MM Lee talks about homosexuality
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WrongOriginally posted by laoda99:Two bangala holding hands
For them it means close friendship -
go to the christian forum and ask and u will get better answers.hahaOriginally posted by davidche:WHAT EXACTLY IS HOMOSEXUALITY? -
this is the christian forumOriginally posted by hiphop2009:go to the christian forum and ask and u will get better answers. HAHA
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oh no, i didnt see dat! so sorry~!Originally posted by laurence82:this is the christian forum
-_-!!!!!!!!!!
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hmmm....gui hua tea is nice.....Originally posted by hiphop2009:oh no, i didnt see dat! so sorry~! -
the funny thing in all these replies is that it seems that there is conscious effort to ignore scripture.... where there are instances that scripture is quoted, there is a blatant disregard of the context of these passages.Originally posted by laoda99:
A gay writer wrote in response to NCCS statement[/quote]
[quote]Originally posted by mhcampboy:I recently sent them a mail....
Here is their reply..
Hi H****
Many churches preaches that it is NOT ok to be gay as it goes against biblical teachings and against their own moral system....
Hope to see you there tonight!
regards,
Al****
.... the bottom line is: might as well say that it is ok to commit genocide seeing that such practices were prevalent in the Old Testament. -
http://fonsus.livejournal.com/
During the session, I took down some of the main points. Father Renckens shared with us about his personal views on the issue of homosexuality, some of which are not congruent with the current teachings of the Catholic Church.
• He defined homosexuality in his own understanding – that describing the condition as an inclination or a tendency is incorrect, and that it is basically an orientation.
• He went on to talk about the 3 schools of thought – nature (i.e. genetic makeup, ‘born like that’), nurture (i.e. influence from the environment/surroundings, ‘shaped into being’), or a combination of both – on how homosexuality originated. If these schools of thought hold true, then our condition cannot be considered a sin, because we did not choose to be such.
• He also made it clear that the acts which were condemned in the Bible were against the order of nature, because it was the case of heterosexuals engaging in homosexual activity due to the fact that they were deprived of same-gender contact, and not because they had love for the other party (meaning that they were using the other party for fornication to derive self-pleasure).
• ‘Objective disorder’ – the term used to describe the condition now. He talks about the changing views of how the scriptures were interpreted over time, i.e. slavery. In the past when the Bible was written, there was no such thing as psychology, psychiatry or behavioural research; now there is, and therefore with this added knowledge, the Church has changed its views that sexual orientation is not necessarily a matter of choice. Today the Catholic position has become somewhat conflicted: homosexuality is natural and even biological, but still disordered. Father Renckens hopes that in time, the “homosexual orientation will be understood as a ‘variant’ or ‘diversity’ of our human condition.”
• Jesus died on the cross for the world, not only those who were baptized, but also those who do not know him (because Jesus knows us all).
I think it is very refreshing to attend such a workshop. Back in school, I was taught that all sinners go to hell, and that as a gay person, I was destined not to pass the gates of heaven. It was quite a traumatizing experience, one which made me decide to conform to societal demands. The end result was that I was living a lie. That was very difficult and every day seemed to be another test for me. I felt that this workshop was able to allow us to really come together to share our own personal views and opinions, especially through the small group discussions, which I think was very effective in getting everybodyÂ’s input. More of such sessions should be organised as they would help to bring people together who would not usually sit down together and discuss and interact to successfully relate to each other. More so for us from the GLBT community. I truly felt this was a great learning experience for me. Kudos to the organiser =p -
From http://www.sgforums.com/?action=post_display&post_id=6432571Originally posted by Chin Eng:the funny thing in all these replies is that it seems that there is conscious effort to ignore scripture.... where there are instances that scripture is quoted, there is a blatant disregard of the context of these passages.
.... the bottom line is: might as well say that it is ok to commit genocide seeing that such practices were prevalent in the Old Testament.
Interview with ex-methodist bishop Rev Dr Yap Kim Hao
æ: Many Christian gays and lesbians - who after coming out to themselves - decide to stop going to church and/or feel that they cannot continue being a Christian because of churches who preach that homosexuality is unacceptable. Despite the availability of literature which says that the Bible verses which are frequently used to condemn homosexuality have been mistranslated or misinterpreted, they find it hard to let go of what they were taught earlier. How best do you think they can come to terms to this?
