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I've read and compared the end chapters of the four gospels according Matthew, Mark, John and Luke and found no inconsistency.
Magdalene was the first person to witness the resurrection.
First thing I need to say...
I hate the new GUI for sgforum :(
Lets look at the 4 books again shall we and see wat happened on jesus resurrection day
Matthew 28
Summary:
1. 2 Mary go
2. Angel suddenly appeared, cause earthquake, talked to girls
3. Guards present
4. Suddenly jesus appeared and talk to girls. Girls tell disciples
5. Disciples all go to mountain and listen to jesus then
Mark 16
Summary:
1. 2 Mary and Salome go
2. Angel appeared, no earthquake and no guard. Angel talked to them
3. Suddenly say jesus appeared and drive out 7 demons from Mary.
4. Girls did not informed anyone
5. Mary told everyone and no one believed her
Luke 24
Summary:
1. 2 Mary and Joanna
2. Met 2 angles instead of 1. No guards.
3. Told disciples, No one believed.
4. Peter go and take a look
5. Jesus appeared to 2 guys first
John 20
Summary:
1. Mary Magdalene went alone
2. Cannot find jesus
3. Told disciples, all believed her
4. Peter come in first, found nothing then go back
5. Jesus then appeared to Mary Magdalene
Now come the question, who went together with mary to the tomb ? Wat happened ? In Matthew jesus appeared to both Mary. In Mark, Mary got possessed by devils and Jesus met her then. In John Mary was crying out tomb then see jesus. In Luke jesus appeared to 2 guys. SO wat really happened ? The story all contradict one another
I think, if the stories really contradict, then the person whom they meet will not be Jesus liao.
If the story contradicts. Maybe there isn't jesus at all.
Originally posted by stupidissmart:First thing I need to say...
I hate the new GUI for sgforum :(
Lets look at the 4 books again shall we and see wat happened on jesus resurrection day
Matthew 28
Summary:
1. 2 Mary go
2. Angel suddenly appeared, cause earthquake, talked to girls (Are you sure the angel caused an earthquake?)
3. Guards present
4. Suddenly jesus appeared and talk to girls. Girls tell disciples
5. Disciples all go to mountain and listen to jesus then
Mark 16
Summary:
1. 2 Mary and Salome go
2. Angel appeared, no earthquake and no guard. Angel talked to them (No mention of earthquake does not mean no earthquake. Similarly for guards.)
3. Suddenly say jesus appeared and drive out 7 demons from Mary.
4. Girls did not informed anyone(Your chronological order of this event is wrong. This should be above 3.)
5. Mary told everyone and no one believed her ( This confirmed Mag was first witness)
Luke 24
Summary:
1. 2 Mary and Joanna
2. Met 2 angles instead of 1. No guards. .( Not mentioned in the story does not mean there was no guard. The writer might have thought that it was irrelevant or that the witness had not mention it. Many possibilities)
3. Told disciples, No one believed..(this implies that Mag was first witness)
4. Peter go and take a look
5. Jesus appeared to 2 guys first(wrong assumption)
John 20
Summary:
1. Mary Magdalene went alone.( How do you know she went alone? It's not mentioned in the book.)
.
2. Cannot find jesus
3. Told disciples, all believed her(Mag told them what?)
4. Peter come in first, found nothing then go back
5. Jesus then appeared to Mary Magdalene
Now come the question, who went together with mary to the tomb ? Wat happened ? In Matthew jesus appeared to both Mary. In Mark, Mary got possessed by devils and Jesus met her then. In John Mary was crying out tomb then see jesus. In Luke jesus appeared to 2 guys. SO wat really happened ? The story all contradict one another
I’m not used to this this new format. Still exploring where and how to use the buttons. So, I use blue colour and bold for my reply.
You know what the problems are? Your theory of contradiction is base on speculation. There’s the convenience of the internet or books for your reference, yet you can get the chronological order of events wrong. You jump to wrong conclusion.
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
First thing I need to say...
