemicals. The Victor Bible Background Commentary informs us:
“In Israel salt was mined from a great ledge of rock salt lying near the Dead Sea and evaporated from that Sea’s waters. The rock salt deteriorated in high temperatures, and moisture could leach the salt from the rock. Thus this important product could lose its saltiness - and become absolutely worthless.“
In a similar vein, “flakes of salt form on the rock shores of the Dead Sea at night. In the morning the sun rises. Under its heat the salt loses is saltiness. It blends with the shore and loses its distinctiveness.”
To illustrate this leaching process, Marvin Vincent quotes the following story:
“A merchant of Sidon, having farmed of the government the revenue from the importation of salt, brought over a great quantity from the marshes of Cyprus - enough, in fact, to supply the whole province for many years. This he had transferred to the mountains, to cheat the government out of some small percentage of duty. Sixty-five houses were rented and filled with salt. Such houses have merely earthen floors, and the salt next the ground was in a few years entirely spoiled. [L]arge quantities of it [were] literally thrown into the road to be trodden under foot of men and beasts. It was ‘good for nothing.”
Salt can lose its saltiness if it is adulterated with inferior substances. In the same way, your distinctiveness as a follower of Jesus can be watered down if you mix a biblical lifestyle with the world’s lifestyle.
We are indeed called to be salt and light of this world, but this doesn't have anything to do with salvation. It is the result of salvation, it is the result of experiecing the love of God and thus we are able to do good works - driven by love and purpose. it doesn't say that if we're not the salt and light of this world, we lose our salvation. But it is right, that we become useless, if we lose that light or salitiness. Having seen people who got seduced by the material world, they forget that they're only in this world temperorily, and they got sucked into it.
Regarding Matthew 7:21-27
Correct, not everyone who calls him Lord, will enter heaven. But do you know what the will of the Father is? the only time this phrase is explicitly explained is this:
John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."Not everyone who calls Jesus, "Lord", or attends church, attends cell group or sing christian songs, attends planetshakers concerts and yes, even doing christian work like evangelism etc, will be allowed into heaven. The only way into heaven is through Jesus, through looking to the Son and believing in Him. That's the only condition, that's the only salvation plan. The only name given unto men which we must be saved.
Regarding JAS 2:14-20:
Like I said before, works are not part of salvation. But works reflect the faith in the believer. A Christian who loves god, will do good works, but a person who does good work, may not love God, or may not even be a christian.
Once I attended FCBC, and I heard the speaker (it should be that pastor lawrance) gave a short testimony. once he joined this christian organization, and he fooled the people into thinking he's a christian (he got say why, but I forgot). He does evangelism, prays, attends bible studies etc. And he actually rose among their ranks, and became the head. What a surprise for everyone when one day, during an evangelism rally, he walked up to receive the Lord.
And I have a personal friend, when I was in Hope of God (and that's why that church is horrendous, they are so desperate for leaders that they'll let anyone to be leader) with him, he actually became a cell leader without actually believing in Christ. I mean, he confessed to me later that, he believe the existance, but he don't.. believe believe, you know? Sure you can cast out demons in Jesus' name, but you may not be a believer. You may do good works, but what drives the good works? Unless it is the love for God, which is born by the faith in Christ's FINISHED work, that drives the good works, then it is right. You won't lose your salvation if you choose not to rise as a cell leader etc. That's christ's finished work. But when you have really received and gain confidence in that finished work, good works will automatically come out of you, which is the faith, accompanied by action. What are the signs? I think these could be part of it.
When people are talking "christianese", you get excited, you have testimonies to share, you want to give glory to God. When people get on your nerves, and you lose your temper, you consciously remember that Christ asked us to love everyone, and you ask for forgiveness for it, and you try to remember not to do it again, but knowing that you will slowly change for the better in Christ. When there is an opportunity to preach Christ to a searching person, you take it, and when someone receives Christ, you feel so joyful inside.
