First Female Bishop!
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Well, she took office quite some time ago already.. however.. never knew anglican had one....
The Most Revd Dr Katharine Jefferts Schori
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She is from USA Episcopal (Anglican) church..........the church which also ordains gay clergy.
The Episcopal Church will soon be kicked out of the Anglican communion....as it is, Anglican Churches in africa and Asia have already de-fellowshipped with them....
Either they go, or Asia and Africa will leave the Anglican communion.....
Meanwhile, the USA is seen as by conservatives as pagan unevangelised territory, so Asia/Africa will be sending out missionaries to the USA pagan land....and ordaining US priests who disagree with the gay agenda in the church..
I have nothing against female bishops......but gay clergy is out !!!! -
One thing leads to another... If the women want 'equality', should the gays be deprived of it?Originally posted by Dr Who:I have nothing against female bishops......but gay clergy is out !!!! -
But didn't Scripture prevent women from teaching in Church and that they must be silent? How can one be Bishop and yet not teach?
Scripture:1 Cor 14:33-35
I believe this is why none of the Churches who adhere in the doctrine of Apostolic Succession - Anglicans, EO, EC, RC - ordains a female cleric.
As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church.
1 Tim 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet for Adam was formed first, then Eve. -
But who are we to argue, who God will call to a ministry??Originally posted by vadermanu89:But didn't Scripture prevent women from teaching in Church and that they must be silent? How can one be Bishop and yet not teach?
Scripture:
I believe this is why none of the Churches who adhere in the doctrine of Apostolic Succession - Anglicans, EO, EC, RC - ordains a female cleric.
Some also may argue, at that time, Paul maybe was talking about the female pagans priesthood at that time... -
I think women can teach lah, just not hold pastoral positions.Originally posted by vadermanu89:But didn't Scripture prevent women from teaching in Church and that they must be silent? How can one be Bishop and yet not teach?
If you look at Calvin's fourfold office - pastors, teachers, elders and deacons - the teaching role is separate from the pastoral role. -
what female pagan priesthood?Originally posted by mhcampboy:Some also may argue, at that time, Paul maybe was talking about the female pagans priesthood at that time...
Paul was talking about people in the christian church, no meh? -
so grosss
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Perhaps we should ask the Sacred Writers that haha?Originally posted by mhcampboy:But who are we to argue, who God will call to a ministry??
They gave a clear rule, I think we should adhere to it. It is wrong to forsake Scripture just to please the evils of this world. -
Are you a Catholic?Originally posted by vadermanu89:Perhaps we should ask the Sacred Writers that haha?
They gave a clear rule, I think we should adhere to it. It is wrong to forsake Scripture just to please the evils of this world.
You sound like one.
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Well, the people of corinthians worshiped Diana, the goddess of fertility...Originally posted by Icemoon:what female pagan priesthood?
Paul was talking about people in the christian church, no meh?
So the women priests of the temple of diana wasnt such a good example....
So maybe, that particular letter only applies to the pagan priests...
Cos, if the law that only men shld be priests.. i am sure the other letters might have recorded it...
and about timothy... tats the law abt the authority of man... not about church... -
Also in corinthians.. there are so many wrong stuffs... like taking food out of the eucharist... and paul is straightening it out....
And since corithians is the mecca of the worship of diana.. it makes sense tat the particular verse is directed to the women of the paganic religion...
but of cos i dn support ordained females.. yet.
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actually what did that letter say?Originally posted by mhcampboy:Well, the people of corinthians worshiped Diana, the goddess of fertility...
So the women priests of the temple of diana wasnt such a good example....
So maybe, that particular letter only applies to the pagan priests...
but then .. why would Paul chup pagan priests outside the church? -
he was converting and preaching to pagans....Originally posted by Icemoon:actually what did that letter say?
but then .. why would Paul chup pagan priests outside the church?
