A qn from an atheist
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How did everything start? What convinced you to believe in god?
Because i was thinking.. how did god come about. Many ppl brush it off by saying god has always been there. How?? -
If you can assume that God appeared from nowhere and out of nothing, there is no reason you cannot assume that the universe appeared from nowhere and out of nothing...
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The key difference between the two positions is that while there is ample evidence of the existence of the universe, there is no evidence of God/a god.
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they just assume
everything they do not understand, they just put it into god.
then they say god act in mysterious ways.
then in the end they still don't know the answer but yet in a way it seem to have answered the original question. They just push the question up one level
Just an example
How is the universe created ?
A christian answer is "god created it"
How does god created it ?
A christian answer is "god works in mysterious way/god way is much higher than men" or something similar because no one know how the univese is created
Does it answer the original question ? -
Yet I will not go so far as to tell people to simply junk their religious beliefs because there are just too many people without the ability to think properly.
There are people that refuse to work their gray matter and there are those that are just plain mad.
These people need their religion.
Then there are those that are smart and realize that many people need religion and they either capitalize on it for their own good or they spread the religion so that those that need it, can have it.
Trying to evangelize in a public forum will fail because there will be so many to point out the fallacy of the arguments. -
anything that cannot be explained in science or anything else, they push to god, this is god wrath/doing/will blah blah blah.. If they don't like what you doing and have no good reason, they like to "you'll face god's wrath if you continue", "this is god's will, nothing you do can stop it".
This is my biased opinion, too many of my christian friends like to use their god to put me down. Sick and tired of such comments. -
Just take it that they are stupid lor... scolding people based on their own assumptions and beliefs instead of basing it on evidence and logic...
Instead of getting angry just go
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and if you are really smart, you can take advantage of such people...
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can teach?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:and if you are really smart, you can take advantage of such people... 
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You must know what ideals they are supposed to aspire to... and every time you want them to do something for you and they disagree, just tell them, "Call yourself a Christian!"
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of course you cannot use the same words "Call yourself a Christian" over and over again... you can also say, "Why are you like that?" hehehe their conscience will eat at them...
Use your imagination! -
Example:
"Can I borrow $10 from you?"
"No"
"Call yourself a Christian"
"But I got only $5/-"
"OK $5/- also can" -
If they ask you back for the money tell them:
"Sorry I got no money, can I borrow another $10 from you?"
"No"
"Why are you like that?"
"I don't have $10 to lend you"
"Wah lao surely you have some money to lend me right? How much can you lend me?"
"$2/-"
"OK $2/- also can"
Those Christian that do not ask you to go to church one hor, not so on one lah, those that alwasy ask you one hor, are very on one and you can do this to them until they dare not ask you to go to church anymore.
Otherwise when they ask you to go to church, ask them back,
"Can I borrow $10 from you?" -
To the Mods, just joking only ah... don't take is so seriously ah... ah bo people will say, "Christian like that one ah?"
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Dont typically hang ard here very often but thought this topic was rather interesting. In the end, what i present is merely my own thoughts, not that of the entire Christian community. So i hope all take this onboard and conduct this chat amicably.
God is the uncaused being. Genesis (in the bible) puts it, "In the beginning, God..."
Perhaps the question to ask for us believers is "beginning of what?" If God is uncaused, does he have a beginning? Shan't go too far, but i would say beginning of mankind's perception of time.
And of course, God refers to Himself as "I AM who I AM", meaning He doesnt need a reason for existence outside of Himself, whereas all of the other creation does.
The very definition of GOd itself negates the need to explain how He came about.
Of course, as a non believer, I dont intend to force the authority of the bible upon u. But I wonder why you (not other people, just you) do not moderate your stance a bit? Even Richard Dawkins dare not say for certain there is NO God, he maintains that the evidence remains inconclusive, thus labelling himself an agnostic.
THere is an argument that atheism itself is a faith. As such, there really is no system of belief that doesnt involve the concept of faith. While there is a burden of proof upon the Christians to show that God does exist, I think that there is the same burden of proof upon the faith-based atheistic system to show that God doesnt exist. -
its the calling.
u can do wad u enjoy or love, but when God appears into ur life, it just happened.
so many things happened to me, in my life, but when God calls upon me, i surrender.
everything is planned la, wadever happened, happen for a reason.
hard to explain unless u experienced it. -
God is the uncaused being. Genesis (in the bible) puts it, "In the beginning, God..."
Actually there is an unfair assumption u made in reference to god. U assume everything to have a reason for existence (why must everything have a reason for existence ?) but do not give such a criteria for god. Just put it tis way, if u can believe god do not need to be created or need a reason to exist, why don't u just bring tis down one level to the universe, and tat it do not need to be created or a reason or it to exist. I hope u see tat u r just, again pushing up all the questions up one level
Perhaps the question to ask for us believers is "beginning of what?" If God is uncaused, does he have a beginning? Shan't go too far, but i would say beginning of mankind's perception of time.
