Originally posted by 798:
none christians or true followers can answer dat? i'm so disappointed dat many claim to be strong believers. LoL!
hi, if god needs to be created, then he is not god liao?
satisfied?
Originally posted by 798:
none christians or true followers can answer dat? i'm so disappointed dat many claim to be strong believers. LoL!
look up the meaning of el shaddai
Icemoon: " How come you say Adam and Eve got incest leh?"
Sorry about that. My bad. Lazy to edit jus now. What i meant was between their children.
" The short answer, from the Jewish position, is that the commandments did not suddenly come at one shot."
How is this an answer at all? Let alone a short answer? So WHY did G-D issue this commandment about incest? Gene pool? He felt like it?
With Cain, GOD had warned him about his anger and premediated murder (upcoming), but he ignored. Clear enuf, that's sin.
With Lot's daughters, no such warning. The only sin i can attribute to them is that they failed to trust GOD enuf. They didnt trust GOD that He would continue their family line so they took things into their own hand. Technically, they did not sin.
Grant it to you, if they did sin, Origen says, ""Where, in all this transaction, can the crime of lust or of incest be proved? How can this be proved to be a vice when the fact was never repeated? I am afraid to speak my whole mind on the subject, lest the incest of these should appear more laudable than the chastity of multitudes." There is a distinction made here by Origen which is worthy of notice; a single bad act, though a sin, does not necessarily argue a vicious heart, as in order to be vicious a man must be habituated to sinful acts.
Hope this reasoning's not too preposterous for you, you asked a question. I'm just questioning your question.
Originally posted by 24/7:How is this an answer at all? Let alone a short answer? So WHY did G-D issue this commandment about incest? Gene pool? He felt like it?
It is a short answer because the issue is not so much about when a particular commandment was enacted, but whether the commandments, as you know it, were issued *first* at Sinai.
Using your reasoning, because you cannot find any mention of the incest law before Sinai, you gather that any kind of incest is not a sin before Sinai.
I find this preposterous, because neither can we find other commandments like "do not commit sexual immorality" or "do not murder" before Sinai. Are you saying it is permissible to fark around with other people's wife before the first mention of God issuing an injunction against adultery?
Furthermore you missed the point in your reply about Cain. The issue is not whether murder is a sin or not. It clearly is. It is laughable that you dismiss any sinful act on the part of Lot's daughter just because God did not warn them like He warned Cain.
Originally posted by 24/7:Icemoon: " How come you say Adam and Eve got incest leh?"
Sorry about that. My bad. Lazy to edit jus now. What i meant was between their children.
I wrote a reply about that in this thread. Page 1.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:look up the meaning of el shaddai
Trust me, he won't look it up. He's not here for the discussion. Focus on those who are really here for the discussion's sake.
Originally posted by 24/7:
With Lot's daughters, no such warning. The only sin i can attribute to them is that they failed to trust GOD enuf. They didnt trust GOD that He would continue their family line so they took things into their own hand. Technically, they did not sin.
Lot's daughters made their father drink wine before they lay with him. In fact Lot did not know when his daughters lay down or when they rose. Would Lot lay with his daughters if he is sober?
Originally posted by Creation1656:
Lot's daughters made their father drink wine before they lay with him. In fact Lot did not know when his daughters lay down or when they rose. Would Lot lay with his daughters if he is sober?
Talking about Lot, his is a case of 一错�错. He made a wrong choice when he abandoned his buddy Abraham to go to Sodom.
Originally posted by 24/7:
With Lot's daughters, no such warning. The only sin i can attribute to them is that they failed to trust GOD enuf. They didnt trust GOD that He would continue their family line so they took things into their own hand. Technically, they did not sin.
Something isn't right here.
Since when did God promise them He would continue their family line?
Originally posted by Icemoon: It is a short answer because the issue is not so much about when a particular commandment was enacted, but whether the commandments, as you know it, were issued *first* at Sinai.Using your reasoning, because you cannot find any mention of the incest law before Sinai, you gather that any kind of incest is not a sin before Sinai.
I find this preposterous, because neither can we find other commandments like "do not commit sexual immorality" or "do not murder" before Sinai. Are you saying it is permissible to fark around with other people's wife before the first mention of God issuing an injunction against adultery?
Furthermore you missed the point in your reply about Cain. The issue is not whether murder is a sin or not. It clearly is. It is laughable that you dismiss any sinful act on the part of Lot's daughter just because God did not warn them like He warned Cain.
The topic is about incest. I'd say that incest was allowed to happen until the time of Moses, for a very specific purpose that GOD allowed to carry on their family line. This act was only allowed at the early stages of history. Until Moses, i'd say that effects of sin have caused the gene pool to break down and bring about mutations, such that GOD puts a stop to it.
