My "Christian" Experience
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Originally posted by Artemis`Entreri:
That is totally Hope of God, based in Orchard there @ Cuppage Plaza. They have been preaching this extreme form of nonsense since 1990s.
wow another one -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
lol, it's only true if you say it on your deathbed. otherwise it's just rubbish. empty bravado, sounds tough, but no substance.
Thank you but I'll be fine where my hot ass would like to be. -
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
The church is not even a representation of God. A church is a mere congregation of believers in Christ. God doesn't need a representative even on earth.
It's even irrelevent whether the Church site is holy. The only thing that can be holy is a man's heart for there dwell the Son of man. The heart of men(believers) is the temple of the Lord. God doesn't even dwell in the church though Jesus comes in the blessed host of the eucharist but those would be received by believers in mass/services.
I remember a Catholic pastor who wrote it's ironic to see many Catholics to be like chickens starving in a grain storage.
In Catholic, we believe that the Church is the mystical body of Christ, all its members being guided and directed by Christ the head, is set forth by St. Paul in various passages, more especially in Ephesians 4:4-13 (cf. John 15:5-8)
(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm)
It is not just a mere congregation of believers.Catholic also believe that Christ is truly present in Blessed Sacrament, in the Holy Eucharist, in tabernacle of the Churches around the world.
(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm)
Yes, it is true that many Catholics are like chickens in the grain storage, because they dont relize this truth, so they still feel spiritually empty. -
Originally posted by cApitaland:
i think the best is to read and understand. then you seek out the different schools of thought, in this case the varying churches, to see which one fits you best.
i have frens from chc and i think they are a wonderful bunch. they are dedicated yes but they dont talk abt religious matters all the time.
I think it is not just people in the church but the teachings too....I used to go chc too so I know....and I still have friends there......
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Originally posted by jacqn:
i strongly do not believe that by going into christianity means auto go to heaven! we must earn it! if we keep doing harm to others and cause great damage, then we can still go heaven? Like the case of Anthony who met his wife in church, years later hire a teenager to kill her. then he still can go heaven?
every one of us is responsible for the actions and decisions we make in life. even if you do not have a religion, and you do good deeds and be kind to all, you will go to hell??
i find it amusing when my friend told me if i do not go into christianity i will go direct to hell. i find it really hard to believe.
You are right and I agree fully with you. But not all Christians are like those you meet. Perhaps, at certain age, people are attracted to certain Churches which teaches the wrong things....
It is beyond doubts that Jesus is our saviour and I do hope you will at least explore the faith. Try reading MT 25 31:46 and JAS 2 14:20 and that may change your mind and answer your queries...
Unfortunately, there are churches that teach by misquoting (or quoting out of context) the bible.
Fortuantely, there are also churches that teaches the right thing and supported by the bible.
You need to know a little of the bible as different parts are written by different people at different time for different audience under different circumstances. That is why misquoting and quoting out of context is exploited by some to suite their own cause.
The truth as stated in the bible is always defensible as Word of God. Misquote and quoting out of context will always be exposed. Problem is - some people just will not accept that they have been taught the wrong things.
Christianity is all about faith, hope and love. Search and you will find....
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
You are right and I agree fully with you. But not all Christians are like those you meet. Perhaps, at certain age, people are attracted to certain Churches which teaches the wrong things....
It is beyond doubts that Jesus is our saviour and I do hope you will at least explore the faith. Try reading MT 25 31:46 and JAS 2 14:20 and that may change your mind and answer your queries...
Unfortunately, there are churches that teach by misquoting (or quoting out of context) the bible.
Fortuantely, there are also churches that teaches the right thing and supported by the bible.
You need to know a little of the bible as different parts are written by different people at different time for different audience under different circumstances. That is why misquoting and quoting out of context is exploited by some to suite their own cause.
The truth as stated in the bible is always defensible as Word of God. Misquote and quoting out of context will always be exposed. Problem is - some people just will not accept that they have been taught the wrong things.
Christianity is all about faith, hope and love. Search and you will find....
uh, just curious, so you agree that we have to work for entry to heaven?
