DISCUSSION: Creation of Man
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I'm starting this new thread to discuss the creation of Man. One of the motivating factors for starting this thread is that I believe, that only by understanding Man, his Creation and his Purpose, can we more fully understand God, Heaven and Hell.
Only discussions are encouraged here. Those who wish only to "prove" themselves correct and all-understanding are encouraged to go elsewhere. I encourage other users to also ignore anyone who chooses to do so, so that we can stick to topic and learn together. This is a thread intended at Christians, so some of the Basic premises are the Bible is infallibly correct. Non-Christians, too, are welcome to join, but I hope, you understand the basic premises. No argument must be made on the premise, because without an established premise there is no use discussing.
This thread is aimed at discussing so that there will be mutual edification.
To get the ball rolling, I'll start with the first of the Discussion points:
Genesis 1 and 2 : The account of the Creation of Man.
Discussion point: The Seven Days of Creation were not physical 24-hour days. The Seventh day has not come and we are living in the Sixth Day. -
In the Genesis story, at least in the first couple of chapters we see the story of creation of the world.
Before we go on further, I hope we can have an understanding of some of the terms I'll be using.
1. Chronos.
This is time as we know it. Sequential. A measure of change.
2. Aevum.
Has been talked about by Greek philosophers. It refers to a point which is above all time. Imagine the entire Chronos concentrated in a dot. Because its not sequential and is concentrated in one place, there is no room for change.
God is not subjected to change, God does not live in a realm that is subject to time. Let us call this realm, the spiritual realm where resides nothing that is corruptible.
It follows that everything that has yet to happen under our understanding of the chronological history of mankind, has already happened in aevum. -
The story of creation is as follows:
(I'm trying to imagine it as how a person set in 1500BC would understand these events. Trying to visualise la :p)
In the beginning, the earth was formless and void. And there was God, sweeping like a divine wind over the "waters"
It would seem that Moses, in his vision, would have been concentrating on the creation of earth. The earth is in the center of his understanding. Hence, he didnt see how the sun was formed, but he would have seen it when the sun shone on earth.
1. Light Created (The Sun?)
2. Waters separated one from the other. Sky made. It seems to me this was the atmosphere and clouds. Technically the clouds are "waters". With the heat of the sun, evaporation would have begun.
Land and Seas. (Polar Caps? - resulted in water concentrating in one point and the crust below to show)
3. Plants (Being at the head of the food chain)
4. Sun and Moon. The sun and the earth reaches its equlibrium position. Seasons are fixed. Moon moves into orbit of earth.
5. Animals. In this order. Water Creatures. Then Birds.
6. Land Animals and Man (in God's image). Mammals eh? Created on the same day.
Man is created in God's image. Made master over all creation on Earth.
7. God Rested.
Note: The sequence of creation is fully compatible with current scientific understanding of the stages of the creation of earth and order of evolution of organisms. Moses saw this back then :p
From a cosmic point of view, to be sure, it has all been completed.
At the end of each day, God says of what he has created as "Good". The Word Good (tòôb, tobe) could possibly be understood as "And it pleased God because it was beautiful and perfect" For what could be "Good" to God, apart from Perfection?
I started this investigation because I didn't see how man could be perfect.
God is, by definition, Perfection. And any creation cannot be as perfect as perfection, else it will be God. But it would seem to me God has a solution to this paradox. -
3. Plants (Being at the head of the food chain)
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How long was a "day"?Originally posted by maven2:Discussion point: The Seven Days of Creation were not physical 24-hour days. The Seventh day has not come and we are living in the Sixth Day. -
At this point I think we need to fast-forward a little to the New Testament, when Jesus tells the Pharisees something very interesting:
John 5:12 When confronted by the Pharisees about doing work on Sabbath:
"My fathers still works till now, and I also work"
But the OT tells us that God rested from all his work. Which led me to believe that the seventh day still has yet to come, in the chronological history of man. When that day comes, all creation will stop work and rest in God's presence. We call it by another name.
Heaven. -
I dont think there was a "time" for the day.Originally posted by Icemoon:How long was a "day"?
God showed Moses how he created the earth. It must have been shown in parts else Moses might still be looking at it today.
Somewhat a movie where they fade to black and out to show the different things that happened over a course of a day. Maybe that's why he calls it evening and day.. hehehe
Each day, in my opinion was a purpose. -
Then can throw your theory out liao la .. 'cos the "time" for the day is every military's "must fight territory".Originally posted by maven2:I dont think there was a "time" for the day.
God showed Moses how he created the earth. It must have been shown in parts else Moses might still be looking at it today.
