I think this is a good video to explain christian's position
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hmm, i think this video really explains our positions as christians, and why we do the things we do even though that earns us a bad name. and this is from an athiest too.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=210_1176394128 -
many times i've seen ugly spats between christians and non believers in this forum, and christians are labeled as bigots, and arrogant to assume that they're going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell. its either our way or the highway etc.
and you get unproductive debates which becomes so personal, that both parties gets hurt and discouraged which really don't help anyone. and in fact it becomes so bad that sometimes both parties walk away totally misunderstanding each other and can't even be friends (i'd quote you 2 forumites who are in this position now, but i rather keep it confidential)
its really refreshing to see an athiest who really understands our position as christians and why we do the things we do. and in fact he finds it disturbing that christians don't live to their calling for fear of being verbally attacked by non believers and labeled with ugly tags. -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!
From the christian POV, please correct me if I am wrong.
many times i've seen ugly spats between christians and non believers in this forum, and christians are labeled as bigots, and arrogant to assume that they're going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell. its either our way or the highway etc.
and you get unproductive debates which becomes so personal, that both parties gets hurt and discouraged which really don't help anyone. and in fact it becomes so bad that sometimes both parties walk away totally misunderstanding each other and can't even be friends (i'd quote you 2 forumites who are in this position now, but i rather keep it confidential)
its really refreshing to see an athiest who really understands our position as christians and why we do the things we do. and in fact he finds it disturbing that christians don't live to their calling for fear of being verbally attacked by non believers and labeled with ugly tags.
1. Believers of the NT(Jesus) will go to heaven in their afterlife, while all unbelievers go to Hell.
2. Believers are commanded by the gospel to share the gospel to all people in order to save them from eternal damnation in hell. A thankless task which very often creates misunderstanding and ill feelings towards the "helper" by those people who are being "helped". However, a good christian must endure hardship and ridicule to 'save' those people who don't deserve to be 'saved'. A very commendable and selfless ideal.
Perhaps TS, should also try to appreciate the POV of those people he is trying to help. Let me explain. To the Jews, the first commandment of God is non-negotiable. The concept of Trinity is incompetible with Judiasm. From the Jew's POV christianity brings eternal death not eternal salvation. So How?
It is tragic that both faiths shared the same book, the old testament, yet this same book is interpreted so differently. -
Actually the concept of Trinity is not really incompatible with Judaism. It is more like .. what do you have to prove it? Looking at the Tanakh and the Oral Tradition, there is not much evidence to support the concept, unless of course you disregard them and read the New Testament first.Originally posted by Creation1656:Perhaps TS, should also try to appreciate the POV of those people he is trying to help. Let me explain. To the Jews, the first commandment of God is non-negotiable. The concept of Trinity is incompetible with Judiasm. From the Jew's POV christianity brings eternal death not eternal salvation. So How?
As to why it is not really incompatible, look at how God first revealed Himself to Moses at the burning bush -- Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh. I will be what I shall be. -
1. Believers of Yeshua will go to heaven? Unbelievers will flame in hell for eternity?Originally posted by Creation1656:From the christian POV, please correct me if I am wrong.
1. Believers of the NT(Jesus) will go to heaven in their afterlife, while all unbelievers go to Hell.
2. Believers are commanded by the gospel to share the gospel to all people in order to save them from eternal damnation in hell. A thankless task which very often creates misunderstanding and ill feelings towards the "helper" by those people who are being "helped". However, a good christian must endure hardship and ridicule to 'save' those people who don't deserve to be 'saved'. A very commendable and selfless ideal.
Perhaps TS, should also try to appreciate the POV of those people he is trying to help. Let me explain. To the Jews, the first commandment of God is non-negotiable. The concept of Trinity is incompetible with Judiasm. From the Jew's POV christianity brings eternal death not eternal salvation. So How?
It is tragic that both faiths shared the same book, the old testament, yet this same book is interpreted so differently.
2. Believers were commanded to make talmidim and share the good news. But not force people to believe... that was on their own heads, whether they did or not, and I think the christians have gone to extremes with this.
Beresheet 1:26 Yahweh said let us make mankind in our image... so it goes to show that the Jews are not unfamiliar with the concept, it is just they see it differently....as they say in the Shema:
SHEMA ISRAEL ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHAD.
Hear Oh Israel, The Lord thy God, the Lord is ONE. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
How about this daily prayers. The first commandment.
Beresheet 1:26 Yahweh said let us make mankind in our image... so it goes to show that the Jews are not unfamiliar with the concept, it is just they see it differently....as they say in the Shema:
SHEMA ISRAEL ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHAD.
Hear Oh Israel, The Lord thy God, the Lord is ONE.
SH'MA ISREAL ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHAD.
BARUCH SHEM K'VOH MALHUTO L'OLAM VAR'ED.
Hear O Isreal, The LORD thy God, the LORD is ONE.
Blessed be His Name and His glorious kindom forever. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Actually the real problem is the question of divinity of the messiah.
Actually the concept of Trinity is not really incompatible with Judaism. It is more like .. what do you have to prove it? Looking at the Tanakh and the Oral Tradition, there is not much evidence to support the concept, unless of course you disregard them and read the New Testament first.
