The Hardening of Pharaoh's heart - is free will a farce?

• Icemoon

  5 Jan 08, 21:43

  The oft-repeated statement about us having free will and we are judged because of that, we have heard it countless time.
  
  It surfaces in the creation story, because Adam and Eve had free will, even though they had absolutely no knowledge of good and evil, they were judged to have committed the first sin.
  
  And so here is my discussion question for today:
  
  How can we see the hardening of Pharaoh's heart in light of the free will argument?
• Icemoon

  5 Jan 08, 21:54

  Inevitably, the question was asked in the Jewish tradition (Midrash Rabbah):
  
  

  Does this not provide heretics with ground for arguing that he had no means of repenting, since it says 'for I have hardened his heart'?

• Phaze

  6 Jan 08, 01:20

  Originally posted by Icemoon:

  Inevitably, the question was asked in the Jewish tradition (Midrash Rabbah):
  
  

  There are many other examples (though I confess I can't really remember most of them).
  
  One example is 2 Thessalonians 2:11:
  
  "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
  
  So it's not uncommon for god to cause someone to act a certain way, then punish them for it.
  
  But then again, god isn't a just god anyway.
  
  Exodus 20:5 is, in my opinion, the worst example:
  
  "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"
  
  That children are to suffer for the sins of their fathers is completely unjust.
• Icemoon

  6 Jan 08, 02:14

  Originally posted by Phaze:

  But then again, god isn't a just god anyway.
  
  Exodus 20:5 is, in my opinion, the worst example:
  
  "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"
  
  That children are to suffer for the sins of their fathers is completely unjust.

  Actually there seem to be a bigger problem here - the bible contradicts itself!
  
  Look at:
  
  

  Deu 24
  
  16 Parents shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their parents; only for their own crimes may persons be put to death.

  And here is Exodus 20:5 which you quoted:
  
  

  5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

  How leh?
• Phaze

  6 Jan 08, 02:24

  Are you familiar with the documentary hypothesis?
  
  The J, E, D and Q sources?
• Icemoon

  6 Jan 08, 02:27

  Originally posted by Phaze:

  Are you familiar with the documentary hypothesis?
  
  The J, E, D and Q sources?

  Sort of.
  
  But then we wonder why there are still so many apparent contradictions. And the editorial work sucks.