Somewhat a movie where they fade to black and out to show the different things that happened over a course of a day. Maybe that's why he calls it evening and day.. hehehe
Each day, in my opinion was a purpose.
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I dont know enuf knowledge to discuss here. But then, IMO, i really dont see a purpose in discussing this sort of stuffs.
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No purpose?Originally posted by davidche:I dont know enuf knowledge to discuss here. But then, IMO, i really dont see a purpose in discussing this sort of stuffs.
Hey .. I paid maven an untold sum of money to push the ratings one ok.
And to increase the standard of posts in EH. -
However, in the OT, God also commissions the Sabbath day, saying to Moses:
The Sabbath is first mentioned in Exodus 16:22-23:
"gather twice as much on the sixth day... Tomorrow be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD."
and again in 20:8, when He gives the Commandments, he says:
Remember the Sabbath by keeping it holy (setting is apart).... on it you shall not do any work... For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth.... but rested on the seventh.. therefore the LORD has blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Exodus 23:12:
Six days do your work but on the seventh do not work, so that your ox and your donkey may rest... slaves... sojourners... maybe be refreshed
The next mention comes in 31:14
Where God pronounces that whoever works on the Sabbath must be put to death. He adds on that "It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days.... rested on seventh"
The Sabbath was made as a sign to the Israelites. This was the sign that he was their God. It seems to me also that the Sabbath was made as a day of rest and worship. In Leviticus, we see how the Sabbath day becomes a day of worship.
God ordains the day as a sign, a precursor to what heaven is. In my opinion, so that the Israelites may never lose sight of the eternity promised to them. -
ah? simi military? heh~Originally posted by Icemoon:Then can throw your theory out liao la .. 'cos the "time" for the day is every military's "must fight territory". -
Humour me and see if I've made a glaring mistakeOriginally posted by davidche:I dont know enuf knowledge to discuss here. But then, IMO, i really dont see a purpose in discussing this sort of stuffs. 
Help me la. -
Okay enough for today. Time to go play bowling. I'll carry on tmr
But let there be Discussion. And I hope the discussion is Good :p -
I translating from chinese .. bing jia bi zheng zhi di.Originally posted by maven2:ah? simi military? heh~
Those who want to discuss creation in Genesis, must fight the battle of what constitute a day. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:No purpose?
Hey .. I paid maven an untold sum of money to push the ratings one ok.
And to increase the standard of posts in EH. His post are very informative. -
A good understanding of Genesis 1 MUST take into account the people reading it. Our theory may sound good to people acquainted with modern science, but we are not the only ones reading it!Originally posted by maven2:1. Light Created (The Sun?)
2. Waters separated one from the other. Sky made. It seems to me this was the atmosphere and clouds. Technically the clouds are "waters". With the heat of the sun, evaporation would have begun.
Land and Seas. (Polar Caps? - resulted in water concentrating in one point and the crust below to show)
3. Plants (Being at the head of the food chain)
4. Sun and Moon. The sun and the earth reaches its equlibrium position. Seasons are fixed. Moon moves into orbit of earth.
So who read it as well? The answer - desert nomads thousand years ago. You think those simpletons know what is sun and moon equilibrium meh?
So try to read it like a simpleton.
For example, the first mention of the sun is in day 4. We can argue the sun was already created before that, but it was hidden that's why got sun is as good as no sun.
But if there is no sun (whether hidden or not created yet), then the imagery described will seem weird to the ancients. After all, ancients associate the sun with the phenomenon they experience every day, namely day and night. So if the bible were to describe each day as starting with evening and ending with morning even *before* day 4, then opps!
So is there a deeper meaning to them? Should be, 'cos a literal description of sundown and sunrise just doesn't make sense. And this, the ancients should agree.
While maven thinks God is screening a movie to Moses with powerpoint effects (lol), I tend to agree with Jewish commentators that evening to morning refers to God bringing order to creation.
When the sun sets, your vision is diminished and chaos sets in. When the sun rises, your vision is restored, order sets in. You get the point.
So this kind of imagery, the ancients could understand. So could we, and we have modern science to prove it. Modern science tells us creation is about bringing order to disorder. -
You contradict yourself.Originally posted by maven2:I'm starting this new thread to discuss the creation of Man. One of the motivating factors for starting this thread is that I believe, that only by understanding Man, his Creation and his Purpose, can we more fully understand God, Heaven and Hell.
Only discussions are encouraged here. Those who wish only to "prove" themselves correct and all-understanding are encouraged to go elsewhere. I encourage other users to also ignore anyone who chooses to do so, so that we can stick to topic and learn together. This is a thread intended at Christians, so some of the Basic premises are the Bible is infallibly correct. Non-Christians, too, are welcome to join, but I hope, you understand the basic premises. No argument must be made on the premise, because without an established premise there is no use discussing.
