Some mega churches affect students adversely
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and before this, I feel a balanced view of the situation need to be establish first.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:the whole point is to come to a win win situation
how are these solutions going to achieve that?
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The Bar Mitzvah is traditionally set at 12 or 13 (depending on your gender).Originally posted by dumbdumb!:if i am not wrong, in the jewish culture. you're already considered a man, and can make your own decisions at a certain age. i think what 16?"Bar Mitzvah" literally means "son of the commandment." "Bar" is "son" in Aramaic, which used to be the vernacular of the Jewish people. "Mitzvah" is "commandment" in both Hebrew and Aramaic. "Bat" is daughter in Hebrew and Aramaic. (The Ashkenazic pronunciation is "bas"). Technically, the term refers to the child who is coming of age, and it is strictly correct to refer to someone as "becoming a bar (or bat) mitzvah." However, the term is more commonly used to refer to the coming of age ceremony itself, and you are more likely to hear that someone is "having a bar mitzvah."
Under Jewish Law, children are not obligated to observe the commandments, although they are encouraged to do so as much as possible to learn the obligations they will have as adults. At the age of 13 (12 for girls), children become obligated to observe the commandments. The bar mitzvah ceremony formally marks the assumption of that obligation, along with the corresponding right to take part in leading religious services, to count in a minyan (the minimum number of people needed to perform certain parts of religious services), to form binding contracts, to testify before religious courts and to marry. -
that's why i say not to be SO devoted
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then they should preach it and not hide/ignore the problem and tell the youths that if their parents object, please don't come to church.
i emphasize this a lot when i was teaching sunday school: what i teach in class is merely based on my interpretation, if these children's parents feel otherwise about any issue, there is NO conflict, accept their parents' opinion as the finality. -
The situation is quite clear to us.Originally posted by vince69:and before this, I feel a balanced view of the situation need to be establish first.
The gist:My friends and I have loved ones whose lives and attitude have changed after they joined these churches. They lose interest in schoolwork to the point of academic failure. Family time is curtailed drastically, and they stop attending family functions. Parental objections are ignored, family squabbles ensue and family harmony is disrupted. It's heartbreaking. It is like we have lost our children.
1. Academic issue: lose interest in schoolwork to the point of academic failure.
2. Family issue: Stop attending family functions, harmony disrupted.
The onus falls on the church to give a balanced view. How do they balance 1 and 2 with church activities? Like someone said, it is easy to pay lip service. The church officially claim to honour and obey your parents, but if a conflict arises, how are they to handle the issue?
It doesnt' help that some churches give out mixed message. They preach that cell group is a doctrine, going for service is a doctrine, paying tithes (the more the merrier) is a doctrine etc. However these are the activities that are dividing the family and the christian child.
wahah .. i feel so honored to be able to paraphrase unker eng's words of wisdom. -
thanks icemoon, i'll use this to describe my experience in one of those charismatic churches, but it wasn't the 3 mega churches.Originally posted by Icemoon:1. Academic issue: lose interest in schoolwork to the point of academic failure.
2. Family issue: Stop attending family functions, harmony disrupted.
The onus falls on the church to give a balanced view. How do they balance 1 and 2 with church activities? Like someone said, it is easy to pay lip service. The church officially claim to honour and obey your parents, but if a conflict arises, how are they to handle the issue?
It doesnt' help that some churches give out mixed message. They preach that cell group is a doctrine, going for service is a doctrine, paying tithes (the more the merrier) is a doctrine etc. However these are the activities that are dividing the family and the christian child.
wahah .. i feel so honored to be able to paraphrase unker eng's words of wisdom.
when i was in poly, i was in this church, they really emphasis alot of activity, and made it an unwritten rule for you to attend. you'll feel like you're disappointing God and everyone if you skipped a meeting and stuff, but since everyone is doing it, its very natural for me to want to go as well.
i don't think i lost interest in schoolwork, just that, the amount of time i spent on it was very little. imagine, weekday i hv like one cg meeting, then saturday service, then maybe got 2 or 3 days some evangelistic events etc. plus one day meeting my sheperd.
and about the family function etc, of course i can go family function, they nv stop or wat la. but if there's a clash, i have to choose lor. abit the peer pressure here. like i remember they held a chinese reunion dinner, which also occurred on my actual family reunion dinner, so i chose to go my family dinner lor. i think they were abit disappointed.
and since saturday is service, i'll naturally be out until rather late. very obvious non believer parents will not understand and feel angry about it. christian parents also sometimes make noise when their kids have to attend cell groups or meeting their mentors etc.
this was what i experienced myself la. i think ultimately it was alright, because this drove my parents to find out more about christianity, and they found God.
