Regarding Closure of Eternal Hope
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none of us here claim to be trained theologians. To compound this issue, our work committments have made long intense discussion difficult. Moreover, the purpose of this forum has long been stated. And if Sillyme feels that the forum has deviated from the original purpose, it's within his rights to close it.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The problem as I see it is that the people "defending" the faith are not up to the task.
To side track, at times, it's difficult to find middle ground in our discussions. Especially if both parties are myopic and refuse to try and understand what the other party is saying. -
A long, long time ago...
It is always sad when things close down...
I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile.
And I knew if I had my chance
That I could make those people dance
And, maybe, theyd be happy for a while.
But february made me shiver
With every paper Id deliver.
Bad news on the doorstep;
I couldnt take one more step.
I cant remember if I cried
When I read about his widowed bride,
But something touched me deep inside
The day the music died.
So bye-bye, miss american pie.
Drove my chevy to the levee,
But the levee was dry.
And them good old boys were drinkin whiskey and rye
Singin, this'll be the day that I die.
This'll be the day that I die. -
It is not a matter of being trained in theology. Faith is personal. Nobody can argue against personal faith.Originally posted by ben1xy:none of us here claim to be trained theologians. To compound this issue, our work committments have made long intense discussion difficult. Moreover, the purpose of this forum has long been stated. And if Sillyme feels that the forum has deviated from the original purpose, it's within his rights to close it.
To side track, at times, it's difficult to find middle ground in our discussions. Especially if both parties are myopic and refuse to try and understand what the other party is saying.
Theology can actually interfere with personal faith.
When I say, that the Christians are not up to the task of defending their faith, this is what I mean. That they do not understand the most basic premise of the Christan faith. That it is personal.
Instead they get carried away with the debates and the "theology" if you like.
It is like love. What reasons are you going to come up with why you love someone? It is personal! It might be stupid to love that particular person but I love him/her and so, what are you going to do about it. I know I love him/her and you can talk until the cow comes home I will still love her! It is a personal matter!
There is no need to argue and debate over why you love someone.
Similarly, in matters of Faith, if you fall into the trap of arguing and debating with people over your faith, you will lose, just as you will lose if you try to argue and debate with someone why you should or should not love someone.
Everything else in life, like work, career, relationships (how to of relationships) you debate and analyse, but not in matter of faith and matters of love.
The very act of closing this forum shows that some of the people here do not understand the most basic premise of faith. That it is a personal matter.
If you understand that you can laugh at the "nonsense" debates.
So you can read and look with amusement the debates (for or against) in this forum and declare: "It is personal! I know I love him/her and you can talk until the cow comes home I will still love her! It is a personal matter!" -
So, you can actually debate and enjoy it, and laugh about it and tell people, "yah you are right, it is silly issn't it? It is silly for me to believe issn't it? That is a good point you have made. I shouldn't believe, since I accept what you say makes sense, but I do! It is a personal matter."
You can put in all the effort into the debate and you can don't care if you win or lose the debate because you can always fall back on, "hahaha I am so silly to believe, but I do!"
People can give you one hundred and one reasons why you should not love someone and you can debate with them and lose and say "You are right, I shouldn't love that person. You have shown brilliantly and I agree with you why I shouldn't love that person. But should I stop loving that person because you have argued brilliantly, and I have accept your arguments why I should not love that person? Over my dead body." -
This then is the epitome of having a religion. This is where people draws their strenght. This is where suicide bombers get their power. You too can have the power and strenght that you see in suicide bombers, but for you, when you have the power and the strength, you use it for good instead of evil.
All good and evil comes from FAITH.
This is why I have no qualms trying to debate as brilliantly as I possibly can to argue why you shouldn't believe.
You might think that I am putting down your faith, hellooooooo, I am trying to build it up... I want you to confront why exactly you believe, by faith! Not by logic, not by evidence, not by rational thinking, by FAITH. -
Must you project such a skewed view unto sillyme? We have tried to explain that part of the reasons for closure is the lack of time. If we want to keep a forum running, we have to be responsible and make sure that other Christians do not stumble, or that degradatory statements are not made, or that proper respect is given to all religions. However, if the moderators can no longer upkeep this, it might be better to close the forum. It's not about misunderstanding the premise of our faith. And i do not think it is appropriate to assume too.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:It is not a matter of being trained in theology. Faith is personal. Nobody can argue against personal faith.
Theology can actually interfere with personal faith.
When I say, that the Christians are not up to the task of defending their faith, this is what I mean. That they do not understand the most basic premise of the Christan faith. That it is [b]personal.
Instead they get carried away with the debates and the "theology" if you like.
[/b][/quote]
I think you've misunderstood the Christians here. Most of us here place emphasis on personal faith.
However, during discussions, we're force to discuss religion empirically. This complicates or hinders some aspects of the discussion. I mean, how does a person adopt a positivist epistemological stance to discuss faith? And when discussion doesn't proceed in a positivist manner, antagonist say that Christians are deluded? It epitomises the flatland analogy problem.
