Disgruntled ex-christians who lose faith + some thoughts..
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Just a thought......
I tend to believe that there are many ex-christians (or people who were exploring into Christianity) lost faith and in the end write a lot of bad things about the faith, here on sgforums and elsewhere.
I believe that sometimes it really is God's sovereignty that u become a believer / the things u experienced that draws u closer to God. It is all God's work and very little is on what you do. Life is indeed very unpredictable and now I know why we should pray for our salvation trembling and fearing God.
For those who has detached away from God, the only way we can do is to pray for their well-being. -
Lost faith because of?
There are many reasons why the turnover rates of salvation is high.
And you're referring to which Catergory of sliden christians? -
Haha....I think there is only one reason why they lost faith.Originally posted by M©+square:Lost faith because of?
There are many reasons why the turnover rates of salvation is high.
And you're referring to which Catergory of sliden christians?
Not very sure, just some thoughts of mine becoz I think a lot of people who have turned away from the faith ended up attacking it. Sad.
Worst enemies of Christians may be ex-christians. -
I learn a new word today.Originally posted by M©+square:sliden
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Then i'd let you know that there are many reasons.Originally posted by laoda99:Haha....I think there is only one reason why they lost faith.
Not very sure, just some thoughts of mine becoz I think a lot of people who have turned away from the faith ended up attacking it. Sad.
Otherwise, church Counsellors would have much better time if there's only one reason. -
I believe in TULIP......esp the P part....Originally posted by M©+square:Then i'd let you know that there are many reasons.
Otherwise, church Counsellors would have much better time if there's only one reason.
haha -
I was going to ask that in the first message.Originally posted by laoda99:I believe in TULIP......esp the P part....
haha
But refrained.
The last time we discussed, i remembered there wasn't any strong conclusion. The P is subjective and Calvin actually admits that it brought a bit of unexplainable questions. -
Well, I believe human cooperation has a very very very small part in our faith. That's why I tend to believe it is God's sovereignty that one become a believer and presevere to the end.Originally posted by M©+square:I was going to ask that in the first message.
But refrained.
The last time we discussed, i remembered there wasn't any strong conclusion. The P is subjective and Calvin actually admits that it brought a bit of unexplainable questions. -
Perseverance of the Saints ...Originally posted by laoda99:I believe in TULIP......esp the P part....
haha
hmm, maybe we can discuss this then.
So even if a person rejects his faith and recounces God, under Calvinism, will he be continuely sanctified?
or is there caveat? or certain limit? -
In that case, woud it not bring the JUST repute/quality of God into question?Originally posted by laoda99:Well, I believe human cooperation has a very very very small part in our faith. That's why I tend to believe it is God's sovereignty that one become a believer and presevere to the end. -
-deleted....repeated-
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Nope. Why u say that?Originally posted by ben1xy:In that case, woud it not bring the JUST repute/quality of God into question?
Actually, TULIP goes along very well.
U should read more on reformed theology. -
I think if that person really do that, then he wasn't a believer in the first place.Originally posted by ben1xy:Perseverance of the Saints ...
hmm, maybe we can discuss this then.
So even if a person rejects his faith and recounces God, under Calvinism, will he be continuely sanctified?
or is there caveat? or certain limit?
Preseverence of the saints is only for believers who stand firm till the end. -
Originally posted by laoda99:Nope. Why u say that?
Actually, TULIP goes along very well.
U should read more on reformed theology.
i dun read much on reformed theology
nvm, i go read when i am free then come back and discuss. if not my arguements will be real chapalang -
Ask Icemoon where to get good resourcesOriginally posted by ben1xy:
i dun read much on reformed theology
nvm, i go read when i am free then come back and discuss. if not my arguements will be real chapalang
He is good at this. -
Justice is preserved if the penalty is being paid for (by Christ), is this not also the very basis that the Priest can absolved the sin of the confessor (though penance maybe directed by the priest for the confessor to perform as a 'sign of repentance'? though I am of the opinion that God who search the hearts will not need these to know the heart of the confessor.)Originally posted by ben1xy:In that case, woud it not bring the JUST repute/quality of God into question?