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Originally posted by llednew86:
ok, i'm new here, i've been a christian since 2003 and here are my 2 cents worth....haha
Ok firstly in Matt 28:18-20, here it talks about Jesus giving the disciples the Great Comission, which is simply, to win the loss.
So if you only mix around with christians all day long, how are you suppose to share your faith to the none christians? Isn't that selfish and irresponsible? and isn't that disobeying the great commission? I have many non-christain friends and some of them are even my best buddies, is i were to only mix ard with christian wont that mean i will not have a chance to do my part in getting them saved? My ex-CGL used to think like that, that once we are save we should cut off contact with the non-christians, so as to not get influence, i find that this is wrong, but instead we should use our faith to influence them instead, and bring them to christ. I remember giving the cgl a piece of my mind and i left the cg soon after.
To ostracize ppl just because they are non-christians is simply wrong! and it goes against one of the 10 commandments. My advice is since u are already in a relationship, stay with it and if it;s possible bring your girl to christ, i'm sure God wouldn't want to see you end a relationship and cause suffering to both parties so just you can get a girlfriend in church.
And if your church members are intent on breaking you up, confront them and ask them what right do they have to break up a relationship based on the reason that your gf is a non-christian? and if they insist it's for your own good, ask them how can it be for your own good when they are trying to cause heartbreak and suffering.
It seems to me that these ppl are trying desperately to separated themselves from the secular world. If the secular world is so bad, then once you are saved and baptise, God should kill you on the spot so that you can spend the rest of eternity in the bliss of Heaven, but instead He gives us the Great comission, the holy spirit and the bible so that we as christians can be equiped to share the love of God to the rest of the people. It's not wrong to share about your walk with God with other fellow christian, sometimes it will even strenghten your faith, but if you do that and overdo it, sooner or later you will have a sense of inadequacy when talking to non-christians and lose touch with current affairs.
Larry Norman, the father of Christian rock music who influence most of the christian music you hear today, once said, " Why should the Devil have all the good music?".
There is no wrong in listening to secular or 'worldy' music.
All music is from God, create by God as a form of praise and worship, and though some genres like Trash Metal do tend to perverse this, the fact remains that music is from God. Do you know that the songs from Hillsong or CCC uses scores and progressions similar to the ones used in today's rock and pop music? So to say music is 'worldly' is like saying contemporary christian music is 'worldly' as well. But some may argue that it's the lyrics of the song that's 'worldy', but....
Just look at Psalms which is essentially a collection of hit songs from david's time, mostly about anger, fustration and regret some chapters with hardly then a mention of God. Isn't it similar to the popular songs we have today?
And what about The Songs of Solomon? A collection of songs all about the obsession with love and and the sensual, Do you know that back in those days it's considered X-rated stuff? Isn't it the same as most of our love ballards today?
And lastly the book of Lamentaions which is basically about the heartfelt expression of grief and sorrow. Just look and some of our best loved classics, eg. Eric Clapton's Tears in Heaven.
If secular music is worldy then why did God allow this 3 books in the bible? With Psalms being one the the largest books spanning 150 chapters. If your church members feel that secular music is 'worldy' they might as well just rip out these 3 books from the bible. I feel stongly about this cus i'm a musician in church and my favourite kinda music is rock and roll, and if someone come up to me and says the music i listen to is 'worldly', i will have this insatiable urge to stuff my Ibanez electric down his throat...lol
I believe that God's has a plan for everyone and that God's will use ou in His own special way, you can learn about God's plan for your life through consistant prayer, be dependent and sensitivity to the holy spirit for guidance and through trials and tribulations.
Very rarely does God's tell you his plan is the form of a prophetic word through someone else, and even if he does he will always use prophets, apostles, pastors, ppl like Billy Graham or Benny Hinn and even your local church pastor. So unless your church members are one or all of the above i seriously doubt their 'plan' is from God.
It seems to me that their 'God's Plan' is generated through the collection of personal data, personality test and surveys. Have you ever heard of the DISC test? it's use to determine a persons personality and aptitude. I know of some churches who ask their members the take this test and then recommend the ministy they feel they should be serving in, this to me is no different from genetic or racial profiling. God created you and has a unique plan for you and for you alone, be very weary of this 'God's plan' your members are pushing to you, it might distracted and prevent you from realising God's ture plan for your life.