In the end. I still say this. A christian who loves God, will go to church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love God.
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to chi bet: i sympathise wif ur situation n am sadden tat such churches like urs exist. however, u mentioned tat u have chosen to be stubborn abt 2cor6:14..i am not going to say tat u must die die follow but juz sth u may like to tink abt... as christians, we r suppose to yield to wad the bible has tot us n not decide using our own pt of view whether we wanna follow or not...when jesus when up to the mountain juz b4 he was crucified to pray, wad did he pray? he told God tat his heart was heavy n tat if it was possible, let tis cup pass him by. he was toking abt his cricifixion. yet jesus continued n said, but its not my will but urs, my Father... i understand the emotional attachment tat comes wif a r/s n tat its emotionally painful to break up wif someone u love. but when christians preach against being unequally yoked, we r looking into the future...after u r married to her, how r u going to bring up ur children? will she allow u to bring them to church every wk? as a christian, ur duty is to bring up ur children in the ways of the Lord... tink abt wad i have said...i noe some ppl will flame me for tis but i see a need to let u noe tat as christians, we shld not practise selective obedience(obey onli wadever doesnt hurt us)...God bless...
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hmm. good point. good point.
of course it would be good.. if she believes along with him. but i think the church is too quick to do the wrong things at the wrong time.
instead of building the new believer up, you're immediately running his life, tell him what's good and bad for him. pressuring him to make decision even if his heart isn't ready. good intentions (if any) but lousy execution.
by right, he should be allowed to be convicted by God to do the right thing, and he should do it in obedience, tempered by his own love for God.
otherwise, he grows frustrated, angry, feeling a great sense of loss, with no compensation etc.
but almost all the members of Hope of God were all forced to do the same thing, it's only naturally they pass the shit down to new members also. if all you have is a hammer, every problem will look like a nail. that's why the christians there, majority, quote things their leaders quote, but they aren't fully convinced, and those who can't take it, they leave.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
OL, this is going to be a really long post. but i most probably won't post here again until after my exams.
Regarding MT 5:13-16 - A little article that you may find interesting:
Luke 14:34-35 AMP Salt is good [an excellent thing], but if salt has lost its strength and has become saltless (insipid, flat), how shall its saltness be restored? (35) It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure heap; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him listen and consider and comprehend by hearing!
The Living Bible gives a modern slant to Jesus’ warning:
It may sound unusual to read of salt losing its saltiness, yet salt has different grades of quality and purity. Even today, only the highest grade of salt reaches the dining table. Most poorer grades of salt are used in industrial processes.
In ancient times, salt was rarely pure. During Biblical times, most salt in Israel came from the Dead Sea and was often mixed with impurities, making the salt less salty. There were also conditions in which salt could be leached out or made less effective, through exposure to water, air, excessive sunlight or even other chemicals. The Victor Bible Background Commentary informs us:
In a similar vein, “flakes of salt form on the rock shores of the Dead Sea at night. In the morning the sun rises. Under its heat the salt loses is saltiness. It blends with the shore and loses its distinctiveness.”
To illustrate this leaching process, Marvin Vincent quotes the following story:
Salt can lose its saltiness if it is adulterated with inferior substances. In the same way, your distinctiveness as a follower of Jesus can be watered down if you mix a biblical lifestyle with the world’s lifestyle.
We are indeed called to be salt and light of this world, but this doesn't have anything to do with salvation. It is the result of salvation, it is the result of experiecing the love of God and thus we are able to do good works - driven by love and purpose. it doesn't say that if we're not the salt and light of this world, we lose our salvation. But it is right, that we become useless, if we lose that light or salitiness. Having seen people who got seduced by the material world, they forget that they're only in this world temperorily, and they got sucked into it.