[quote]Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Similarly, in matters of Faith, if you fall into the trap of arguing and debating with people over your faith, you will lose, just as you will lose if you try to argue and debate with someone why you should or should not love someone.
Everything else in life, like work, career, relationships (how to of relationships) you debate and analyse, but not in matter of faith and matters of love.
The very act of closing this forum shows that some of the people here do not understand the most basic premise of faith. That it is a personal matter.
With all that being said, the decision on what happens to the forum still lies with Sillyme. -
I concur with most of the points you mentioned. But what happens when someone less mature in his faith stumbles. Who then will be accountable?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:So, you can actually debate and enjoy it, and laugh about it and tell people, "yah you are right, it is silly issn't it? It is silly for me to believe issn't it? That is a good point you have made. I shouldn't believe, since I accept what you say makes sense, but I do! It is a personal matter."
You can put in all the effort into the debate and you can don't care if you win or lose the debate because you can always fall back on, "hahaha I am so silly to believe, but I do!"
People can give you one hundred and one reasons why you should not love someone and you can debate with them and lose and say "You are right, I shouldn't love that person. You have shown brilliantly and I agree with you why I shouldn't love that person. But should I stop loving that person because you have argued brilliantly, and I have accept your arguments why I should not love that person? Over my dead body." -
If that is your purpose, i applaud you. However, every individual is unique and your might work for some but not others. Some people like the stick, some prefer the carrot, no?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:This then is the epitome of having a religion. This is where people draws their strenght. This is where suicide bombers get their power. You too can have the power and strenght that you see in suicide bombers, but for you, when you have the power and the strength, you use it for good instead of evil.
All good and evil comes from FAITH.
This is why I have no qualms trying to debate as brilliantly as I possibly can to argue why you shouldn't believe.
You might think that I am putting down your faith, hellooooooo, I am trying to build it up... I want you to confront why exactly you believe, by faith! Not by logic, not by evidence, not by rational thinking, by FAITH. -
A statement that lacks faith... you certainly are not accountable, ultimately.Originally posted by ben1xy:I concur with most of the points you mentioned. But what happens when someone less mature in his faith stumbles. Who then will be accountable? -
It is almost tantamount to saying, "Let's destroy this universe because there is evil in it."
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Did you write the book of love,
And do you have faith in God above,
If the Bible tells you so?
Do you believe in rock n roll,
Can music save your mortal soul,
And can you teach me how to dance real slow?
Well, I know that youre in love with him
`cause I saw you dancin in the gym.
You both kicked off your shoes.
Man, I dig those rhythm and blues.
I was a lonely teenage broncin buck
With a pink carnation and a pickup truck,
But I knew I was out of luck
The day the music died. -
.... what about when I say I believe in God, it's faith, and you start to call me delusional.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:It is not a matter of being trained in theology. Faith is personal. Nobody can argue against personal faith.
It is not. It's about ending something that one has started because it's is his right to do so.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:It is almost tantamount to saying, "Let's destroy this universe because there is evil in it."
As someone has already said, another person can start another Christian forum. -
Whether I, CE, personally believe that EH should be closed or not is not the issue.
The issue is the owner of this forum has decided that there is really no purpose for him to continue with this forum. It is a decision that only he can make.
All I ask is for all of you to respect that decision. Nonetheless it seems that there is a certain amount of concern that there will NOT be another good Christian forum to bash.
The issue is NEVER about winning or loosing an argument, the issue is about while there will always be differences, let's not call names or mud sling, this is something that a person like TGE will not do.
I've always say let's agree to disagree. If anyone thinks that EH is made up of bigotted individuals, ok, make that point and move on. No need to repeat.
Also to those who think that those who merely believe in faith and are closed minded are delusion, so be it, make that point and move on. Again, no need to repeat all the time.
As can be seen in this thread, the level of intolerance towards Christianity is very high, as such, as Sillyme has said, the good thing is to remove the THORN on the skin of those who dislike Christianity and move on.
EH existed for the purpose of having Christians sharing with each other. Non-Christians are well come to share too, but if incessantly, anti-Christians come in to make potshots at Christians all the time will make coming into EH extremely stressful. Why not just to a neighbourhood church and challenge the pastors no balls?
The methods suggested by some of you does not really work. Sillyme of course can transfer his identity (and password) to someone else (like in the case of AEN), but I don't believe anyone wants this burden. Also Sillyme does not want to exit the forum totally and will want his nick to be his only. -
Let me clarify.
Technically it is not possible to transfer the ownership fully. Believe me not, I have PM-ed Jason about this a long while back.
I do not want to transfer my nick to anyone.
Thanks for all your suggestions.
I am not closing EH because I "lost". There are more important things in life than winning an argument.
I will restate my main reason. My life priorities have changed and I can no longer be effective as a moderator.
Thank you all.