Cheers and God bless=)
In response to llednew86
They share faith with non-believers by getting church members to bring in friends and family who are non-believers. Then they will judge the responsiveness of these visitors and members are told to stay away from those who are judged "non-responsive" and concentrate on converting the more responsive visitors.
What is freaky in this is that they actually have forms that they filled in after meeting the visitors which have ratings between 1-5 on the behavior of these visitors. if the total rating is over a certain point, visitors are judged responsive and below certain point - non responsive and those in between are "potential"
responsive - invite to service more
potential - invite more to group activities first then invite to service and reevaluate again
non-responsive - stay away
It reminds me of MLM recruitment drives everytime.
As for my girlfriend, if you had read dumbdumb!'s post, you would have known that the church have a very well known habit of breaking people up. The last thing I want to do is to bring her to this church.
I have no argument on their insistence for me to break up with a non-believer as they quote the Bible to me 2 Corinthians 6:14. My only response is to be stubborn and ignore them on this.
I had also ignored their request to stay away from my non-Christian friends as from my point of view, it seems like the only reason for this request is to cut me off from everyone except for my church friends.
If that were to happen, I believe I would be more easily influenced by them. I also think that controlling its members is one of the major goals of this church. You would not believe the amount of activity being planed for the church members every week. There are about 3-4 group activities every week and this is on top of the OT/NT/SOW classes. If you were to refuse to join the activities, they would constantly call you and bug you with questions such as – Why don’t you want to join? Are you not feeling well? Etc. As for the amount of control they wish to exert, I still remember someone (a CL) coming to me to tell me that GOD told her I am watching too much TV and I should reduce my TV time. What up with that???
To dumbdumb!
I remember 'do not be yoked with unbelievers' is Sam(TP CL, I think) and Jasmine(now a youth pastor) favorite saying while I was still in the youth segment (at least to me)
2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
......................sigh
Were you in the youth or adult segment when you were in HoG?
As for them planning my life, to me it is pretty obvious that their so called “GOD’s plan for me” is derived from all the information that were collect from me. The freaky part was that they told me they had meditated on me and GOD told them HIS plan for me. That is why I said they collected all sorts of my personal info then suddenly told me GOD has a plan for me.
It would not be so weird if they had said they, instead of GOD having a plan for me.
I guess I had always known in my heart that this church is a bit abnormal but I am unwilling to leave it as my best friend is in it. I have sort of become a reality check for my friend when the church ask him to do funny things i.e. quit his stable job to go plant a church in Dubai or Afghanistan – Sometimes I can no longer tell if they are joking or being serious due to their frequent outrageous requests.
Another thing that I would like to check with the people of this forum is this.
The church had once allowed a member to share his testimony on his (and I quote) “FANATICISM” to GOD/Christ to the whole church. As he is going on and on about how he is willing to lay his life on the line for GOD/Christ, all that was going through my mind was – please don’t let this guy strap explosives to himself and run into a mosque.
Do other churches encourage their members to be fanatics?
I am of the opinion that if people really have faith, there is no reason for them to be fanatics at all as they are secure in the knowledge of their salvation and there is no need for them to perform/declare their fanaticism.
No need to show a 3rd party/the world that they are fanatics of GOD/Christ.
Or am I wrong?
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chibet i whole heartedly agree with you. if there's an invisible man in the sky, he's obviously fucked up the world.
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Originally posted by ChiBet:
Another thing that I would like to check with the people of this forum is this.The church had once allowed a member to share his testimony on his (and I quote) “FANATICISM” to GOD/Christ to the whole church. As he is going on and on about how he is willing to lay his life on the line for GOD/Christ, all that was going through my mind was – please don’t let this guy strap explosives to himself and run into a mosque.
Do other churches encourage their members to be fanatics?
I am of the opinion that if people really have faith, there is no reason for them to be fanatics at all as they are secure in the knowledge of their salvation and there is no need for them to perform/declare their fanaticism.