Regarding Matthew 7:21-27
Correct, not everyone who calls him Lord, will enter heaven. But do you know what the will of the Father is? the only time this phrase is explicitly explained is this:
John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."Not everyone who calls Jesus, "Lord", or attends church, attends cell group or sing christian songs, attends planetshakers concerts and yes, even doing christian work like evangelism etc, will be allowed into heaven. The only way into heaven is through Jesus, through looking to the Son and believing in Him. That's the only condition, that's the only salvation plan. The only name given unto men which we must be saved.
Regarding JAS 2:14-20:
Like I said before, works are not part of salvation. But works reflect the faith in the believer. A Christian who loves god, will do good works, but a person who does good work, may not love God, or may not even be a christian.
Once I attended FCBC, and I heard the speaker (it should be that pastor lawrance) gave a short testimony. once he joined this christian organization, and he fooled the people into thinking he's a christian (he got say why, but I forgot). He does evangelism, prays, attends bible studies etc. And he actually rose among their ranks, and became the head. What a surprise for everyone when one day, during an evangelism rally, he walked up to receive the Lord.
And I have a personal friend, when I was in Hope of God (and that's why that church is horrendous, they are so desperate for leaders that they'll let anyone to be leader) with him, he actually became a cell leader without actually believing in Christ. I mean, he confessed to me later that, he believe the existance, but he don't.. believe believe, you know? Sure you can cast out demons in Jesus' name, but you may not be a believer. You may do good works, but what drives the good works? Unless it is the love for God, which is born by the faith in Christ's FINISHED work, that drives the good works, then it is right. You won't lose your salvation if you choose not to rise as a cell leader etc. That's christ's finished work. But when you have really received and gain confidence in that finished work, good works will automatically come out of you, which is the faith, accompanied by action. What are the signs? I think these could be part of it.
When people are talking "christianese", you get excited, you have testimonies to share, you want to give glory to God. When people get on your nerves, and you lose your temper, you consciously remember that Christ asked us to love everyone, and you ask for forgiveness for it, and you try to remember not to do it again, but knowing that you will slowly change for the better in Christ. When there is an opportunity to preach Christ to a searching person, you take it, and when someone receives Christ, you feel so joyful inside.
In the end. I still say this. A christian who loves God, will go to church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love God.
I don't see how you have defended what you say from a bible point of view. Your opinion and mine does not matter. God's Word do! and that is all that matter. It is clearly stated in the bible. Unless you can explain otherwise, salvation is by faith alone and faith is dead without deeds.
JAS 2:14-20 (maybe you read read till verse 26) explained exactly above. It would be better if you can read the whole Letter by James and also find out possible reasons why he wrote what he did.
"A christian who loves God, will go to church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love God."
What exactly is a christian who does not love God? How do you define one? Why do they go to church if they have no faith? If they go, they must have faith. What kind of faith does such christians have when they do not love God? Will christian who do not love God be saved by God?
How do you define one who love God and one who don't?
As you have mentioned, some churches are dubious and their teachings is also dubious....That is why chibet is advised to "shop around" and understand what each church is teaching (and if that make common sense and logical to you) and the "agenda" (of any) of such churches and their leaders.
While if one wants to live with false hope, it's one choice. I prefer to listen and follow Jesus and I am sure that will never go wrong.
God Bless.
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
I don't see how you have defended what you say from a bible point of view. Your opinion and mine does not matter. God's Word do! and that is all that matter. It is clearly stated in the bible. Unless you can explain otherwise, salvation is by faith alone and faith is dead without deeds.
JAS 2:14-20 (maybe you read read till verse 26) explained exactly above. It would be better if you can read the whole Letter by James and also find out possible reasons why he wrote what he did.
"A christian who loves God, will go to church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love God."
What exactly is a christian who does not love God? How do you define one? Why do they go to church if they have no faith? If they go, they must have faith. What kind of faith does such christians have when they do not love God? Will christian who do not love God be saved by God?
How do you define one who love God and one who don't?
As you have mentioned, some churches are dubious and their teachings is also dubious....That is why chibet is advised to "shop around" and understand what each church is teaching (and if that make common sense and logical to you) and the "agenda" (of any) of such churches and their leaders.
