The world is created by god or devil?
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who cares this world is created by whom..
one day we all die.. that is wat matters -
I think the free will excuse is just that - an excuse.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:free will.
tough concept. i find it hard to explain too.
After all, God does intervene with miracles. We wonder why God never intervene in the Garden of Eden. -
I think you make a good point.Originally posted by Icemoon:I think the free will excuse is just that - an excuse.
After all, God does intervene with miracles. We wonder why God never intervene in the Garden of Eden.
Personally I find the Genesis story really fascinating. God placed man in the garden of eden and instructed that that they could eat of any tree except the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
But without knowledge of good and evil, how could man understand disobedience? And for that matter, why is nakedness evil?
What is interesting is why god cast man out of the garden of eden. Genesis 3:22 tells us "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"
Man became partially as god, with the knowledge of good and evil and man had to be cast out LEST he ate from the tree of life and live forever. Had he done so he would have become as god. What if man had eaten of the tree of life first?
Why couldn't god have taken away the knowledge of good and evil? I think someone mentioned before that once god gives a gift, god does not take it away. I find that to be a strange argument. God gives us the gift of life and he takes it away all the time. And in fact, God basically redoes creation again with the flood. He kills every living thing on the earth save a few. Why? -
Christianity's argument - they were immortals to begin with. After the Fall, cannot give them chance to be immortals again.Originally posted by Phaze:Man became partially as god, with the knowledge of good and evil and man had to be cast out LEST he ate from the tree of life and live forever. Had he done so he would have become as god. What if man had eaten of the tree of life first? -
double post.
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Okay. So man was immortal in the garden. So the Tree of Life did not matter. So the Tree of Life only becomes a factor after man eats the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.Originally posted by Icemoon:Christianity's argument - they were immortals to begin with. After the Fall, cannot give them chance to be immortals again.
And why can't man be immortal? What's wrong with that? After all, god created man in his own image. What is wrong with having knowledge of good and evil and immortality?
Or even if God did not want man to be immortal, why not just take away the Tree of Life? Why punish man to such a degree when man had no knowledge of good and evil? -
This got to be one of the most intriguing part in the Jewish exegesis of the Eden account.Originally posted by Phaze:And for that matter, why is nakedness evil?
The Torah contains literary devices that drop hints and lead you to deeper things, but it is only obvious in Hebrew.
Here is one such device.Genesis 2:25
And right in THE VERY NEXT VERSE,
The man and his wife were both naked, but they were not embarrassed by one another.
Vayihyu shneyhem arumim ha'adam ve'ishto velo yitboshashu.Genesis 3:1
The Bible originally did not have chapter headings, so 2:25 and 3:1 were really consecutive verses.
The serpent was the most cunning of all the wild beasts that God had made. [The serpent] asked the woman, 'Did God really say that you may not eat from any of the trees of the garden?'
Vehanachash hayah arum mikol chayat hasadeh asher asah Adonay Elohim vayomer el-ha'ishah af ki-amar Elohim lo tochelu mikol ets hagan.
Notice the Hebrew for 'naked' and 'cunning' are the same - arum.
Aren't the two opposites of each other? Nakedness has more to do with innocence whereas a cunning fellow is the very opposite, covering himself with sheep clothings.
Huh?
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Since your "God" is omnipotent, why can't he make everything perfect?
This is so lame
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well, actually He did.Originally posted by Philip Pullman:Since your "God" is omnipotent, why can't he make everything perfect?
This is so lame 
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the world was created within 6 days so E***
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The argument of "how could Adam and Eve fall, if God made them perfect" has been ongoing for ages.
The truth is, they were made perfect, yet with one attribute - freewill.
Adam and Eve were given free choices and freewill, because God loves them. He did not make them robots with pre-programmed actions. Their actions and decisions were their own. They could choose not to obey, if they so choose, that is what love is about - God is not a control freak.
So Adam and Eve fell because of their disobedience.
Corruption entered them, and if they were not removed from Eden, that corruption will destroy Eden as well - a paradise made for them. So they were removed out of the protected zone and became unprotected.
So they were naked but not ashamed, but now they are naked, but yet they knew shame and their first reaction was fear. Fear of God, fear of the elements, fear of everything - for the first time, they were exposed to fear and harm.
The privilege and full authority had been usurped. -
If you do not know where you come from, you do not know where you are going, and who you are right now. That makes you nothing more than a piece of walking flesh in existence.Originally posted by Zarks:who cares this world is created by whom..
one day we all die.. that is wat matters -
He could have done the obvious: remove the corruptionOriginally posted by specialOps:The argument of "how could Adam and Eve fall, if God made them perfect" has been ongoing for ages.
The truth is, they were made perfect, yet with one attribute - freewill.