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his modus operandi when doing that was not to 'condemn' them but to somehow agree with them, while preaching the truth of the Gospel.Originally posted by mhcampboy:he was converting and preaching to pagans....
for instance, his speech on the Areopagus. -
I am sorry Mhcampboy. I fail to grasp your point that St Paul was preaching to pagan priests or what not. The Sacred Writer was writing to Christians in the Church of Corinth and had clearly ordered them (and his protege Timothy) not to allow women to teach or speak in Church (not pagan temples). It is hence impossible for women to be a Bishop and yet she must be silent and unable to teach. An analogy would be a teacher who isn't permitted to teach anything.Originally posted by mhcampboy:Well, the people of corinthians worshiped Diana, the goddess of fertility...
So the women priests of the temple of diana wasnt such a good example....
So maybe, that particular letter only applies to the pagan priests...
Cos, if the law that only men shld be priests.. i am sure the other letters might have recorded it...
and about timothy... tats the law abt the authority of man... not about church...As in ALL the CHURCHES of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church. Did the word of God go forth from you? Or has it come to you alone? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he should recognize that what I am writing to you is a commandment of the Lord.
Henceforth, I conclude the following arguments:
i) The Sacred Writer was addressing to Christians and was not sending a Watchtower Tract to pagan priests.
ii) The Sacred Writer reminded the Christians in Corinths that they must conform to a male ministry for - a) The Lord commands it to be so
- b) ALL Churches practiced it
iii) The Sacred Writer explains that women cannot speak in Church but must be silent instead and they must cover their heads in prayer!
iv) There are no instance of a female bishop being ordained in Scripure. -
There are no records of bishop in Scripture even.Originally posted by vadermanu89:iv) There are no instance of a female bishop being ordained in Scripure.
Edit: Especially in the churches mentioned by Paul. -
Maybe I sound wrong in my post.Originally posted by vadermanu89:Henceforth, I conclude the following arguments:
i) The Sacred Writer was addressing to Christians and was not sending a Watchtower Tract to pagan priests.
ii) The Sacred Writer reminded the Christians in Corinths that they must conform to a male ministry for - a) The Lord commands it to be so
- b) ALL Churches practiced it
iii) The Sacred Writer explains that women cannot speak in Church but must be silent instead and they must cover their heads in prayer!
iv) There are no instance of a female bishop being ordained in Scripure.
Yes Paul did not preached to the pagans.
He was talking to the church in Corithian. Paul was warning the Church that they should not look like the pagan worshipers lest people get the wrong idea about Christianity. And the pagan worshipers at Corinthians had priestesses.
It was not against women per se.
In fact, women are submissive to their husbands (or fathers) , but Paul also says men are submissive to their wives ......in other words, neither was "boss"..
Your body belongs to me, my body belongs to you but women have rebelled against God's law.....that's their human or carnal nature..
However, I am not saying I support ordained women... im just telling you the other side of the argument.... -
The term 'episkopoi' is mentioned in Titus 1:7, 1 Tim 3:1 and Phil 1:1Originally posted by Icemoon:There are no records of bishop in Scripture even.
Edit: Especially in the churches mentioned by Paul.
Overseers: the Greek term episkopos literally means "one who oversees" or "one who supervises," but since the second century it has come to designate the "bishop," the official who heads a local church. -
I believe Paul was describing an office more similar to elders (presbyter) than the bishop today.Originally posted by vadermanu89:The term 'episkopoi' is mentioned in Titus 1:7, 1 Tim 3:1 and Phil 1:1
Overseers: the Greek term episkopos literally means "one who oversees" or "one who supervises," but since the second century it has come to designate the "bishop," the official who heads a local church.
Let's examine the verses in their context.Titus 1
I believe Paul was describing the same office here, though 'elders' and 'bishop' are used.
5 I left you behind in Crete for this reason, that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you: 6someone who is blameless, married only once,* whose children are believers, not accused of debauchery and not rebellious. 7For a bishop,* as GodÂ’s steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or addicted to wine or violent or greedy for gain; 8but he must be hospitable, a lover of goodness, prudent, upright, devout, and self-controlled. 9He must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it.
Notice Paul stressed that elders are married. (impt later .. read below)1Tim 3
While only 'bishop' is described here, notice how similar it is to the description in Titus. And bishops should be married only once.