No need to show a 3rd party/the world that they are fanatics of GOD/Christ.
Or am I wrong?
No. Most churches do not encourage their members to be fanatics. If the pastors of your church condone such "testimonies", I'd be very concern about their theology.
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Originally posted by ChiBet:
I remember 'do not be yoked with unbelievers' is Sam(TP CL, I think) and Jasmine(now a youth pastor) favorite saying while I was still in the youth segment (at least to me)2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
......................sigh
2 Corinthians 6:14 - another grossly misquoted verse. When taken alone, sure it does sound like we should keep to ourselves. But when seen in the light of other verses about going forward and making disciples of all nations, how can one make disciples if one is keep oneself away from non-believers?So the only conclusion is, what context was 2 Corinthians 6:14 talking about?
The young Corinth church was in a region where there exist a culture that is decadent. The young church was told not to emulate the characteristics and practices of this culture.
Your church is a really creepy church.... run!
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corinthians is in the old or new testament?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
uh, just curious, so you agree that we have to work for entry to heaven?
What we (you and I) says don't count. Only what the Scripture says counts. Not all Christians auto go Heaven (I know some churches teaches this - saved by faith alone) as per Jesus.
Read MT 7:21-27 (the True Disciple) and LK 6:46-49 and then JAS 2:14-20
Then you may understand why and what Jesus said in MT 25:31-46.
Basically, salvation by faith alone is true and correct. But what really is faith?
Remember that Jesus says: "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and will all your mind." and "You must love your neighbour as yourself". MT22:37-40.
I am a Christian and I listen to Jesus.....
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Originally posted by newcomer:
corinthians is in the old or new testament?
New Testament
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Originally posted by ChiBet:
In response to llednew86
They share faith with non-believers by getting church members to bring in friends and family who are non-believers. Then they will judge the responsiveness of these visitors and members are told to stay away from those who are judged "non-responsive" and concentrate on converting the more responsive visitors.
What is freaky in this is that they actually have forms that they filled in after meeting the visitors which have ratings between 1-5 on the behavior of these visitors. if the total rating is over a certain point, visitors are judged responsive and below certain point - non responsive and those in between are "potential"
responsive - invite to service more
potential - invite more to group activities first then invite to service and reevaluate again
non-responsive - stay away
It reminds me of MLM recruitment drives everytime.
As for my girlfriend, if you had read dumbdumb!'s post, you would have known that the church have a very well known habit of breaking people up. The last thing I want to do is to bring her to this church.
I have no argument on their insistence for me to break up with a non-believer as they quote the Bible to me 2 Corinthians 6:14. My only response is to be stubborn and ignore them on this.
I had also ignored their request to stay away from my non-Christian friends as from my point of view, it seems like the only reason for this request is to cut me off from everyone except for my church friends.
If that were to happen, I believe I would be more easily influenced by them. I also think that controlling its members is one of the major goals of this church. You would not believe the amount of activity being planed for the church members every week. There are about 3-4 group activities every week and this is on top of the OT/NT/SOW classes. If you were to refuse to join the activities, they would constantly call you and bug you with questions such as – Why don’t you want to join? Are you not feeling well? Etc. As for the amount of control they wish to exert, I still remember someone (a CL) coming to me to tell me that GOD told her I am watching too much TV and I should reduce my TV time. What up with that???
To dumbdumb!
I remember 'do not be yoked with unbelievers' is Sam(TP CL, I think) and Jasmine(now a youth pastor) favorite saying while I was still in the youth segment (at least to me)
2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
......................sigh
Were you in the youth or adult segment when you were in HoG?
As for them planning my life, to me it is pretty obvious that their so called “GOD’s plan for me” is derived from all the information that were collect from me. The freaky part was that they told me they had meditated on me and GOD told them HIS plan for me. That is why I said they collected all sorts of my personal info then suddenly told me GOD has a plan for me.
It would not be so weird if they had said they, instead of GOD having a plan for me.