And of course, God refers to Himself as "I AM who I AM", meaning He doesnt need a reason for existence outside of Himself, whereas all of the other creation does.
The very definition of GOd itself negates the need to explain how He came about.Of course, as a non believer, I dont intend to force the authority of the bible upon u. But I wonder why you (not other people, just you) do not moderate your stance a bit? Even Richard Dawkins dare not say for certain there is NO God, he maintains that the evidence remains inconclusive, thus labelling himself an agnostic.
The thing is, I will believe if god give me evidence to believe. Otherwise it is just an assumption tat he exists. Because of assumptions, tat is why there can be a few hundred religions in tis world. Can we believe all of them ? Neither has more evidences, or sounds more logical over the others. It is really just guessing and peer influencesTHere is an argument that atheism itself is a faith. As such, there really is no system of belief that doesnt involve the concept of faith. While there is a burden of proof upon the Christians to show that God does exist, I think that there is the same burden of proof upon the faith-based atheistic system to show that God doesnt exist.
If u wanna make a claim, obviously u have to prove it and not the other party to prove it otherwise. i have mentioned tis probably a few hundred times before. Tis is because claims is cheap.
I can claim tat there r invisible unicorn on the planet. Can u prove me otherwise ? Nope. Then it is true ? Can u prove Star war to be false, tat is some galaxy far far away got a Luke Skywalker ? U can't too. So Star War is a true story ? Can u prove Ju On never exist ? Tat is some ghost tat kill all the people who knew of its existence ? U can't too. Then a lot of science fiction and nonsense becomes true.
I hope u realise why the burden of proving have to lie on the person making the claim and not others to prove him wrong. -
No one can tell you how God came into existence. He is the beginning.
Many people have their reasons to believe in God. As I have mentioned, I chose to believe in God because I am able to experience His forgiveness. Secondly, I am able to experience His Word changing my life.
To those who want to participate in this thread, please state your personal beliefs first. The threadstarter is asking for the views of Christians. If you are not, then state it first. This will prevent confusion. -
I always find it strange that a religious person is completely able to accept that God did not need to be created but everything else needs to be.
God is the uncaused being. Genesis (in the bible) puts it, "In the beginning, God..."
Perhaps the question to ask for us believers is "beginning of what?" If God is uncaused, does he have a beginning? Shan't go too far, but i would say beginning of mankind's perception of time.
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Good points. Lemme try to answer them to the best of my knowledge.
The atheist as well as the believer are both making a claim from their respective stance, hence both have the burden of proof upon themselves, not just the believer. The believer says that God exists, the atheist says that he does not. Both are effectively making a claim.
I cannot disprove the existence of an invisible unicorn (or etc) in your mind, but bear in mind that there are people who have illusions of such and more, and we normally put them in asylums.
Of course the fact that MASSES of people believe in a religion doesnt make it more justified than that of the other viewpoint, but pls bear in mind that Science is also flawed in this aspect.
Science hasnt disproved the existence of star wars, or Ju On, or Luke Skywalker or whatsoever, neither does the Word of God, and i only dare say it remains inconclusive, bordering on unbelief for me. But let us bring the argument back to what we DO perceive and can know about. That of God, Science and creation.
Have you ever seen evolution happening? Or is it deduced? Have you ever seen the Big Bang or is it just the result of immense calculation or computer modeling? My point is that science itself cannot adequately explain or conclusively affirm a certain fact. What is scientifically proven one day, can be disproved the very next, and we've seen many examples of that. In my memory, the Piltdown Hoax is one.
Bertrand Russell once asked if he meets God after death, what would he say? He replied smugly, "Not enough evidence, God. Not enough evidence." Of course, he should have gotten his answer by now.
I cannot give you all the evidence in the world, even i am still looking for them. But i remain open and i review literature from both sides of the story, and i invite you to do the same.
It is true that there are many religions in the world, due to man's wilful interpretations and creativity? But as far as i know, only ONE has said that He is God, and He is the only way to God and eternal life. That of Jesus Christ. No other major religion has made that claim.
But if you want more evidences and argument about Christianity, we can talk until the cows come home. But in the meantime, if you're open, you can read from Lee Strobel (The Case for Faith, and his other stuff), Ravi Zacharias (The real face of atheism) , Allister MacGrath (The Twilight of atheism)
THese are Christian authors, from the other perspective you can read into Richard Dawkins (The God delusion: for the response to this: pls refer to Alvin Plantinga's response - http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2007/002/1.21.html) , Bertrand Russell.