I hate the new GUI for sgforum :(
Lets look at the 4 books again shall we and see wat happened on jesus resurrection day
Matthew 28
Summary:
1. 2 Mary go
2. Angel suddenly appeared, cause earthquake, talked to girls
3. Guards present
4. Suddenly jesus appeared and talk to girls. Girls tell disciples
5. Disciples all go to mountain and listen to jesus then
Mark 16
Summary:
1. 2 Mary and Salome go
2. Angel appeared, no earthquake and no guard. Angel talked to them
3. Suddenly say jesus appeared and drive out 7 demons from Mary.
4. Girls did not informed anyone
5. Mary told everyone and no one believed her
Luke 24
Summary:
1. 2 Mary and Joanna
2. Met 2 angles instead of 1. No guards.
3. Told disciples, No one believed.
4. Peter go and take a look
5. Jesus appeared to 2 guys first
John 20
Summary:
1. Mary Magdalene went alone
2. Cannot find jesus
3. Told disciples, all believed her
4. Peter come in first, found nothing then go back
5. Jesus then appeared to Mary Magdalene
Now come the question, who went together with mary to the tomb ? Wat happened ? In Matthew jesus appeared to both Mary. In Mark, Mary got possessed by devils and Jesus met her then. In John Mary was crying out tomb then see jesus. In Luke jesus appeared to 2 guys. SO wat really happened ? The story all contradict one another
Mark 16
Summary:
1. 2 Mary and Salome go
2. Angel appeared, no earthquake and no guard. Angel talked to them (No mention of earthquake does not mean no earthquake. Similarly for guards.)
3. Suddenly say jesus appeared and drive out 7 demons from Mary.
4. Girls did not informed anyone(Your chronological order of this event is wrong. This should be above 3.)
5. Mary told everyone and no one believed her ( This confirmed Mag was first witness)
Luke 24
Summary:
1. 2 Mary and Joanna
2. Met 2 angles instead of 1. No guards. .( Not mentioned in the story does not mean there was no guard. The writer might have thought that it was irrelevant or that the witness had not mention it. Many possibilities)
3. Told disciples, No one believed..(this implies that Mag was first witness)
4. Peter go and take a look
5. Jesus appeared to 2 guys first(wrong assumption)
John 20
Summary:
1. Mary Magdalene went alone.( How do you know she went alone? It's not mentioned in the book.)
2. Cannot find jesus
3. Told disciples, all believed her(Mag told them what?)
4. Peter come in first, found nothing then go back
5. Jesus then appeared to Mary Magdalene
I’m not used to this this new format. Still exploring where and how to use the buttons. So, I use blue colour for my reply.
You know what the problems are? Your theory of contradiction is base on speculation. There’s the convenience of the internet or books for your reference, yet you can get the chronological order of events wrong. You jump to wrong conclusion.
You know what the problems are? Your theory of contradiction is base on speculation. There’s the convenience of the internet or books for your reference, yet you can get the chronological order of events wrong. You jump to wrong conclusion.
Chronological order ? I already clearly wrote "summary" at the tops of the chapter and I don't know tat summary need to follow chronological order. I just have to list down the points which I think is relevant to my argument and I did tat. From your reply, it is clear tat u have no answers to many of the points.
(No mention of earthquake does not mean no earthquake. Similarly for guards.)
If u felt tat absence is not equal to contradictions, for the benefit of the doubt I agree. But the number of angels seen r wrong in each book.
( This confirmed Mag was first witness)
Matthew states 3 witnesses instead of Mary alone, which u clearly left out in your reply. Luke 24 states the women see the angel and not Jesus. And then the 2 guys saw jesus tat same day, before telling to disciples which jesus then appeared. From tis account, the 2 guys r the first witnesses. For John account, it is clear tat Mary was alone. She go to tomb, saw the stone moved and told the people and all these actions no one is mentioned other than her. If u insist she is not alone, then okie lor. The other still contradict how many went to tomb in the first place anyway.
Let me tell u la... it is futile to argue over tis part of the scripture because it is a part which the catholic church had admitted they have no good chronological order or logic for it. Tat is why I mentioned tis. If u can solve all the loopholes, then u can try to apply to be a bible scholar or someone greater because they officially give up on tis.