As to why it is not really incompatible, look at how God first revealed Himself to Moses at the burning bush -- Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh. I will be what I shall be. -
No compelling evidence to believe the messiah is divine.Originally posted by Creation1656:Actually the real problem is the question of divinity of the messiah.
However because God is Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, the idea of a divine messiah is not incompatible with Judaism too.
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what is this?Originally posted by Creation1656:How about this daily prayers. The first commandment.
SH'MA ISREAL ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHAD.
BARUCH SHEM K'VOH MALHUTO L'OLAM VAR'ED.
Hear O Isreal, The LORD thy God, the LORD is ONE.
Blessed be His Name and His glorious kindom forever.
prayer competition ah?
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Jews are familiar with A LOT of concepts .. which one are you referring to?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Beresheet 1:26 Yahweh said let us make mankind in our image... so it goes to show that the Jews are not unfamiliar with the concept, it is just they see it differently....as they say in the Shema:
SHEMA ISRAEL ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHAD.
Hear Oh Israel, The Lord thy God, the Lord is ONE.
You can have the ten sefirot and this is not heretical in Judaism too.
But there is no compelling evidence for the Trinity in the Tanakh and indeed every verse used to support the Trinity can be interpreted differently. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:1. Believers of Yeshua will go to heaven? Unbelievers will flame in hell for eternity?[/quote]
Brey, you are not a real christian, you don't believe in Hell. According to real christian you are a nut case. Read this post by a true blue christian
[quote]Originally posted by specialOps:
Before I answer further, are u a Jew?
Have u been to a theological college before?
Or are you just a nut? -
nvm....the "real christians" have too much of a hard time seeing where I am coming from...Originally posted by Icemoon:Jews are familiar with A LOT of concepts .. which one are you referring to?
You can have the ten sefirot and this is not heretical in Judaism too.
But there is no compelling evidence for the Trinity in the Tanakh and indeed every verse used to support the Trinity can be interpreted differently. -
creation, please give me the definition of what defines a real christian...Originally posted by Creation1656:Brey, you are not a real christian, you don't believe in Hell. According to real christian you are a nut case. Read this post by a true blue christian -
Thanks, I will "try" to remember the rest of the shema when I quote it next...Originally posted by Creation1656:How about this daily prayers. The first commandment.
SH'MA ISREAL ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHAD.
BARUCH SHEM K'VOH MALHUTO L'OLAM VAR'ED.
Hear O Isreal, The LORD thy God, the LORD is ONE.
Blessed be His Name and His glorious kindom forever. -
Here comes the definition:Originally posted by breytonhartge:creation, please give me the definition of what defines a real christian...
A new creation! -
I can see where you come from.Originally posted by breytonhartge:nvm....the "real christians" have too much of a hard time seeing where I am coming from...
I can also see where they come from.
But I dunno where I come from.
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A real christian go to church. Real christian also believe in eternal hell. Real christian believe that they go to heaven in their afterlife.Originally posted by breytonhartge:creation, please give me the definition of what defines a real christian -
Going to church does not define a real christian.Originally posted by Creation1656:A real christian go to church. Real christian also believe in eternal hell. Real christian believe that they go to heaven in their afterlife.
Neither does a belief in eternal hell...
neither does the belief of going to heaven... -
That was why I said .. a real christian is one that is reborn, a new creation.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Going to church does not define a real christian.
Neither does a belief in eternal hell...
neither does the belief of going to heaven...
It is not about your belief or action man. It is not what you see about yourself, but what God sees about you. -
it is not even what Yahweh see's about you, but about living the life He has set out for you to lead according to the Tanakh.Originally posted by Icemoon:That was why I said .. a real christian is one that is reborn, a new creation.
It is not about your belief or action man. It is not what you see about yourself, but what God sees about you. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
This name "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" in the Tanakh carry a footnote. "Meaning of Hebrew uncertain, variously translated: "I Am That I Am", "I Am Who I Am", "I Will Be What I Will Be". etc
As to why it is not really incompatible, look at how God first revealed Himself to Moses at the burning bush -- Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh. I will be what I shall be. -
your point being??Originally posted by Creation1656:This name "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" in the Tanakh carry a footnote. "Meaning of Hebrew uncertain, variously translated: "I Am That I Am", "I Am Who I Am", "I Will Be What I Will Be". etc -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
The scholars are not 100% sure as the original hebrew meaning cannot be 100% verified.
your point being?? -
The exact meaning doesn't matter.Originally posted by Creation1656:This name "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" in the Tanakh carry a footnote. "Meaning of Hebrew uncertain, variously translated: "I Am That I Am", "I Am Who I Am", "I Will Be What I Will Be". etc
The gist is that the LORD is what He is. He will be what He will be. Mortals cannot contain Him in a box and say He must be like this, or He must be like that, or He cannot be like this.
In one of the most 'majestic' account from the Old Testament,1 Kings 19:
In this episode, God was not in any of the powerful elements. Elijah actually 'saw' God in the sound of sheer silence. Wait a minute .. how can you hear sheer silence?
11 He said, ‘Go out and stand on the mountain before the Lord, for the Lord is about to pass by.’ Now there was a great wind, so strong that it was splitting mountains and breaking rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake; 12and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of sheer silence. 13When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. -
What did rabbinical tradition say?Originally posted by Creation1656:The scholars are not 100% sure as the original hebrew meaning cannot be 100% verified.
You have an english translation of Exodus Rabbah or not?