Adam and Eve were given free choices and freewill, because God loves them. He did not make them robots with pre-programmed actions. Their actions and decisions were their own. They could choose not to obey, if they so choose, that is what love is about - God is not a control freak.
So Adam and Eve fell because of their disobedience.
Corruption entered them, and if they were not removed from Eden, that corruption will destroy Eden as well - a paradise made for them. So they were removed out of the protected zone and became unprotected.
So they were naked but not ashamed, but now they are naked, but yet they knew shame and their first reaction was fear. Fear of God, fear of the elements, fear of everything - for the first time, they were exposed to fear and harm.
The privilege and full authority had been usurped. -
Actually where was it indicated they knew shame?Originally posted by specialOps:So they were naked but not ashamed, but now they are naked, but yet they knew shame and their first reaction was fear. Fear of God, fear of the elements, fear of everything - for the first time, they were exposed to fear and harm.
Jewish exegesis, inviting us to read deeper, pointed out the following interesting observation:
1. Why did the couple hid themselves from God?
Before they hid from God, they already made loincloths for themselves liao right? So why was it that they were comfortable hiding TOGETHER but uncomfortable with facing God?
Furthermore, since God created them, what is there to be uncomfortable about?
And most interestingly, look at the reason given by Adam:But the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, ‘Where are you?’ 10He said, ‘I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Which is why I asked you - where was it indicated they knew shame? Jewish exegesis ask the following question - when someone is naked, the first thing he/she will feel is shame. But the reason given by Adam is that he was AFRAID.
What is there to be afraid of? Let's say he is afraid of God punishing him of his misdeed, but what have this to do with the fact that he was naked? Why didn't Adam say he was afraid 'cos he just ate the fruit? Furthermore, didn't he and Eve just made provisional clothes for themselves?
More and more questions. This is the beauty of the Jewish exegesis of the Bible.
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In my reply to Phaze, I mentioned that nakedness is a theme in the Eden account.
In fact, the author of Genesis uses the SAME Hebrew word to describe the state of the first couple (they were naked) and the characteristic of the snake (he was cunning).
Jewish exegesis challenge the reader to think why is that so.
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I am a christian, and God didnt.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:well, actually He did. 
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But you ignored the gist of Phaze's challenge - before eating from the tree of good and evil, before knowing good and evil, how can their free will propel them to disobey God?Originally posted by specialOps:The argument of "how could Adam and Eve fall, if God made them perfect" has been ongoing for ages.
The truth is, they were made perfect, yet with one attribute - freewill.
Adam and Eve were given free choices and freewill, because God loves them. He did not make them robots with pre-programmed actions. Their actions and decisions were their own. They could choose not to obey, if they so choose, that is what love is about - God is not a control freak.
So Adam and Eve fell because of their disobedience.
As an example, before knowing the rules of dai-dee, how you know whether Ace bigger or No. 2 bigger? -
...why remove the tree after and not before?
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
remove what tree? what before after?
...why remove the tree [b]after and not before? [/b] -
God had told Adam before, what not to do and what would happen.Originally posted by Icemoon:But you ignored the gist of Phaze's challenge - before eating from the tree of good and evil, before knowing good and evil, how can their free will propel them to disobey God?
As an example, before knowing the rules of dai-dee, how you know whether Ace bigger or No. 2 bigger?
Adam knew right and wrong...he was not deceived. Eve was, and Adam's sin was not stopping Eve, or covering Eve after she sinned, instead he followed, even though he knew what was right and wrong. -
Are you sure he knew what was right (from God's perspective) and wrong (from God's perspective)?Originally posted by specialOps:God had told Adam before, what not to do and what would happen.
Adam knew right and wrong...he was not deceived. Eve was, and Adam's sin was not stopping Eve, or covering Eve after she sinned, instead he followed, even though he knew what was right and wrong.
Furthermore, from Eve's perspective, what God said did not happen, at least immediately. She ate from the fruit, she did not die. Both ate, both were still alive.
Without becoming like God and His angels who know good and evil, how can they be judged by their action?
This is something I feel is missing from the Christian exegesis. They cannot convincingly bridge the gap between right/wrong and good/evil. To outsiders like Phaze, the whole incident sounds very unfair. -
Read carefully at what God instructed him, what he could do and what he could not do.
Symbol of the tree
The only 'out of bounds' marker is the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God instructed Adam not to eat of it, the tree is a symbol of a freewill ability to choose between obedience/disobedience.
The tree is also a symbol of the tithe, that everything was given to man, except for a small part to honour and remember God, failing which, will be trespassing on the sovereignity of God.
'Death'
'Death' here meant different deaths. Adam and Eve experienced this instantly, as said in the bible, their minds were darkened.
Consider this, before eating of the tree, they were given authority and had great power over the earth, they were afraid of nothing. It was their minds that enabled them to do that, and instantly a part of their minds died.