Is it morally wrong during the time of Lot? From our perspective, yes because we live in the time after GOD says no more. From the perspective of Lot's daughters then, it's not morally wrong if it's to carry on the family line since maybe they thought nobody else was around for them to reproduce with and because of the effects of having recently come from Zoar.
But neither is it totally right, because there was enough knowledge about good and evil then (effects of the fruit that Adam ate?) for them to guess that this was morally unacceptable. Is it a common thing? I don't know. Probably because other sources outside of bible would talk about Nimrod and his mother. Does some sort of law exist back then? Certainly! As Joseph declared to Potiphar in Genesis, it is a sin for him to sleep with her.
Technically, was it a sin for Lot's daughters? No, because they thought what they were doing was to repopulate the earth and not for the pleasure, and as Origen said, it was a one off incident and not meant to repeat again such that it becomes a consistent vice. Is it a sin now? Definitely! Because GOD has specifically disallowed it in Leviticus.
Originally posted by Icemoon:I wrote a reply about that in this thread. Page 1.
Are u talking about ur response to shinjichan? Where u stated so many laws? How is that an answer to the question ??
Originally posted by 24/7:Technically, was it a sin for Lot's daughters? No, because they thought what they were doing was to repopulate the earth and not for the pleasure, and as Origen said, it was a one off incident and not meant to repeat again such that it becomes a consistent vice. Is it a sin now? Definitely! Because GOD has specifically disallowed it in Leviticus.
My friend, 24/7, think harder. =)
I pose the following questions to you:
1. Imagine you are the daughter. You think only three of you left in the world .. or is it? If truly you have such virtuous motives [to repopulate the world], why don't you *openly* ask for Lot's cooperation?
2. The fact you have to take Lot by surprise means you already know Lot is reluctant to cooperate with you. And why should he, if it is a noble task after all? Does it mean Lot is committed to some kind of incest commandment, issued long before Moses? *hint hint*
3. On the other hand, what makes you think you are the only three left in the world? If you know the righteousness of your relative Abraham, is it not possible God could have saved him and Sarah as well?
Of course lah, Lot 也�是什么好东西. He started to turn bad after parting from the righteous Abraham and moved to Sodom. Kaoz, of all places, he chose Sodom. Granted, he is still good or else the angels won't save him. However Lot is not that holy after all and as the Jewish commentator Rashi pointed out, "Lot knew what had happened the first night with his first daughter and did nothing to avoid the situation with the second daughter."
Cheers.
Creation: "Lot's daughters made their father drink wine before they lay with him. In fact Lot did not know when his daughters lay down or when they rose. Would Lot lay with his daughters if he is sober?"
If i remember correctly, Lot was considered righteous, thus he was spared the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Why would he, on the run, have taken so much wine with him (enough to get dead drunk. Twice). Why would he drink (so much)? Sober or not, fact is he's conscious enough to have his seed emerge during copulation. Twice.
Originally posted by 24/7:Creation: "Lot's daughters made their father drink wine before they lay with him. In fact Lot did not know when his daughters lay down or when they rose. Would Lot lay with his daughters if he is sober?"
If i remember correctly, Lot was considered righteous, thus he was spared the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Why would he, on the run, have taken so much wine with him (enough to get dead drunk. Twice). Why would he drink (so much)? Sober or not, fact is he's conscious enough to have his seed emerge during copulation. Twice.
The argument is quite subtle and without Tradition, it is hard to understand why Lot is "not so good after all". (We all know Lot was considered righteous by God)
Heehee, I realized you replied the above only after I finished my previous reply. Seems that we can look at the drunken sex incident from two diametrically opposite angles. Cool.
Originally posted by 24/7:Sober or not, fact is he's conscious enough to have his seed emerge during copulation. Twice.
Don't so chim leh. Biologically just semen only mah. But I not tried ONS before, in drunken state no less. So I dunno how is it like, sorry. Heehee.
Icemoon: Is there some kind of a gag order on you and your beliefs in this forum? If this is a respectable discussion, why the need to hint something? You're quite a slippery fish, so elusive about your answers. *amused*
I wouldnt want to infer whether the daughters were super horny at that time and wanted their father to impregnate them. Or why Lot chose to stay at Sodom. Bible is silent on this matter, i wouldnt want to comment.
You challenged readers to think why it is considered that the daughters sinned... I felt that there was no sin that was emphasized by Moses as he wrote it (I assume your position is somewhere in your replies to me, so we've to read between the lines to get it). But i recognize that there was some sort of law back then (on their hearts? officially?), but GOD certainly didnt forbid the act until Moses came about.
So now, i'm sure you're waiting to tell us where you think the incest commandment came about, long before the time of Moses?
Originally posted by 24/7:Or why Lot chose to stay at Sodom. Bible is silent on this matter, i wouldnt want to comment.
That said, without Tradition, it is hard to make sense of many things in the Bible.