I posted my testimony about my family's salvation here before.
*while i'm typing this, my mum's singing her own out-of-tune version of "In spirit and in truth" I think.* -
I'm not sure how individual churches handle new converts to the faith.
What I mean is, I know some churches give out "New Believer" packs that introduce the new believers to their faith. (I remember after the altar call at New Creation, those who went forward will receive something like that)
How about adding something extra for young believers? For example, there should be a point of contact between the parent and the church. If the parent has any issue, can bring it up to the contact.
'cos most children and cell group leaders cannot handle the barrage of questions from the parents once the conversion to the new faith, or their attendence in church, is discovered -
i received that when i was in my ex church.Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm not sure how individual churches handle new converts to the faith.
What I mean is, I know some churches give out "New Believer" packs that introduce the new believers to their faith. (I remember after the altar call at New Creation, those who went forward will receive something like that)
How about adding something extra for young believers? For example, there should be a point of contact between the parent and the church. If the parent has any issue, can bring it up to the contact.
'cos most children and cell group leaders cannot handle the barrage of questions from the parents once the conversion to the new faith, or their attendence in church, is discovered
when my parents converted (in the new church we are attending), they met up with the cell leader lor, and they had a meeting every friday, like bible study and sharing. -
so funny siah .. now they more devoted than you ah?Originally posted by dumbdumb!:*while i'm typing this, my mum's singing her own out-of-tune version of "In spirit and in truth" I think.*
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ya. hahah! so embarrassedOriginally posted by Icemoon:so funny siah .. now they more devoted than you ah? 
imagine leh, last time they wanted to throw me out of the house and stuff. what a change
in my dad's ex cell leader's words "taking off like an aeroplane" -
First of all, thank you dumbdumb for that candid testimony and the sharing of the funny moment
I think it's a good suggestion. But sometimes I think the new convert find questioning and objections by parents or concerned parties as "persecutions" as popularly preached. So in the end they keep them in the dark and develop a defense mechanism.Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm not sure how individual churches handle new converts to the faith.
What I mean is, I know some churches give out "New Believer" packs that introduce the new believers to their faith. (I remember after the altar call at New Creation, those who went forward will receive something like that)
How about adding something extra for young believers? For example, there should be a point of contact between the parent and the church. If the parent has any issue, can bring it up to the contact.
'cos most children and cell group leaders cannot handle the barrage of questions from the parents once the conversion to the new faith, or their attendence in church, is discovered
I think an open relationship between all parties is important. And I think dumbdumb handled his situation well. -
well, that was the past.. 4 years ago.
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I think this is somewhere from the New Testament:
"I am here to turn fathers against sons, brothers against brothers..."
Some churches may take the gospel message too literally.... -
SOME CHURCHES may turn to this verse to explain the "persecution" nonetheless, it would be irresponsible to misquote something to justify a situation that is inevidently created by the leadership.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:I think this is somewhere from the New Testament:
"I am here to turn fathers against sons, brothers against brothers..."
Some churches may take the gospel message too literally.... -
i think he said that to prepare his people for such encounters. it is true. if handled properly, it will turn out fine.Originally posted by Chin Eng:SOME CHURCHES may turn to this verse to explain the "persecution" nonetheless, it would be irresponsible to misquote something to justify a situation that is inevidently created by the leadership. -
for youth, I think that will either be the pastor Daniel (youth pastor)Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm not sure how individual churches handle new converts to the faith.
What I mean is, I know some churches give out "New Believer" packs that introduce the new believers to their faith. (I remember after the altar call at New Creation, those who went forward will receive something like that)
How about adding something extra for young believers? For example, there should be a point of contact between the parent and the church. If the parent has any issue, can bring it up to the contact.
'cos most children and cell group leaders cannot handle the barrage of questions from the parents once the conversion to the new faith, or their attendence in church, is discovered
but of course, parents or child have to speak up if want to address any issue lah,.... cannot expect them to know everything, right? -
continue on unker Eng's quotation.... parent or child need to bring these up to the church to work things out....Originally posted by Icemoon:1. Academic issue: lose interest in schoolwork to the point of academic failure.