I guess I had always known in my heart that this church is a bit abnormal but I am unwilling to leave it as my best friend is in it. I have sort of become a reality check for my friend when the church ask him to do funny things i.e. quit his stable job to go plant a church in Dubai or Afghanistan – Sometimes I can no longer tell if they are joking or being serious due to their frequent outrageous requests.
Another thing that I would like to check with the people of this forum is this.
The church had once allowed a member to share his testimony on his (and I quote) “FANATICISM” to GOD/Christ to the whole church. As he is going on and on about how he is willing to lay his life on the line for GOD/Christ, all that was going through my mind was – please don’t let this guy strap explosives to himself and run into a mosque.
Do other churches encourage their members to be fanatics?
I am of the opinion that if people really have faith, there is no reason for them to be fanatics at all as they are secure in the knowledge of their salvation and there is no need for them to perform/declare their fanaticism.
No need to show a 3rd party/the world that they are fanatics of GOD/Christ.
Or am I wrong?
i was in the youth. i was 16 when i joined them.
lol, yeah i know jasmine is now the youth pastor. what's God's plan for you.. is kinda between you and God. my suggestion is that you grow up well in the Lord first, fully understand the love God has for you. Dwell in it, soak everything in. Until your love tank is full, then are you able to love others, and then you will know what His will is for you.
but if you need a general direction... are your family saved? work on your jerusalem before going to the gentiles. the hardest part about being the first family member to receive salvation is, reaching out to family.
and about ur friend's testimony about willingness to lay down his life.. it sounds really like a peter. nothing wrong with that boast. but to me, it's only empty talk until he says that when someone is pointing a gun at his head, and threatening to shoot unless he denounce Christ.
i think the only thing to declare is God loves them la. and sometimes it isn't just words.. actions play a big part too. showing acts of kindness. acts of grace.. not easy, but they speak the loudest.
i really really advocate that all christians first dwell in God's grace and love first, before going rambo. all christians should do good works, all christians can do good works, but not all christians understand how much God loves them.
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
What we (you and I) says don't count. Only what the Scripture says counts. Not all Christians auto go Heaven (I know some churches teaches this - saved by faith alone) as per Jesus.
Read MT 7:21-27 (the True Disciple) and LK 6:46-49 and then JAS 2:14-20
Then you may understand why and what Jesus said in MT 25:31-46.
Basically, salvation by faith alone is true and correct. But what really is faith?
Remember that Jesus says: "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and will all your mind." and "You must love your neighbour as yourself". MT22:37-40.
I am a Christian and I listen to Jesus.....
faith is believing without seeing. believing that Christ took our sin and shame, believing that Christ started the good work in us, and it will endure until the end, believing that he who has the Son has life.
works... reflect the salvation in us. those who have really experienced God's love and favour, will automatically want to testify it through good works. But christians who work, may not be driven by the understanding of God's love, and instead, running on their own engine until it breaks down, and guilt and shame set in again.
you cannot give what you have not received, you can't give love if you don't even know what it feels like. sure, you can try, and we do try, we try and give, and give, even if it will kill us, and it actually might.
works driven by anything else except by God's love and your love for God, is hypocrisy, outward holiness and is worthless. God loves a cheerful giver.
if we are not saved by faith in Christ's finished work alone. we're saying that Christ's salvation plan isn't perfect. that something more must be added on it.
and nowhere in the bible it says that.
true, that not all who confess Christ are saved, and it's only because it boils down to the heart of the confessor.. and you will know by the fruits they produce.
i know this guy who joined hope of god, for the sake of doing so, he didn't understand why he did it, and he didn't bother to. and what was his fruit? he became a pervert, and is not sitting in jail for a sexual offence. whether or not he's actually a christian, i can't say. but he does evanglism with the caregroups, he does this he does that. but the motive of him doing all those aren't because he love God. it's worthless!
that's why, i say, understand that how hopeless we are without Christ. understand how much Christ sacrificed for us, understand the love behind his decision, accept that love, take it all in, and when you really really understand how much you are loved, you will automatically return that love, and in returning that love, produce a great amount of fruit, and good works.