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Chronological order ? I already clearly wrote "summary" at the tops of the chapter and I don't know tat summary need to follow chronological order. I just have to list down the points which I think is relevant to my argument and I did tat. From your reply, it is clear tat u have no answers to many of the points.
(No mention of earthquake does not mean no earthquake. Similarly for guards.)
If u felt tat absence is not equal to contradictions, for the benefit of the doubt I agree. But the number of angels seen r wrong in each book.
( This confirmed Mag was first witness)
Matthew states 3 witnesses instead of Mary alone, which u clearly left out in your reply. Luke 24 states the women see the angel and not Jesus. And then the 2 guys saw jesus tat same day, before telling to disciples which jesus then appeared. From tis account, the 2 guys r the first witnesses. For John account, it is clear tat Mary was alone. She go to tomb, saw the stone moved and told the people and all these actions no one is mentioned other than her. If u insist she is not alone, then okie lor. The other still contradict how many went to tomb in the first place anyway.
Let me tell u la... it is futile to argue over tis part of the scripture because it is a part which the catholic church had admitted they have no good chronological order or logic for it. Tat is why I mentioned tis. If u can solve all the loopholes, then u can try to apply to be a bible scholar or someone greater because they officially give up on tis.
I tell you lah, you insulted me, you dumb schmuck. My comments are clear. If I leave no comment means it indicates that the point is correct as in the book.
I'm going to take half day off this morning. I 'm going to post the relevant verses of the four gospels with reasons later. You are the one who's trying to make the stories look silly, probably pulled out from some other like minded contributors' comments but you're not like them. They at least read through and then question the incosistencies. If they are wrong, so are you because you did not verify their questions and jumped to conclude that their speculation was without a doubt.
Notes
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
The authors were a tax-collector, a missionary, a Greek doctor and a fisherman. Each author had the liberty to omit details according to his purpose for writing the book. As they came from different background, the styles also differ.
The books were written at different times at different places and to present to different audience.- the Jews, the Romans, the Greeks and the Gentile Christians. The books also portray Jesus differently - as Messiah, servant of God, Savior of man and son of God. If all the books are in perfect agreement, anti-Christians will then allege conspiracy in the writers. The sole purpose is to discredit the gospels.
The Four Gospels are about the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ
After the death of Jesus, the stories were passed on through spoken words and it’s reasonable to expect some loss in accuracies. No one attempted to abrogate those verses to ‘improve upon’ the stories. The stories were written based on whatever the sources could mentally recalled - to the best of their abilities.
After the books were completed, the numbers of words in each book were not the same. Another inconsistency?
There is little disagreement between their accounts of the arrest, trial, death and resurrection of Jesus, and his commission to preach the Gospel to the world.
To the Christians, these issues of ‘inconsistencies’ are unimportant as compared with the important message of Jesus Christ. Only the anti-Christians with axe to grind will use every means to discredit the Gospels.
My summaries of the end chapters of the four gospels – some with comments.
Matthew
Mark
Luke
Between these two order of events – Luke did not address the issue of who was first to see Jesus. Jesus might have appeared to Mag and ‘them’..(not provable)
John
Matthew and John were two of the twelve apostles with Jesus until his death.
Mark and Luke were apostles of apostles. The books were written at approximately 30 years after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. After such a period of time, if the eye-witnesses failed the memory test, it’s forgivable.
One point that’s certain is Magdalene was the first to see Jesus after the resurrection. Only the book of Luke did not address this issue. There’s no provable contradiction for this point.
Some verses are specific in certain details and others are not.
If the points are mentioned in one book but not in another, it’s ambiguous and open to speculation.
Any inconsistency that cannot be reconciled is incidentally insignificant.
The few events that are consistent in all four books are the most important to the Christians.
John 21:24-25 - Now it is this same disciple who is hereby giving his testimony to these things and has written them down. We know that his witness is reliable. Of course, there are many other things which Jesus did, and I suppose that if each one were written down in detail, there would not be room in the whole world for all the books that would have to be written.
A bit of exaggeration here but it makes sense.