2. Family issue: Stop attending family functions, harmony disrupted. -
This has been a great discussion so far guys, at least in my opinion it is. Keep it going. One of the few threads that has been a genuine good read.
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I tend to tell my friends (those looking into Christianity or those who are more neutral): "God is not the god of the Church; God is the god of His people." It's funny how some churches "transcend" their role as the Body of Christ to become the Mouth of Christ and spread their interpretations of the gospel, which might have far-reaching implications that might hurt their own Christian brothers and sisters.
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Luckily, my social groups do not involve dumb kids
*siams the flying arrows* -
Originally posted by laurence82:Luckily, my social groups do not involve dumb kids
*siams the flying arrows*
huh??? where??? where???
Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
who never aim properly!! -
but its trueOriginally posted by vince69: huh??? where??? where???
Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
who never aim properly!!
there are a lot of silly young adults or teenagers doing a lot of funny things
whether its joining MLM, bloody chasing celebrities from one mall to another, think joining church is hip and cool etc etc etc
i am proud to say these kind of people are not in my list of people i socialise with regularly
out of sight, out of mind
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My experience as a young person growing up in the Church several years ago was far more positive than negative. To set the context, I am a member of a medium sized Church that, while relatively "rich", cannot be considered a "mega Church".
There is clearly a fundamental disconnect between the parent who presumably is non-Christian, and the young person who is. My view is that there is really very little that one can do to truely reconcile the two without the young person compromising on his/her Faith. This is probably something that a non-Christian will struggle to comprehend, let alone accept.
You can talk about wanting to honour your parents, but to me (and I am by no means a theologian) your primary parent is God. Your Father in Heaven. The one thing that came to me when the discussion moved on to this point of parents versus Faith (for want of a better description) was the following passage from the Book of Matthew:
The Cost of Following Jesus
Matthew 8
18When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake.
19Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go."
20Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
21Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."
22But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
I must stress that I am not a theologian so my interpretation of this is base at best, but to me, that is the very essence of Faith. That you would be willing to turn your back on the things of the world to follow the Kingdom of God. But I would encourage you to read the full scripture to take the meaning in its total context (quite easy to google it, but make sure it's a reputable site!).
I had many friends at Church (when we were younger) who had major difficulties with their families over their decision to become Christians. Some had their relationships with their parents break down to the point of getting thrown out of the house. But very often, what I noticed was that they had issues with their families even before becoming a Christian. I speak generally of course as there were always exceptions. But this is my anecdotal experience. Coming to Church was perhaps the trigger point. In Church, one would learn about the trials and tribulations of Job, and about how the enemy would try to put obstacles in your path when you choose to follow Jesus. Which is perhaps why, to many young minds, the objections of a parent could be seen as a trial of one's (perhaps new found) Faith.
I try not to judge but it's easy to see where both sides are coming from.
While my extended family is by and large from a staunchly Christian tradition, my mother was not. In fact, she was dead set against it, and was perhaps especially angry when my grandfather (her dad) converted on his deathbed. This is perhaps not an unusual experience here in Singapore and if one was objective, I could see the reasons for her anger. What came next was that me, her only child, went to Church and became a Christian. This was something that I had wanted to do for a long time, but did not do till I was 17 because I knew how she would feel. Was she upset? That goes without saying. But I am fortunate in having a supportive family. Sadly perhaps, there is no real happy ending. My mother later passed away and to this day, I remain unsure where her convictions laid even though she came to accept the path I had chosen.
I am now a parent myself to two young children. I will try to bring them up the best way I know how. I know that in time, they will make their own decisions that may not dovetail with my hopes and expectations for them. This would of course include matters of Faith. The only thing I can hope and pray for, is that the path they choose is the one that God has planned for them.
I am by no means a good Christian and I have as many flaws as the next person, probably more. But in my heart of hearts, I know to whom I belong. I know what my Faith tells me, and I know how this journey will end. -
mega churches..hmm back in jesus time..he went into a very magnificient temple and threw out everyone of them saying they have tainted his Father's temple..if jesus comes vistitng again now..history will definately repeat itself...mega churches..yeah right..
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Have you been to the Vatican?Originally posted by domonkassyu:mega churches..hmm back in jesus time..he went into a very magnificient temple and threw out everyone of them saying they have tainted his Father's temple..if jesus comes vistitng again now..history will definately repeat itself...mega churches..yeah right..