Now they have to live in fear, and needed clothing and protection, which they previously did not need.
Then they also experienced spiritual death, their relationship with God and the ability so see and talk to a Holy God was broken - spiritual death.
Eventually, they also experience physical death. They were made immortal, but now they are suddenly prone to sickness, disease, pain and will eventually die.
Question
So was it unfair to Adam? I don't think so. He was already warned and told exactly what would happen, God didn't deceive him into sinning, he already knew his out-of-bounds place.
The half-truth
The devil told a half true, that many people even today read and take it as truth.
What the devil did, was to take what God had spoken, then insert a doubt "did God really say you would die? No you wouldn't...."
Here the devil lied that they wouldn't die, which was not true, they will die - spiritually, mentally, physically. So its a lie.
Will they become like God? No. This is a lie from the devil again. This knowledge of good and evil was the corruption in their mind, such that the knowledge of how to sin would enter them.
Prior to this, Adam and Even were innocent, and they did not know how to sin and what sin was.
So another argument was since they did not know how to sin, then they didn't sin when they eat of the fruit. But you fail to remember that the only thing God had given them a choice before that was obedience vs. disobedience. Therefore before eating of the fruit, they knew only one sin not to commit , which is not to disobey.
Therefore Adam still sinned, and disobeyed, because he broke the only ONE law that he was supposed to keep. -
This is not what the bible tells us.Originally posted by specialOps:Will they become like God? No. This is a lie from the devil again. This knowledge of good and evil was the corruption in their mind, such that the knowledge of how to sin would enter them.
The bible tells us:Genesis 3
22 Then the Lord God said, ‘See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever’—
Edit: Furthermore you need to explain why man was created in the image of God, but lacked the knowledge of good and evil. And when he finally got it, it was considered poison to him, but it doesn't seem so for God and His angels.
So your statement is incorrect, they did become like God and this is verified by God Himself! Obviously the serpent was talking about becoming like God in this aspect, not that they will really become like God, with all the omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient qualities. -
The original in Hebrew leads to a slightly different understanding; it isn't really a case of inserting a doubt. It is something else deeper altogether.Originally posted by specialOps:What the devil did, was to take what God had spoken, then insert a doubt "did God really say you would die? No you wouldn't...."
Here the devil lied that they wouldn't die, which was not true, they will die - spiritually, mentally, physically. So its a lie.
Actually not sure if you guys notice it, but Jewish tradition pointed out an interesting observation:
In the same paragraph in Genesis 3, Eve said:2The woman said to the serpent, ‘We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; 3but God said, “You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.”
There is something wrong with the prohibition mentioned by Eve which she heard from Adam. Spot the mistake, guys!
Here is how Scripture records the prohibition to Adam in Genesis 2:16And the Lord God commanded the man, ‘You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.’
So the mistake is obvious - Adam was not told that it is forbidden to touch the tree. Well, as the gardener, he must be allowed to touch the tree, or else how he prune it?
Back to Eve, in her mind the whole tree is poisonous to her. The whole tree is inaccessible to her. Anyone who is not crazy will not want to touch it.
And because the prohibition came from God, the more one should not touch it. If Adam was told via a donkey the prohibition, then maybe Eve could ignore it, since the donkey might be lying. But if God - the one who presumably walked with the couple in the Garden everyday and whom the couple knows is GOD - is the originator, then how can they ever break the transgression?
It just doesn't make sense! Furthermore the Christian explanation simply dismisses the whole incident as a case of disobedience.
There ought to be this resistance in her heart that the tree must not be touched. Imagine .. touching it and you are dead. Is it worth your life to disobey God?
So what did the cunning serpent do to overcome her resistance? Jewish tradition gave the solution - the serpent pushed Eve to the tree (or the fruit, I can't remember). The point is that at that moment, Eve knew that *maybe* this God is not so great after all, maybe eat liao also bo daiji, since I touch the tree but still haven't mati.
Personally I find Jewish exegesis very enlightening. Imagine this scenario - the serpent pushed Eve to the tree. Bo daiji leh! Then the serpent told Eve, "You will NOT die .. " -
Not making sense here. So did Adam know how to sin and what sin was or not? Alternatively, as some people ask, when did sin first enter into human?Originally posted by specialOps:Prior to this, Adam and Even were innocent, and they did not know how to sin and what sin was.
So another argument was since they did not know how to sin, then they didn't sin when they eat of the fruit. But you fail to remember that the only thing God had given them a choice before that was obedience vs. disobedience. Therefore before eating of the fruit, they knew only one sin not to commit , which is not to disobey.
Therefore Adam still sinned, and disobeyed, because he broke the only ONE law that he was supposed to keep.
This is why I personally find the Christian explanation unsatisfying. The conclusion is set. Any explanation can be cooked out as long as it supports the notion of the Fall.