I’ve decided not to post the verses of the four gospels here as it’s available on the internet. I used the NIV for verification.
Wow wow wow... seems tat someone is pissed off here. Actually I have half a mind to actually not write anything till your half day leave is over then start posting replies but I guess tat is too cruel :p
After the death of Jesus, the stories were passed on through spoken words and it’s reasonable to expect some loss in accuracies. No one attempted to abrogate those verses to ‘improve upon’ the stories. The stories were written based on whatever the sources could mentally recalled - to the best of their abilities
After saying tat "I jumped into their speculation without a doubt", u concede tat there is really an inconsistency and contradiction between the different books and agree with my speculation . U just blame it all on the fact tat details r loss and so r accuracies after time. I don't know about u but I thought these books r probably written when the people r still alive. And these people r "spreading" the word meanwhile thus should be familiar with wat they witness. Matthew is speculated to be written about 40 while jesus is speculated to die about 33. Luke is about 80, john possibly 60 while mark is possibly earliest among the accounts. It is likely the authors still survive when writing them.
Then in tat case how do u know the other part of the bible is intact. U admit tat some books lack certain points from another book and there is no way to verify its authencity. In tat case a lot of portion u read can be wrong If u wanna go to detail, u will realise more inconsistency between the books. If the books contradicts one another, and u r expected to follow blindly, then wat conclusions can u derived out ? Nothing. It becomes your own religion where u believe wat u wanna believed.
U can say the "anti-christian" just wanna grind their axe with christian but in actual fact they raised valid points. I think tat trivialising plus slandering people who asked these questions is really nothing more than cover up.
You cruel? I'm 'scared'.
A speculation is a speculation.
Ambiguousness is Ambiguousness.
An inconsistency can be a contradiction.
Your idea of contradiction refers to all three of the above with the addtion of your own wrong assumptions and reasonings.
That's why you are a dumb schmuck.
If you, a modern man, can make such errors even with the convenience of the books and the internet at your disposal, frankly those witnesses that lived thousands of years ago were better than you. They had to commit to memory many events that took place when writing materials were not available. After a few decades, they were prone to miss out some details or mix up the chronological order of the events when they had to recall from memory. The authors, all came from different walks of life, were also free to include or ommit details to suit a different audience.These are reasonable assumptions.
When I have my doubts, I'll believe the educated guesses or opinions of people with good analytical minds, not those coming from some dumb schmucks.
I appreciate that the words were not altered for 'authenticity' after they were officially finalized as holy scriptures.
Your idea of contradiction refers to all three of the above with the addtion of your own wrong assumptions and reasonings
Then tell me the answer for below
1. The number of women tat went in the morning (matthew: 2 people. Mark: 3 people. Luke: at least 4 and above. John: 1)
2. The number of angels and how they appeared (matthew: 1 angel flew down, caused earthquake, roll stone then. Mark: 1 Angel appeared outside after women went in. Luke: Suddenly 2 angles appeared outside after women went out. John: No angel)
3. Women behavior after (matthew: Met jesus, happily tell other to go to mountain where jesus preach. Mark: women afraid and keep quiet. Luke: tell to the disciples, who don't believed them. John: Mary told disciples, and they ran to tomb)
4. How mary meet jesus (matthew: outside tomb, with another mary, before telling disciples. Mark: drive out 7 spririts from mary. Luke: never mention. John: mary cry outside tomb, after disciples left then jesus appeared)
U says it does not contradict, then explain all of them la ! If these r not contradictions, then wat is ? Unless u can answer all of them, then u r the dumb schmuck. Instead of proving there is no inconsistencies, u decide to go personal and just scold me without showing justifications. If u wanna scold, then scold lor..
If you, a modern man, can make such errors even with the convenience of the books and the internet at your disposal, frankly those witnesses that lived thousands of years ago were better than you.
Wat error did I make ? Without having a conclusion, u already judged tat I am wrong. Wow.
They had to commit to memory many events that took place when writing materials were not available. After a few decades, they were prone to miss out some details or mix up the chronological order of the events when they had to recall from memory. The authors, all came from different walks of life, were also free to include or ommit details to suit a different audience.These are reasonable assumptions.