Rev Yap: We must first of all try to comprehend how the Bible itself came into existence. Even though we glibly claim that the Bible is the Word of God, we must readily admit that it was not transmitted by God to us in a written form and certainly not in English or any language we know, not even Hebrew or Greek. The writers of the different books of the Bible interpret their experiences as individuals or community with God in their lives. Other interpretations exist but did not get the approval of the Jewish and Christian leaders who compiled the books of the Bible.
Each faithful follower has to make his or own interpretation and which may or may not reflect that of the religious institutions. The teachings of the institutions themselves change according to the changing times. Homosexuality is one issue which is in the process of change and hopefully, the time will come also for more religious leaders to be gay-affirming.
...........................................................................................................
æ: What do you say to Christians who believe that the Bible incontrovertibly condemns homosexuality? How easy or difficult is it for you to make a Christian who believes that homosexuality is disallowed by God to change his or her mind?
Rev Yap: My advice to them is to really study the Bible and see the teachings relating to homosexuality in the context of those olden days. It is extremely difficult to change the mind of the homophobic person. But even though these persons once had no reason to challenge their assumptions, they are now forced by gays who have come out and straight people who are gay-affirming to re-examine their views on the issue of homosexuality.
æ: Why do you think so many people are unwilling to question the idea that the Bible condemns homosexuals?
Rev Yap: This is because it is a majority view and was never challenged to the extent that we do today, and by the people who are brave enough to come out. -
How to define homosexuality?
American heritage dictionary:
Sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
Sexual activity with another of the same sex. -
How would u classify this? Is this possible:Originally posted by davidche:How to define homosexuality?
American heritage dictionary:
Sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
Sexual activity with another of the same sex.
(from above)
He also made it clear that the acts which were condemned in the Bible were against the order of nature, because it was the case of heterosexuals engaging in homosexual activity due to the fact that they were deprived of same-gender contact, and not because they had love for the other party (meaning that they were using the other party for fornication to derive self-pleasure). -
Originally posted by laoda99:
This is a better definition. esp 'they were using the other party for fornication to derive self-pleasure''
[b]How would u classify this? Is this possible:
(from above)
He also made it clear that the acts which were condemned in the Bible were against the order of nature, because it was the case of heterosexuals engaging in homosexual activity due to the fact that they were deprived of same-gender contact, and not because they had love for the other party (meaning that they were using the other party for fornication to derive self-pleasure). [/b]
I see, so if it is authentic love then it is ok? Like very close friends who trust each other, support each other. -
Originally posted by laoda99:
as I'd suspected....Rev Yap, beyond debating on the issue of homosexuality, has gone into the greater issue of whether the Bible is the Word of God or not.... if his view is such that the Bible did not come about as an inspired by God, then there is nothing else to discuss because all the sacred tenets of scripture is no longer sacred.
From http://www.sgforums.com/?action=post_display&post_id=6432571
Interview with ex-methodist bishop Rev Dr Yap Kim HaoRev Yap: We must first of all try to comprehend how the Bible itself came into existence. Even though we glibly claim that the Bible is the Word of God, we must readily admit that it was not transmitted by God to us in a written form and certainly not in English or any language we know, not even Hebrew or Greek. The writers of the different books of the Bible interpret their experiences as individuals or community with God in their lives. Other interpretations exist but did not get the approval of the Jewish and Christian leaders who compiled the books of the Bible.
Each faithful follower has to make his or own interpretation and which may or may not reflect that of the religious institutions. The teachings of the institutions themselves change according to the changing times. Homosexuality is one issue which is in the process of change and hopefully, the time will come also for more religious leaders to be gay-affirming.
therefore is quite safe to conclude the the "Rev" title for Mr Yap is a mere scholastic title, not one the defines him to be a man of God and that any argument that he might present IS NOT ALIGNED to the Word of God. -
I suddenly remember a Jewish sermon I've heard and realize that the pro-homosexuality Christians might have been making flawed arguments.
For simplicity sake, let's restrict the discussion to believers of God.
They say if it is genetical, then it cannot be a sin? This argument is flawed, IMHO.
