Disgruntled ex-christians who lose faith + some thoughts..
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Let me try to re-explain it again:Originally posted by laoda99:I saw ur reply to icemoon liao.
Actually, I can see no contradiction. God of coz, wants everyone to be saved. But, will everyone get saved? Paul explains it quite clearly:
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed
to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brothers. (Rom 8:29)
As for the verses u quote, I cannot really see how it contradicts predestination. On the contrary, I can give u many verses which the bible supports predestination.
We must understand that it is God who draws us close to him so that we believe.
Think we have to read to find out more.
If God wants everyone to be saved right, he can force his Will on everyone. Man will not be able to resist that right?
unless: God wants to save everyone but is not willing?
Let's see this verse again:
in Mtthew 23, we have 37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
The last part, it seems that people can be unwilling to be gathered by God.
Anyway, i understand that it is God who draws us close to him so that we believe.
However, approaching this from a Free Will argument, Man can reject God. And the consequence of that ... well let's not go there.
Sad to say, my understanding of Calvinism is shallow and i may have misunderstood the points that equivocates -
Let's see
my understanding is that God wants to save everyone, but not everyone can be saved. If God wants to, he can impose his will on that person...like Jonah....Moses.....etc etc.
Man's depravity is such that they are not willing to be saved by God, that is correct.
My understanding of calvinism is shallow, but I am still reading up.Originally posted by ben1xy:Let me try to re-explain it again:
If God wants everyone to be saved right, he can force his Will on everyone. Man will not be able to resist that right?
unless: God wants to save everyone but is not willing?
Let's see this verse again:
in Mtthew 23, we have 37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
The last part, it seems that people can be unwilling to be gathered by God.
Anyway, i understand that it is God who draws us close to him so that we believe.
However, approaching this from a Free Will argument, Man can reject God. And the consequence of that ... well let's not go there.
Sad to say, my understanding of Calvinism is shallow and i may have misunderstood the points that equivocates -
Then let me dwell deeper a little. Why is it that some can be saved and others not?Originally posted by laoda99:Let's see
my understanding is that God wants to save everyone, but not everyone can be saved. If God wants to, he can impose his will on that person...like Jonah....Moses.....etc etc.
I am playing towards the sovereignity of God arguement here -
let me put in a twist ... why some people want to receive the salvation from God, others don't want?Originally posted by ben1xy:Then let me dwell deeper a little. Why is it that some can be saved and others not?
I am playing towards the sovereignity of God arguement here
is it that the gospel is so simple, the receiving of salvation is so plain and simple ... that people cannot take it? as in ... sure or not, how can be so simple? any hidden charges or motive or not hah????
like today, someone from the bank called me up, the first statement from him is,'congratuation, you have been selected for this special promotion'... my first reaction is 'what's the catch? where got free meal one..'
imagine... if I will to called my daughter and tell her I am going to buy her a toy, and her reply is... 'what's the catch?'
does says alot of how much she believe I love her, does it? 
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I guess i am skewed in my outlook at this, as predestination seems to put the human freewill to a peripheral role. In that case, many of my old arguments would not hold through, esp. in my understanding of theodicy. I cannot see how it can co-exist with such a doctrineOriginally posted by vince69:let me put in a twist ... why some people want to receive the salvation from God, others don't want?
is it that the gospel is so simple, the receiving of salvation is so plain and simple ... that people cannot take it? as in ... sure or not, how can be so simple? any hidden charges or motive or not hah????
like today, someone from the bank called me up, the first statement from him is,'congratuation, you have been selected for this special promotion'... my first reaction is 'what's the catch? where got free meal one..'
imagine... if I will to called my daughter and tell her I am going to buy her a toy, and her reply is... 'what's the catch?' does says alot of how much she believe I love her, does it? -
Can add in another perspective? It may be an overly simplistic view.
Without freewill, love cannot exist. Love calls for an active act to do things. God wants us to love Him by a conscious choice. -
Originally posted by sillyme:Can add in another perspective? It may be an overly simplistic view.