It is not about ommiting details. It is about completely different point altogether. U try to downplay it as though there is no contradictions but u failed. U cannot prove it. U agreed tat there is contradictions by mentioning "miss out details" when they have to "recall from memories".
Talking about human error into the bible, then u r in trouble. Which part is right or wrong ? Any part of the bible u read can be human errors. The authors can be over zealous and add in his own details in. The author may not like tis detail and take it out. Then wat do u have ? A faulty scripture. If u go indepth, there r many more contradiction and logical flaws in the bible. Wat does it tell ?
Didn't realise u have post another reply before my reply. Anyway here goes
Who r the first witnesses to jesus ?
First, technically speaking, Jesus appeared to 2 Mary at the same time for matthew. For Mark, the story is puzzling but they do say jesus appear to mary magdalene first. For Luke, the first time jesus appeared is to 2 guys. For john, it appeared to mary magdalene.
If u wanna say tat they never specifically mentioned in Luke tat the first person jesus met is the 2 guy, then it is also not technically right to say mary met jesus first in John and matthew as well because they never specifically say they r the first witnesses as well. If u look at the time frame for Luke, a reasonable reader can inferred the first witnesses r the 2 guys. And it is a suprise because it is an important point and it is silly to left it out
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Didn't realise u have post another reply before my reply. Anyway here goes
Who r the first witnesses to jesus ?
First, technically speaking, Jesus appeared to 2 Mary at the same time for matthew. For Mark, the story is puzzling but they do say jesus appear to mary magdalene first. For Luke, the first time jesus appeared is to 2 guys. For john, it appeared to mary magdalene.
If u wanna say tat they never specifically mentioned in Luke tat the first person jesus met is the 2 guy, then it is also not technically right to say mary met jesus first in John and matthew as well because they never specifically say they r the first witnesses as well. If u look at the time frame for Luke, a reasonable reader can inferred the first witnesses r the 2 guys. And it is a suprise because it is an important point and it is silly to left it out
Mark
16:9-11 - When Jesus rose early on that first day of the week, he appeared first of all to Mary of Magdala, from whom he had driven out seven evil spirits. And she went and reported this to his sorrowing and weeping followers. They heard her say that he was alive and that she had seen him, but they did not believe it.
Did Jesus drove the evil spirits away from Magdalene after she first saw the resurrection or was the verse referring to the exorcism that Jesus had performed on her when he first met her before his crucifixion, mentioned in Luke 8.2? It’s your wrong assumption in your summary that Jesus drove out the demons when he appeared to Magdalene after his resurrection!
Was it possible that the other Mary was also present but Mark only focused on Magdalene who saw Jesus first?
Matthew
28:8 - Then the women went away quickly from the tomb, their hearts filled with awe and great joy, and ran to give the news to his disciples.
28:9-10 - But quite suddenly, Jesus stood before them in their path, and said, "Peace be with you!" And they went forward to meet him and, clasping his feet, worshipped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go now and tell my brothers to go into Galilee and they shall see me there"
For argument sake, did both Mary stuck together like glue? But quite suddenly, Jesus stood before them. Could it be possible that Magdalene looked up and saw him first before he caught the attention of the other Mary, who could have be a few feet behind Magdalene? We can’t be certain that both Marys saw him at the same instant..
Luke
24:8-9 - Then they did remember what he had said, and they turned their backs on the tomb and went and told all this to the eleven and the others who were with them.
24:10-12 - It was Mary of Magdala, Joanna, the mother of James, and their companions who made this report to the apostles. But it struck them as sheer imagination, and they did not believe the women. Only Peter got up and ran to the tomb. He stooped down and saw the linen clothes lying there all by themselves, and he went home wondering at what had happened.
The walk to Emmaus
24:13-17 - Then on the same day we find two of them going off to Emmaus, a village about seven miles from Jerusalem. As they went they were deep in conversation about everything that had happened. While they were absorbed in their serious talk and discussion, Jesus himself approached and walked along with them, but something prevented them from recognizing him. Then he spoke to them, "What is all this discussion that you are having on your walk?"