and it all starts with, resting in God's unconditional love. and you can't do that if you're always worrying every 10 mins if you made the mark, of you somehow "lost your salvation"
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Originally posted by newcomer:
Thank you but I'll be fine where my hot ass would like to be.haha. again. tell me that again when you're on your death bed. then we'll know your mettle.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
faith is believing without seeing. believing that Christ took our sin and shame, believing that Christ started the good work in us, and it will endure until the end, believing that he who has the Son has life.
works... reflect the salvation in us. those who have really experienced God's love and favour, will automatically want to testify it through good works. But christians who work, may not be driven by the understanding of God's love, and instead, running on their own engine until it breaks down, and guilt and shame set in again.
you cannot give what you have not received, you can't give love if you don't even know what it feels like. sure, you can try, and we do try, we try and give, and give, even if it will kill us, and it actually might.
works driven by anything else except by God's love and your love for God, is hypocrisy, outward holiness and is worthless. God loves a cheerful giver.
if we are not saved by faith in Christ's finished work alone. we're saying that Christ's salvation plan isn't perfect. that something more must be added on it.
and nowhere in the bible it says that.
true, that not all who confess Christ are saved, and it's only because it boils down to the heart of the confessor.. and you will know by the fruits they produce.
i know this guy who joined hope of god, for the sake of doing so, he didn't understand why he did it, and he didn't bother to. and what was his fruit? he became a pervert, and is not sitting in jail for a sexual offence. whether or not he's actually a christian, i can't say. but he does evanglism with the caregroups, he does this he does that. but the motive of him doing all those aren't because he love God. it's worthless!
that's why, i say, understand that how hopeless we are without Christ. understand how much Christ sacrificed for us, understand the love behind his decision, accept that love, take it all in, and when you really really understand how much you are loved, you will automatically return that love, and in returning that love, produce a great amount of fruit, and good works.
and it all starts with, resting in God's unconditional love. and you can't do that if you're always worrying every 10 mins if you made the mark, of you somehow "lost your salvation"
I agree with you and you if read especially JAS 2:14-26, you get the full answer. So it is supported by Scripture. You basically says that true faith leads to god works. If there are no good works, the faith is dead as what James says. So, will one be saved if the faith is dead?
"if we are not saved by faith in Christ's finished work alone. we're saying that Christ's salvation plan isn't perfect. that something more must be added on it." is always quoted and I do agree. However, I feel that it is just to give people a wrong impression because it is clear that faith without works is dead. In fact, from what you wrote, you already agree with it.
To say one have faith (and even baptised) but not following Jesus's teaching (worst if one do bad things), how can one even think one is auto saved just because one is a Christian?
You are right that one cannot love unless they know and receive love. One cannot do good works if one has no love. People of any faith can do good works because they do love sincerely. I think it is wrong to think only Christians can love.....Many people from other faith is doing what Jesus is teaching us to do, while many Christians still refuse to accept and think it is not necessary even though it is in the Scripture!
If one wonder what Jesus says when he says to love and what is love that he is talking about, you can find it in MT 25:31-46.
Salavation by faith alone is correct and I agree but if faith has no works, it is dead!
I think the problem is when churches teaches that one is saved the mom you believe in Jesus and once you are saved, you will always be saved because it's God's promise. True but if you accept Jesus but never even try to follow His way, can you say you have faith? And if one listen to people (including teachers) with wrong teachings, do you think he can say he has faith?
True and correct teachings are supported by Scripture and will always be defensible by Scripture. In fact, all Jesus teachings make common sense right?
Finally, there is never a need to worry about "if you make the mark" if you have correct faith. You just do what Jesus says and you will not go wrong....everything is in the Scripture and do be aware of people who misquote them or qouting them out of context. This include some teachers of our faith.
God knows that we are sinners and will continue to sin. If we confess sincerely and change our way (after confession), God will forgive us our sins. I know this is also a sore point with some but it is in the Scripture. And if we try our best to follow the bible teachings (not misquoted ones), I think we will do fine.....not perfect but should be ok.
It is because of twisted teachings that we have Christians who go out and telling friends and even relatives of other faith that they will go to hell. Only Christians will go to Heaven regardless of what he do. And all others go to Hell even if they do all the good deeds including following all Jesus's teaching (without even realising it) !