B4 u say im skewed in my reading, i admit it is. Cos i'm a believer after all, but if you can recommend me some stuff from ur perspective, great.
About the reason for existence part, i'm not really understanding u. Say i push all the qns up one level then. So the universe came to exist by itself? But God is still another level higher. Which definition is greater? The universe or God? I did give a criteria for His existence, which was Himself. The uncaused cause.
And why doesnt everything have a reason for existence? Everything serves a purpose right? Can you say that something is just there without reason? Like what?
While we're on this topic, can i ask you in your atheistic beliefs, how does the concept of morality come about? How do we determine whats right or wrong? -
TS, you're asking if god exists or has a beginning (stg like that). I assume u mean the God of Protestant Christians, of which i count myself as. Trinitarian, omniscient, omnipotent, and can only be known thru Jesus Christ. Not thru ourselves, or can be "found" everywhere - that would be new ageism and animism.
I'm not a religious scholar or theology student, but these are just somethings that interest me and have made me evaluate my faith. I believe that Christianity as a belief system can withstand the most intellectually rigorous examination. Of course, i'm just an acolyte in this area, and i dare not say i know much. But if you put God in the centre of everything, i believe it will be a good fit.
God cannot be created nor destroyed. Then we might as well worship the one who created God, and find another name for it. But your point being? As i've said, God is uncaused. He is sufficient in and of Himself. -
The atheist as well as the believer are both making a claim from their respective stance, hence both have the burden of proof upon themselves, not just the believer. The believer says that God exists, the atheist says that he does not. Both are effectively making a claim.
There is a difference between the two. Christian claim there is a god. It is not something tat can be seen or observed from a general point of view. It is something out of the ordinary. U cannot say tat non believer also made a claim in tis case. It is because they did not assert a fact which is not observed, unlike the christian. Just remember the unicorn example. I claim something out of the ordinary and have to prove it. The others r not claiming anything which is out of the norm.I cannot disprove the existence of an invisible unicorn (or etc) in your mind, but bear in mind that there are people who have illusions of such and more, and we normally put them in asylums.
To be frank a lot of people who claim they see god or god talking to them r in asylums tooHave you ever seen evolution happening? Or is it deduced? Have you ever seen the Big Bang or is it just the result of immense calculation or computer modeling? My point is that science itself cannot adequately explain or conclusively affirm a certain fact. What is scientifically proven one day, can be disproved the very next, and we've seen many examples of that. In my memory, the Piltdown Hoax is one
Evolution is a fact. It leaves tons of evidences tat points to it being true. Not only tat NO evidence ever point evolution to be wrong. Big bang is also believed to be true because there r many evidences tat points to its existence. It is not as virgourous as evolution though and it can be proven to be wrong, or in another form.
U can say tat science has proven one day being proven to be wrong the next but take note most of them have not reached maturity as well as scientific fact tat has not been conclusive. The more established scientific theories and laws which had undergone many scrutinies over time r seldom shown to be wrong.
The piltdown hoax is proven to be wrong by science itself because it is naturally able to weed out lies and hoax. If someone sometime add a line into the bible on its own, can it be detected ? Nope.It is true that there are many religions in the world, due to man's wilful interpretations and creativity? But as far as i know, only ONE has said that He is God, and He is the only way to God and eternal life. That of Jesus Christ. No other major religion has made that claim.
How do u know your religion is not due to man wilful interpretation and creativity ? The bible claims and u simply believe ? According to icemoon islam claim jesus is just a prophet. Since it made such a claim then it is true ? Buddhist also claims deities and god belong to just a realm, and it is not the highest realm. Then just because it made tat claim then it is true ?
I think believing just because it claims boastfully is not a strong point for believing in itAbout the reason for existence part, i'm not really understanding u. Say i push all the qns up one level then. So the universe came to exist by itself? But God is still another level higher. Which definition is greater? The universe or God? I did give a criteria for His existence, which was Himself. The uncaused cause.
U see, if the universe can exist by itself, why is there a need to force god into the picture ? No god is needed then and there is no level higher.
If u wanna give a criteria for god, I can also give a criteria for universe which is the "uncaused cause". If u believe everything have to be "caused", then tat everything have to include god too. If u believe tat something can be "uncaused" then tat thing can very well be the universe.
Then everything remains unanswered. Wat is the difference when u say "god is the uncaused cause" from saying "god way is higher than men and we do not knew" -
or... like this... God was created by a being called God which in turn was created by another being called God and so on and so fore.... They are in term called God.
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Ok I'm not saying the Big Bang didn't happen but tell me where did the Big Bang come from?
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maybe the answer is the same as where did god come from