24:18 - They stopped, their faces drawn with misery, and the one called Cleopas replied, "You must be the only stranger in Jerusalem who hasn't heard all the things that have happened there recently!"
Luke did not say that any women had seen Jesus on their way back from the tomb. Neither did Luke said that the two men were the first to see Jesus after the resurrection on the same day. If there’s any contraction here, it’s purely speculation.
What is important about who saw Jesus first? The stories said that he appeared to hundreds of people on different occasions.
Now are you satisfied that you are a dumb schmuck?
U know wat u r doing. U just proved to other people wat subjective reading is. U add in the details yourself and interprete the whole scripture completely different from the literal meaning.
First thing first, u have not replied to the list of 4 questions I had asked on the earlier post. I wanna see how creative u can get in interpreting them
For argument sake, did both Mary stuck together like glue? But quite suddenly, Jesus stood before them. Could it be possible that Magdalene looked up and saw him first before he caught the attention of the other Mary, who could have be a few feet behind Magdalene? We can’t be certain that both Marys saw him at the same instant..
Come on lah... u read the passage yourself.
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.
The above is exactly the same wording when they see jesus for the first time. Now u tell me they do not stick like glue and Mary is the one who saw it first. Says who ? U r adding in your own details into the passage which otherwise is not there. Look at who is not only dumb, but dishonest schmuck around here. If u read at it literally, they meet jesus together. Otherwise u have to prove they did not see together
Was it possible that the other Mary was also present but Mark only focused on Magdalene who saw Jesus first?
All the actions mentioned Mary herself and not with other people. If it is 2 people who tell the disciples at the same time, it doesn't make coherent sense tat she include one and not the other. Look at Matthew They say both women tell disciples. If u look at Luke, all the women tell all the people wat they experienced at the tomb. If u look at John. it do hint tat Mary is alone. Now u tell me Mary is not alone in Mark. Given the evidence tat there is not mention of other people, u have to prove tat out instead of speculating.
Luke did not say that any women had seen Jesus on their way back from the tomb. Neither did Luke said that the two men were the first to see Jesus after the resurrection on the same day. If there’s any contraction here, it’s purely speculation.
U failed to read properly. Luke 24:13
Now that same day two of them are going to a village called Emmaus
It is the same day the women went to the tomb ! Dumb dishonest schmuck, r u convinced now ? And I never say tat in Luke the women saw jesus. I say they didn't. I say the first witness according to Luke r the 2 guys. Did u read at all, dumb schmuck ?
What is important about who saw Jesus first? The stories said that he appeared to hundreds of people on different occasions.
I am proving there r bible contradictions and there r abundant of it. Tat becomes important. U know there r much more contradictions in the bible and if there r contradictions, anything u read from the bible can be wrong
Going by googoomuck reading ability, I can deduced who is the first witness to jesus resurrection
Yes it is true
It is the Flying Spaghetti Monster !!! (to many cheers and clap)
Why ? If u read the Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, NONE OF THEM SAYS the flying spaghetti monster is not present ! Since no one specifically mention tat line, then it means it is possible ! Tat is how googoomuck always say right ? If the bible don't mention it, he can play and twist and corrupt anything he like and just list it as "possible". Flying spaghetti monster is possible too then !
Furthermore, if u look at Luke, John and Matthew, they never say the first people who see Jesus r Mary. Tat means the first person who witness it is someone else, and it is the flying spaghetti monster ! Just like wat googoomuck like to say. Mary appears to be alone, but no line saying she is alone, so it must means she is not alone ! Wow ! Since these 3 books never say Mary is the first witness, then the first witness can be FSM ! So FSM is the first witness and googoomuck is wrong !
Why do the authors not include it in the bible ? It is because they forgot after some time... u know 20-30 years never write it out, their memory rusty etc. So they forgot to write accurately and leave out tis detail. U know they cater to different people and thought the details not important one... Since tis is expected, then we can expect the authors to leave out the flying spaghetti monster in their account too. U don't like wat I said ? Sorry, tat is wat googoomuck said about the authors. Don't blame me