For any converts (if you are the first in you household), why do you want to go to Heaven when all your relatives and friends are somewhere else?
Why do you want to believe in a bias, cruel and un-forgiving God? My God is not like that.......
What do you think?
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i think while there is a need to tell new believers that if they have real faith in Jesus, good fruits will develop in time to prove that faith, and good works will follow (problem is, it is not immediate, and some people take years to show those fruits, and not forgetting that sometimes christians enter the wilderness for years before they return)
i do not want to emphasise on works, because new believers may focus on the wrong thing (driven by fear of "not making the mark"). as i said above and many times.
a christian who loves God, will go to church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love God.
if you love God, good works will follow somehow, but you may keep trying to do good works, but it may not be because you love God.
and the result would be this:
the christian who loves God, never once doubt about his salvation, even if he falls, and will never fear to come back to the throne of grace for cleansing. knowing that his good works, while will be rewarded, does not increase the Father's love for him, thus even if he gets tired and not does the work, knows that it doesn't decrease the Father's love for him, and will not feel condemn. And when he is ready, he continues to love and be loved, and more fruits follow, in time.
while the christian who starts his christian life on the wrong foot, doesn't dwell in God's love, have no clear understanding of it, thus continues to try to produce good fruits and works by his own effort, to look for approval of his peers and the Father, will tire out, and finally grows frustrated thinking that he can never please his Father, throws tantrums and throws aside a sound mind, gives up and becomes an athiest and tries to debunk the existance of Jesus.
so it is definitely more correct for christians to focus on God's love. Abide in Him, and let Him abide in you, and you will produce many many fruits,
the phrase "the disciple whom Jesus loves" is found no where else in the bible except in John. John wrote about himself as "the disciple whom Jesus loves".
so as a christian, you can either be a peter or be a john. you can either boast of your love for Jesus, or boast of Jesus's love for you.
Peter may boast of his love, but it was John who had the revelation. =)
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
i think while there is a need to tell new believers that if they have real faith in Jesus, good fruits will develop in time to prove that faith, and good works will follow (problem is, it is not immediate, and some people take years to show those fruits, and not forgetting that sometimes christians enter the wilderness for years before they return)
i do not want to emphasise on works, because new believers may focus on the wrong thing (driven by fear of "not making the mark"). as i said above and many times.
a christian who loves God, will go to church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love God.
if you love God, good works will follow somehow, but you may keep trying to do good works, but it may not be because you love God.
and the result would be this:
the christian who loves God, never once doubt about his salvation, even if he falls, and will never fear to come back to the throne of grace for cleansing. knowing that his good works, while will be rewarded, does not increase the Father's love for him, thus even if he gets tired and not does the work, knows that it doesn't decrease the Father's love for him, and will not feel condemn. And when he is ready, he continues to love and be loved, and more fruits follow, in time.
while the christian who starts his christian life on the wrong foot, doesn't dwell in God's love, have no clear understanding of it, thus continues to try to produce good fruits and works by his own effort, to look for approval of his peers and the Father, will tire out, and finally grows frustrated thinking that he can never please his Father, throws tantrums and throws aside a sound mind, gives up and becomes an athiest and tries to debunk the existance of Jesus.
so it is definitely more correct for christians to focus on God's love. Abide in Him, and let Him abide in you, and you will produce many many fruits,
the phrase "the disciple whom Jesus loves" is found no where else in the bible except in John. John wrote about himself as "the disciple whom Jesus loves".
so as a christian, you can either be a peter or be a john. you can either boast of your love for Jesus, or boast of Jesus's love for you.
Peter may boast of his love, but it was John who had the revelation. =)
If you insist....it's ok because I do agree with you. As I said, you basically agree (from what you wrote) with what I said simply because it is in the bible.
I am just a little confused about your definition of works...it's just simply love your God and your neighbour as what Jesus had said and in MT 25:31-46. I think many people (even from other faith) are doing this....should not be too taxing on Christians. If I summarise, it means be compassionate and caring for each other.