Cheers.
Icemoon: Appreciate your humour. But i'm still curious about how Tradition would answer a skeptic about incest and the children of Adam and Eve.
Originally posted by 24/7:You challenged readers to think why it is considered that the daughters sinned... I felt that there was no sin that was emphasized by Moses as he wrote it (I assume your position is somewhere in your replies to me, so we've to read between the lines to get it). But i recognize that there was some sort of law back then (on their hearts? officially?), but GOD certainly didnt forbid the act until Moses came about.
So now, i'm sure you're waiting to tell us where you think the incest commandment came about, long before the time of Moses?
I don't get you as your position is inconsistent as well.
For example, you insist God only forbid an act until Moses came about. Pretty well covers most of the acts, as most of the prohibitions were only explicitly stated at Sinai.
In that case, does God forbid adultery or not, during Joseph's time?
Originally posted by 24/7:Icemoon: Is there some kind of a gag order on you and your beliefs in this forum? If this is a respectable discussion, why the need to hint something? You're quite a slippery fish, so elusive about your answers. *amused*
You have disappointed me by not considering the questions I put forth.
I did pose the challenge to you - if what they did was considered necessary, why did they not enlist Lot's help openly?
Originally posted by 24/7:
Sober or not, fact is he's conscious enough to have his seed emerge during copulation. Twice.
There is another incident in genesis that mirrors this incestuous relationship between Lot and his daughters. The case of Judah and his daughter-in-law, Tamar. In both cases, both Lot and Judah never "Lay" with their daughters or daughter-in-law again. Did they repented from their errors?
Icemoon: Hmm.. i did acknowledge the existence of some kind of law that the pre-Moses characters followed. Whether it's a commandment and specifically outlawed and disallowed under all kinds of situations, from the biblical perspective, its not. Could it be the effects of the fruit that Adam ate? Maybe, what do you think?
As to why Lot was not asked openly, 2 Peter (Bible) testifies that Lot is a righteous man, so for him not to cooperate isnt a surprise.
So now, from Judaistic perspective, could you tell me more about whether G-D practised double standards regarding incest? Do you have commandments that predate incest before Moses? This has been asked since pg 1.
Originally posted by 24/7:As to why Lot was not asked openly, 2 Peter (Bible) testifies that Lot is a righteous man, so for him not to cooperate isnt a surprise.
Very funny. Lot righteous means cannot cooperate? Don't cooperate then expect God to create Adam and Eve again ah?
About Lot being a righteous man, many readers will beg to differ. The fact that Lot offered his daughters to save the strangers in Sodom offend female sensibilities you know?
Lot did make a strange decision, to leave Abraham and live among the Sodomites. Why would he leave the righteous Abraham and live among the sinful people of Sodom is a question.
Perhaps we understand righteousness differently from what the biblical authors intended?
Originally posted by 24/7:Icemoon: Hmm.. i did acknowledge the existence of some kind of law that the pre-Moses characters followed. Whether it's a commandment and specifically outlawed and disallowed under all kinds of situations, from the biblical perspective, its not. Could it be the effects of the fruit that Adam ate? Maybe, what do you think?
Hmm, to answer this, I have to study more thoroughly why commandments given openly at Sinai leh. Haha, maybe you'd like to tell me why.
But suffice to say, isn't it the case it's better that the law not be given at Sinai? 'cos like you said, commandment came and specifically outlawed and disallowed under all kinds of situation, kaoz. Suddenly become stricter. No room for wriggling. Jialat leh.
Just like why it's better that gospel not be given. Give liao no excuse. Don't give at least some wriggling room, like if you're from other religions.
Originally posted by 24/7:So now, from Judaistic perspective, could you tell me more about whether G-D practised double standards regarding incest? Do you have commandments that predate incest before Moses? This has been asked since pg 1.
Honestly, I'm not sure whether God practised double standards regarding incest. We are like operating on two levels here, commandments and sins. Like you said, no such commandment before Moses. But no commandment doesn't mean no sin because sin means missing the target/expectation of the person. Sin doesn't mean doing something evil, as commonly [mis]understood.
Incest falls under the general category of sexual immorality. So you'd have sins like adultery and homosexuality inside also.
The Judaistic perspective is six commandments were given to Adam, one more to Noah, and the seven "social" commandments form the bedrock of civilization. Creation1656 talked about this in this thread.
So sexual immorality happens to be one of the seven. Granted, the Oral Tradition did not specifically point out incest, but it is included by at least Rambam.
In my view, the beauty of Judaistic perspective is that sin and mitzvah are separated by a thin line. Nothing is intrinsically evil; even Satan is not considered evil like how he is seen in Christian circles.
For the case of Lot, while God did not specifically say the act was a sin, the result pretty well says it all. It is like the saying a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Like the offspring of Esau, Amalek.