This thread is aimed at discussing so that there will be mutual edification.
Isn't this the exclusive club you have been telling me? -
I'm glad you're participating in this thread!Originally posted by Icemoon:A good understanding of Genesis 1 MUST take into account the people reading it. Our theory may sound good to people acquainted with modern science, but we are not the only ones reading it!
So who read it as well? The answer - desert nomads thousand years ago. You think those simpletons know what is sun and moon equilibrium meh?
So try to read it like a simpleton.
For example, the first mention of the sun is in day 4. We can argue the sun was already created before that, but it was hidden that's why got sun is as good as no sun.
But if there is no sun (whether hidden or not created yet), then the imagery described will seem weird to the ancients. After all, ancients associate the sun with the phenomenon they experience every day, namely day and night. So if the bible were to describe each day as starting with evening and ending with morning even *before* day 4, then opps!
So is there a deeper meaning to them? Should be, 'cos a literal description of sundown and sunrise just doesn't make sense. And this, the ancients should agree.
While maven thinks God is screening a movie to Moses with powerpoint effects (lol), I tend to agree with Jewish commentators that evening to morning refers to God bringing order to creation.
When the sun sets, your vision is diminished and chaos sets in. When the sun rises, your vision is restored, order sets in. You get the point.
So this kind of imagery, the ancients could understand. So could we, and we have modern science to prove it. Modern science tells us creation is about bringing order to disorder.
And eh... my powerpoint effect thing was a joke la :p Acherly hor I intended to talk about the sun on the fourth day one.. but dunno why never come out.
Maybe it happened so that you could put it very nicely the way you did. I should try to Icemoon my words a little.
I'd daresay we all agree to that the 7 days weren't 24-hour days? And the story of creation according to Genesis I pointed more to God bringing order to creation in that sequence. Aye? -
I'll say this only once (more) for those who didn't catch it in the topic.Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:You contradict yourself.
Isn't this the exclusive club you have been telling me?
This is a thread for those who've already accepted the premise, either as truth or as acceptable for a discussion.
We cannot have a discussion on one topic and move foreward if we disagree even on the premises. It's simple facilitation/discussion/debating rules in order to have constructive input.
What I've done is set the tone and order of the discussion, facilitating it. Nothing exclusive about that.
If you do not think this be a discussion for you, you are welcome to ignore this thread completely. Or if you find it pleasurable for reading, we are happy that you like it. Or if you want to start another thread on why discussions should not be facilitated or have established premises, I wish you high ratings.
But please do not disrupt the order of this discussion. Thank you. -
If at anytime we feel that the first discussion point has been satisfactorily discussed and we've come to a general consensus to it, we're free to move on to the second point. I have a set of points in mind, but if at any point of time, anyone feels that we ought to have a related discussion, please feel free to voice it out.
I like the way the discussion is turning out. Keep up the good work -
good topic.... good discussion.Originally posted by maven2:But please do not disrupt the order of this discussion. Thank you.
I will try to enforce it.
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Oh shit .. TGE is here liao .. SIAN 1/2.
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They can be 24 hour days, but this one need a bit of science to explain.Originally posted by maven2:I'd daresay we all agree to that the 7 days weren't 24-hour days? -
I dont think there was a "time" for the day.
God showed Moses how he created the earth. It must have been shown in parts else Moses might still be looking at it today.
Somewhat a movie where they fade to black and out to show the different things that happened over a course of a day. Maybe that's why he calls it evening and day.. hehehe
Each day, in my opinion was a purpose.
"My fathers still works till now, and I also work"
Here is my two cents worth:
The evangelical and dispensational scholars of the Bible have reached a consensus that the word "day" in Genesis refers to a 24 hour period.
If we let the Bible interpret itself, all speculations will be laid aside:
The word "day" in Genesis in Hebrew was also used in Exodus 20. And there in Exodus the word "day" means a literal 24-hour day.
Ex 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
About:
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
God has always been a worker. God created the universe in six days. And there after rested or ceased from His work of Creation. After that He began the work of Sustaining His creation.
When man fell, God then began His redemptive work. Soveriegnly controlling Providence for the Son to come into the world. Now He is still working preserving His redeemed, convicting sinners, saving sinners, sustaining His creation, controlling Providence, doing good to all [evil and good alike].
He is working. A new creation is coming: a new earth, a new heaven where righteousness dwells forever. For one to be a part of that, one must first be a new creature in Christ.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
The word "new" actually means to renew. And that entails work.