While if one wants to live with false hope, it's one choice. I prefer to listen and follow Jesus and I am sure that will never go wrong.
God Bless.
if you don't understand that concept. then it just means you haven't experienced it before, that's all I can say abt it.
When you experience it, you'll know.
Anyway just for fun, i found one of my old hope of god pics!
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
if you don't understand that concept. then it just means you haven't experienced it before, that's all I can say abt it.
When you experience it, you'll know.
Well, that's a good way to escape when you cannot support what you are saying.
I already gave you all the context from the bible that supports the teaching. You did not dispute anyone and yet there is nothing to support (from the bible) what you says.
Teachings from the bible can always be defended by the bible and any misqoute and quoting out of context will always be exposed.
Truth will always be that - TRUTH.
Hmmmmmm.....who don't understand the concept? What concept huh?
God Bless You!
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
Well, that's a good way to escape when you cannot support what you are saying.
I already gave you all the context from the bible that supports the teaching. You did not dispute anyone and yet there is nothing to support (from the bible) what you says.
Teachings from the bible can always be defended by the bible and any misqoute and quoting out of context will always be exposed.
Truth will always be that - TRUTH.
Hmmmmmm.....who don't understand the concept? What concept huh?
God Bless You!
lol, maybe you should just re-read what i've said. I desputed the fact that "works are needed as the basis of salvation." and one moment you agree with what i said, and the next, demonize me as a heretic. hypocrite? as for your opinion about me "escaping", you'll notice that you're the only one who says that. =)
but just for the sake of argument - the reason why i don't bother explaining the concept of "a christian who loves God will goto church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love God", is because, you can't describe the taste of watermelon to someone who haven't tasted it before.
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oh, and ending off with a "God bless you" after branding me is so distasteful.
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
Truth will always be that - TRUTH.
not entirely true.... truth depends on where you are standing to perceive it. Unless one has a total picture "truth" is always bias depending on one's standpoint. -
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
Teachings from the bible can always be defended by the bible and any misqoute and quoting out of context will always be exposed.
biblical hermeneutics!
以�解�
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is there a difference between "salvation" and "faith"?
to my totally unlearned mind:
Salvation - a specific point in time that one receives Jesus as Lord and saviour.
Faith - a mindset of belief based on the Bible to enable one to carry on living the way one is suppose to live in congruent to scriptural teachings. (definitions my own, so if I am wrong, don't call me a heretic)
So, can one have faith without works - I don't think so....
But can one have salvation without works - Yes, because salvation is unconditional with the exception of one's desire to be saved.
... i am not even sure if i am even following the trend of argument....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
is there a difference between "salvation" and "faith"?
to my totally unlearned mind:
Salvation - a specific point in time that one receives Jesus as Lord and saviour.
Faith - a mindset of belief based on the Bible to enable one to carry on living the way one is suppose to live in congruent to scriptural teachings. (definitions my own, so if I am wrong, don't call me a heretic)
So, can one have faith without works - I don't think so....
But can one have salvation without works - Yes, because salvation is unconditional with the exception of one's desire to be saved.
... i am not even sure if i am even following the trend of argument....
that's what i'm saying, isn't it?
what is faith? abraham is called the man of faith. but was he always full of faith? abraham lied, he doubted, he was wishy washy in his faith. if works are to be the basis for salvation, abraham definitely don't cut it.
but he was called righteous, because he believed that God will provide a substitute, and he believed the lamb which God will provide will cover him and God honoured that one act of faith.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
that's what i'm saying, isn't it?
yes, as far as a I can understand. -
Cut and paste from: http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html
Question: "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"
Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. This question is a key difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the "Christian" cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works. -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
is there a difference between "salvation" and "faith"?
to my totally unlearned mind:
Salvation - a specific point in time that one receives Jesus as Lord and saviour.
Faith - a mindset of belief based on the Bible to enable one to carry on living the way one is suppose to live in congruent to scriptural teachings. (definitions my own, so if I am wrong, don't call me a heretic)
Not like that leh.