The saying is sure:* whoever aspires to the office of bishop* desires a noble task. 2Now a bishop* must be above reproach, married only once,* temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way— 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace and the snare of the devil.
From verse 8, Paul talks about deacons. (refer to Calvin's fourfold office)Phil 1
Yup, once again bishops and deacons.
Paul and Timothy, servants* of Christ Jesus,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops* and deacons
To reiterate, my point is that the office of bishop is not mentioned in Scripture. -
Titus 1
I believe the term 'elders' has been translated by various churches (those who believe in Apostolic Succession) as priests. The idea of married Priests is an ancient tradition. Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox priests are married. The celibacy laws is a western tradition.
5 I left you behind in Crete for this reason, that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you: 6someone who is blameless, married only once,* whose children are believers, not accused of debauchery and not rebellious. 7For a bishop,* as GodÂ’s steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or addicted to wine or violent or greedy for gain; 8but he must be hospitable, a lover of goodness, prudent, upright, devout, and self-controlled. 9He must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it.
Paul goes on to describe the office of the Bishop - Steward of God.
Steward means to be a representative. In Scripture, the Apostles were appointed to be Christ's Steward when Christ gave Peter the Keys. As a result, Paul was illustrating that the Bishop's role is similiar to the Apostle's role. This is where Apostolic Succession comes in.Acts 20
Bishops are mentioned as being shepherds of the flock. This too was the role of the Apostles whom Christ called to be Sheperds. This again shows that the role of the Bishops is similiar to the roles of the Apostles.
Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you Bishops, 6 in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood.
Eventually, the role of the Bishop lies in its Apostolic Duties, Teaching and Temporal Matters within the Church admin.
Inevitably, it was only around the 2th century when the distinction between priests and bishops became clear through the various Ignatius's epistles. -
But you are using similarity of role to argue continuity of role.Originally posted by vadermanu89:Bishops are mentioned as being shepherds of the flock. This too was the role of the Apostles whom Christ called to be Sheperds. This again shows that the role of the Bishops is similiar to the roles of the Apostles.
isn't this .. dangerous?
maybe elders/bishops are only shepherds of their *own* flock. -
It wouldn't be dangerous since the Anglican/Catholic/Orthodox/Oriental Churches taught Apostolic Succession. This means that the Bishops not only possese the similiar Apostolic office but they also continue to succeed the Apostle and their successors in turn do the same. So in some sense it is a continued role of similarity (if that made sense).Originally posted by Icemoon:But you are using similarity of role to argue continuity of role.
isn't this .. dangerous?
maybe elders/bishops are only shepherds of their *own* flock.
Apostles - Sheperds, Stewards, forgiveness of sins
Elders/Priests - Presided over Communion, teaching,
Bishop - Oversee elders, Sheperds, Stewards, forgive sins.
Deacons -
In Apostle Paul's day, the role of elders and bishops were conflated. Hence bishops overseeing the elders do not make sense.Originally posted by vadermanu89:Apostles - Sheperds, Stewards, forgiveness of sins
Elders/Priests - Presided over Communion, teaching,
Bishop - Oversee elders, Sheperds, Stewards, forgive sins.
Deacons -
As the apostles began to pass from the scene, they appointed certain non-apostles-e.g., Timothy, Titus, Mark, Philip, and Apollos-to oversee multiple local congregations and to appoint and discipline individual presbyters within them. Since they oversee only a single and individual congregation/region, they are technically the first bishops. Within this congregation, they have enouh authority to do the following -Originally posted by Icemoon:In Apostle Paul's day, the role of elders and bishops were conflated. Hence bishops overseeing the elders do not make sense.
i) Appoint priests within a local congregationTitus 1:5
ii) Discipline, judge and remove Priests
For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you1 Tim 5:19-20
Naturally the distinction between bishops and priests or the three-fold office only came into being through Ignatius Epistles.
Do not accept an accusation against a presbyter unless it is supported by two or three witnesses. Reprimand publicly those who do sin, so that the rest also will be afraid.
Ignatius:"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God.
I personally feel that a one century development of the three-fold office pales in comparision to the 3 century development of the NT Canon haha!