Christianity is about faith, hope and love.
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
If you insist....it's ok because I do agree with you. As I said, you basically agree (from what you wrote) with what I said simply because it is in the bible.
I am just a little confused about your definition of works...it's just simply love your God and your neighbour as what Jesus had said and in MT 25:31-46. I think many people (even from other faith) are doing this....should not be too taxing on Christians. If I summarise, it means be compassionate and caring for each other.
Christianity is about faith, hope and love.
oh i was spreaking for the benefit of chebit. because i used to be from that church. they're very demanding about the things you do, you are always "encouraged" to follow their itinery, if you don't, you actually feel a little lousy about yourself. if you don't do street evangelism, you're not a good christian, if you don't join this or that ministry, you're not serving God fully, if you don't commit yourself to the church program, you get critisized. if you listen to secular music, it's a waste of time, if you mix around with non believers, you're straying from the path, blah blah
in a way i disagreed with what you said, because from what you said, you seem to hint that works are needed for salvation. and i was trying to explain that it is not so.
to be exact, the only will of the Father specifically said by Jesus is to believe in Him
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I'm not about to talk about death when there is so much life ahead. Thanks for you concern about my death though!Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
haha. again. tell me that again when you're on your death bed. then we'll know your mettle.
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Originally posted by newcomer:
I'm not about to talk about death when there is so much life ahead. Thanks for you concern about my death though!
lol. tts why i say, don't say such brave words yet.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
oh i was spreaking for the benefit of chebit. because i used to be from that church. they're very demanding about the things you do, you are always "encouraged" to follow their itinery, if you don't, you actually feel a little lousy about yourself. if you don't do street evangelism, you're not a good christian, if you don't join this or that ministry, you're not serving God fully, if you don't commit yourself to the church program, you get critisized. if you listen to secular music, it's a waste of time, if you mix around with non believers, you're straying from the path, blah blah
in a way i disagreed with what you said, because from what you said, you seem to hint that works are needed for salvation. and i was trying to explain that it is not so.
to be exact, the only will of the Father specifically said by Jesus is to believe in Him
Ok, I got your point....but all those activities are not "works" per se....I had never been pressured to do any of this.....and my Church always ask for volunteers - never pressuring anyone, asking for tel no, follow up etc.....NEVER.
I don't hint that works are needed for salvation - the bible says so as you can read.
What do we believe about in Jesus and God? By faith, we believe and faith is dead without deeds and it is clear in the bible.
What is the significance of our batipsm and Jesus's ressurection?
I think we need to be careful as there are many Christians out there who think that they are saved as I explained before. No works is needed.....all sins forgiven (past, present and future), already righteous in front of God etc....sure go Heaven liao. No matter what.
Is that a fact? You read the bible and you know it is not true. Even if you disagree, you go find out why it seems like they contradict with those teaching. To me, there is no contradiction at all.
Jesus is teaching us to love God and our neigbhour - a commandment that all must follow if you believe in Him.
If one have faith and call himself a Christian but go and tell friends of another faith that they are worshiping Satan and will go to Hell.....I don't see how they can convert. I certainly don't see how they please God. Will they go to Heaven because they have faith?
Real evanglisation is about living a Christ-like life and following His teachings as closely as possible. To love each other as how He loved us. If people around us find that we have become "a better person" after embracing God, they will wonder and sharing our faith then will be more beneficial. Isn't this having faith + deeds?
A friend told me - only 1 person read the bible, 99 others read the Christians.
Sadly, it is true that many non-believers dislike Christians (I was one before) not because of Christianity, but because of behaviour of Christians (influenced by questionable doctroines)
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cult!! cult!! time to change church!!
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
Real evanglisation is about living a Christ-like life and following His teachings as closely as possible. To love each other as how He loved us. If people around us find that we have become "a better person" after embracing God, they will wonder and sharing our faith then will be more beneficial. Isn't this having faith + deeds?
A friend told me - only 1 person read the bible, 99 others read the Christians.
Agree. People should be able to see the Christ in you first.
Talking about evangelism, some of you Christians may be interested in this - http://www.wayofthemaster.com/