Salvation is a lifelong process, not a specific point in time. The specific point in time you are talking about should be faith (if you are arminian) or conversion (if you are calvinist).
Refer to the ordo salutis.
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
biblical hermeneutics!
以�解�
huh
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Not like that leh.
Salvation is a lifelong process, not a specific point in time. The specific point in time you are talking about should be faith (if you are arminian) or conversion (if you are calvinist).
Refer to the ordo salutis.
hmm. i can't say that salvation is a lifelong process. but i say that, being made holy is a life long process.
we are saved, definitely, but the process of refining our characters to be more like Jesus, is a life long process. we are always going to stumble at one point or another, and each experience makes us stronger, each time we are delivered from our troubles, from our fears, from our struggles, we grow a little bigger, our faith grow a little stronger, our willingness to obey without resisting grows softer.
our good works are like filthy rags, before and after believing in the finished work of the cross. God's love and willingness to die for our sins isn't dependant on our good works, that's the big point about christianity. It never was once about us. It was, and NEVER WILL BE about what we have done. since our salvation was never based on our good works to begin with, it will never be the part of the marking scheme of our salvation.
If I do good works, it will be because I love God, and not because I am afraid I will lose my salvation.
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....now before anyone, unashamely (like me) lift passages from the internet or start to insist that it is clearly stated in the Bible that blah blah blah..
....let's look at something totally unrelated:
Matt 5:20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.Does it mean that the reverse is also true:
Those who are RICH will not inherit the kingdom of God
Those are FULL will not be satisfied
Those are HAPPY now will be sad
and those who are POPULAR and LOVED by many will be rejected by the Son of Man?....so that we go all out to be poor, impoverished, sad and a total pain in the butt to others, just so that we are in sync with the Matthew passage???
...not necessarily so.
....reading scripture, we need to know the climate, tone, and audience to which the passages are addressed. Knowing some historical background of the audience also helps tremendously.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
hmm. i can't say that salvation is a lifelong process. but i say that, being made holy is a life long process.
Aiyoh, I told you guys upteem times liao, go study the ordo salutis.Being made holy is sanctification lah. It is part of salvation. Salvation does not happen at a specific point in time, but is a lifelong process.
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Aiyoh, I told you guys upteem times liao, go study the ordo salutis.Being made holy is sanctification lah. It is part of salvation. Salvation does not happen at a specific point in time, but is a lifelong process.
dowan~ dowan~ la la la~ =x
kidding, i read that already. maybe i didn't read it clearly, cuz i can't remember what it said. too busy with assignments sob
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Let me a moron in theology try to put some senses of work and faith, And because I'm a moron I hope this gets to the senses of you intelligent people LOL. And no it's not sarcasm.
As far as I understand no one could work his way up to heaven no matter what he did. Yes no matter what he has done. In short nothing nothing of the man itself renders him worthy to be given eternal life. Nothing. Even if you save the whole world population and do that thrice, spending every minutes for the benefit of other people. For nothing absolutely nothing compares to everlasting life. A thousand year life as the supreme ruler or King of the entire earth realm doesn't even compare to everlasting life which is the very best of life, the very crown of life.
On the contrary people who have faith or proclaim that they have faith could not also be given eternal life if their deeds do not proclaim their faith. If one proclaims that he is a believer in Christ yet he still commits grave sins continually he is teasing/mocking God. You think anyone could fool or tease God? His acts proclaim that he is not a believer and what is words when confronted with deeds? So your faith should transcend/be reflected into/upon your actions. For faith is a lie without deeds.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
If I do good works, it will be because I love God, and not because I am afraid I will lose my salvation.
You do good works 'cos you love God and you love your neighbors.
This principle is enshrined in the 10 commandments. Even Jews who don't have concept of salvation also know that.
That's why Jesus said everything summarised into love God and love neighbors. This is a Torah principle.