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I think you should know the difference between JUST and FAIR.Originally posted by ben1xy:In that case, woud it not bring the JUST repute/quality of God into question?
God is JUST when He made Jesus Christ paid for your sins.
God never claims to be FAIR in treating everybody equally. -
I am actually looking at this from the eyes of the unbeliever, since this is what the topic points to.Originally posted by vince69:Justice is preserved if the penalty is being paid for (by Christ), is this not also the very basis that the Priest can absolved the sin of the confessor (though penance maybe directed by the priest for the confessor to perform as a 'sign of repentance'? though I am of the opinion that God who search the hearts will not need these to know the heart of the confessor.)
What i am unsure abt in the theological explication of Election, is the presence og the concept of a free will to choose?
you get where i am getting at?
i know i sound vague.. -
yup, I get this part.Originally posted by Icemoon:I think you should know the difference between JUST and FAIR.
God is JUST when He made Jesus Christ paid for your sins.
God never claims to be FAIR in treating everybody equally.
For some weird reason whenever i think abt the conceot of the Elect, i tend to think that it contradicts the concept of Freewill.
Am i mistaken abt this? maybe u can enlighten me. Reformed theology is not something i read up on -
Because in classical Protestant theology, man's free will is to turn away from the gospel.Originally posted by ben1xy:I am actually looking at this from the eyes of the unbeliever, since this is what the topic points to.
What i am unsure abt in the theological explication of Election, is the presence og the concept of a free will to choose?
you get where i am getting at?
i know i sound vague..
So does God respect man's free will more than He wills for man to receive salvation?
I know very cheam. -
i concur with Icemoon.....man's free will is to turn away the gospel....hence the total depravity of man....Originally posted by Icemoon:Because in classical Protestant theology, man's free will is to turn away from the gospel.
So does God respect man's free will more than He wills for man to receive salvation?
I know very cheam. -
Those who are interested in election can read this. Highly recommended. I like the way the author puts forth his argument.
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/election-texts-part-i
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/election-texts-part-ii
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/election-texts-part-iii
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/election-texts-part-iv
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/election-texts-part-V
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/election-texts-part-vi
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/election-texts-part-vii
* recommended for growing Christians like dave -
Interesting.Originally posted by Icemoon:Because in classical Protestant theology, man's free will is to turn away from the gospel.
So does God respect man's free will more than He wills for man to receive salvation?
I know very cheam.
You do realise that if we adopt this view;
1. the idea of theodicy becomes very skewed
2. in Mtthew 23, we have 37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
If Predestination is true, why would Jesus weep? Also note how unwillingness was used; Jesus wanted to accept them, but they were unwilling?
or maybe the classic exmaple that of Paul in 1 Corinth?
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
And there are many verses in the Bible that states that God wants all Man to be saved :
1 Timothy 2:
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
If God wants all to be saved and he forces his Will upon Man, will we not all be saved?
These are just some of the issues i can think abt. I am not attacking the doctrine. Rather, i am sincerely wanting to know how Calvinism deals with these issues? -
see my reply to icemoon. Maybe u can answer some of my questionsOriginally posted by laoda99:i concur with Icemoon.....man's free will is to turn away the gospel....hence the total depravity of man....
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I saw ur reply to icemoon liao.Originally posted by ben1xy:see my reply to icemoon. Maybe u can answer some of my questions
Actually, I can see no contradiction. God of coz, wants everyone to be saved. But, will everyone get saved? Paul explains it quite clearly:
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed
to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brothers. (Rom 8:29)
As for the verses u quote, I cannot really see how it contradicts predestination. On the contrary, I can give u many verses which the bible supports predestination.
We must understand that it is God who draws us close to him so that we believe.
Think we have to read to find out more.