Without freewill, love cannot exist. Love calls for an active act to do things. God wants us to love Him by a conscious choice.
i totally forgot abt this! Thank for bringing it up. In fact, i find this a central argument. It's funny how ppl tend to overlook the simplest things though it might be the most profound -
In the first place, Christianity does not have a good explanation of theodicy.Originally posted by ben1xy:I guess i am skewed in my outlook at this, as predestination seems to put the human freewill to a peripheral role. In that case, many of my old arguments would not hold through, esp. in my understanding of theodicy. I cannot see how it can co-exist with such a doctrine
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i would disagree actually, i find some authors arguments to be compelling.Originally posted by Icemoon:In the first place, Christianity does not have a good explanation of theodicy.
IMO, it hinges on Freewill. And if we deny the ultimate freewill, theologically, it's almost impossible to explain. And theological studies should be taken whole, not bit and pieces. Thus, if there's a problem with theodicy, we should re-examine other bits. I guess what i am trying to say is that it's all intermeshed and when we study it, we must adopt a wholistic approach -
Have you examined the assumptions?Originally posted by ben1xy:i would disagree actually, i find some authors arguments to be compelling.
A dualistic worldview presents many problems. -
yup. i will tackle a God of Love and suffering (not evil- i havent find time to dwell more into evil yet)Originally posted by Icemoon:Have you examined the assumptions?
A dualistic worldview presents many problems.
let me sum the main arguments up very briefly. this is from memory, so i might not cover everything
1. St Thomas's argument: suffering happens due to a lack of goodness
2. bounded rationality of humans. thus, only God can see the big picture
3. the sufferings occurring in the world can be attributed to free will (this itself will be another big talking point)
4. suffering and love is not a dichotomy. Co-existence is possible
5. it's enhancing and disciplinary value and
6. the redemptive quality
While some theologians choose 1 or 2 out of the list. I feel that it requires a more contingent approach. And viewed as a whole, i do not see many aspects of suffering that cannot be explained. -
Normally when one lost faith ~~ means almost
to the end of the road
dun know leh
When one in church or on fire for GOd
things will go very well
When one leave God no more faith or watever
bad things always seems to be striking on that person -
got stats?Originally posted by noahnoah:When one in church or on fire for GOd
things will go very well
When one leave God no more faith or watever
bad things always seems to be striking on that person -
Originally posted by laoda99:
I always suspected that christians fear god and are prone to trembling upon hearing his name. Much like slaves do when their cruel masters call their names
Just a thought......
I tend to believe that there are many ex-christians (or people who were exploring into Christianity) lost faith and in the end write a lot of bad things about the faith, here on sgforums and elsewhere.
I believe that sometimes it really is God's sovereignty that u become a believer / the things u experienced that draws u closer to God. It is all God's work and very little is on what you do. Life is indeed very unpredictable and now I know why [b]we should pray for our salvation trembling and fearing God.
For those who has detached away from God, the only way we can do is to pray for their well-being.
[/b] -
Pls pray for me then..
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You are 1/4 correct.Originally posted by zxc22099:I always suspected that christians fear god and are prone to trembling upon hearing his name. Much like slaves do when their cruel masters call their names
Philippians 2 (NIV)
But it is about salvation and not the name of God. Furthermore, no slave will worship and sing praise and even put aside 10% of their already very low earning to their master.
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. -
What is it we have to fear about salvation? That if we don't, we will go to hell. That's why christians believe in god. They fear going to hellOriginally posted by Icemoon:But it is about salvation and not the name of God. Furthermore, no slave will worship and sing praise and even put aside 10% of their already very low earning to their master. -
No la, not fear about salvation but work it out with fear and trembling.Originally posted by zxc22099:What is it we have to fear about salvation? That if we don't, we will go to hell. That's why christians believe in god. They fear going to hell -
Nobody fears salvation. But explain to me why somebody has to do something with fear. Why must they work out salvation with fear?Originally posted by Icemoon:No la, not fear about salvation but work it out with fear and trembling.