Because if we believe that the majority of guys are "genetically" attracted to the opposite sex, does it mean it is ok to commit incest? -
Mr Yap was once the big boss of your denomination leh.Originally posted by Chin Eng:therefore is quite safe to conclude the the "Rev" title for Mr Yap is a mere scholastic title, not one the defines him to be a man of God and that any argument that he might present IS NOT ALIGNED to the Word of God. -
Two perverts with the same perversion.Originally posted by davidche:WHAT EXACTLY IS HOMOSEXUALITY?
i.e. one pervert who get his sexual kicks from a person of the same sex, pairs up with another pervert who has the same dyfunctionality.
As both are of the age of consent, and they indulge in private, society is now saying that it is their own business.
These queers are saying that it is in their genetic make up that they are such. However there is no basis for such claims. They are simply dyfunctional together, and they are infiltrating society because of their numbers.
But if we can accept their assertion that it is in their genes, and therefore we should not discriminate against them, then we should also be accomodating to paedophiles, who could also claim that it is in their genes.
Homosexuality should be recognised for what it is, a perversion.
Now how do we deal with this widespread perversion?
Tolerate but not condone.
Just as we tolerate a wanker, but not condone the habit. -
that's so simplistic. -
Originally posted by mancha:
Adding to what above speaker has said. Labeling homosexuality as a genetic perversion is no excuse for engaging in it. Humans have the God given right to the power of choice unlike animals who act on instinct. Thus even tho there may be a tendency to fancy the same sex, you can still excercise your power of choice.
Two perverts with the same perversion.
i.e. one pervert who get his sexual kicks from a person of the same sex, pairs up with another pervert who has the same dyfunctionality.
As both are of the age of consent, and they indulge in private, society is now saying that it is their own business.
These queers are saying that it is in their genetic make up that they are such. However there is no basis for such claims. They are simply dyfunctional together, and they are infiltrating society because of their numbers.
But if we can accept their assertion that it is in their genes, and therefore we should not discriminate against them, then we should also be accomodating to paedophiles, who could also claim that it is in their genes.
Homosexuality should be recognised for what it is, a perversion.
Now how do we deal with this widespread perversion?
Tolerate but not condone.
Just as we tolerate a wanker, but not condone the habit. -
Originally posted by mancha:Two perverts with the same perversion.
i.e. one pervert who get his sexual kicks from a person of the same sex, pairs up with another pervert who has the same dyfunctionality.
As both are of the age of consent, and they indulge in private, society is now saying that it is their own business.
These queers are saying that it is in their genetic make up that they are such. However there is no basis for such claims. They are simply dyfunctional together, and they are infiltrating society because of their numbers.
But if we can accept their assertion that it is in their genes, and therefore we should not discriminate against them, then we should also be accomodating to paedophiles, who could also claim that it is in their genes.
Homosexuality should be recognised for what it is, a perversion.
Now how do we deal with this widespread perversion?
Tolerate but not condone.
Just as we tolerate a wanker, but not condone the habit.
-
Actually I agree with what you say, save for the genetic perversion part.Originally posted by Skibi:Adding to what above speaker has said. Labeling homosexuality as a genetic perversion is no excuse for engaging in it. Humans have the God given right to the power of choice unlike animals who act on instinct. Thus even tho there may be a tendency to fancy the same sex, you can still excercise your power of choice. -
Then that will be just friendship liao rite?Originally posted by davidche:This is a better definition. esp 'they were using the other party for fornication to derive self-pleasure''
I see, so if it is authentic love then it is ok? Like very close friends who trust each other, support each other. -
Hmm....I think what Rev Yap means is....the bible is the product of man having their own personal experiences with God which can be different from time to time...Originally posted by Chin Eng:as I'd suspected....Rev Yap, beyond debating on the issue of homosexuality, has gone into the greater issue of whether the Bible is the Word of God or not.... if his view is such that the Bible did not come about as an inspired by God, then there is nothing else to discuss because all the sacred tenets of scripture is no longer sacred.
therefore is quite safe to conclude the the "Rev" title for Mr Yap is a mere scholastic title, not one the defines him to be a man of God and that any argument that he might present IS NOT ALIGNED to the Word of God.
I wonder besides ex-methodist bishop Yap, any one trained in theology in Singapore has this view or not.... -
U going to talk abt the fall of man from grace again aren't uOriginally posted by Icemoon:They say if it is genetical, then it cannot be a sin? This argument is flawed, IMHO.
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A lot of gay pple will disagree with you lehOriginally posted by Skibi:Adding to what above speaker has said. Labeling homosexuality as a genetic perversion is no excuse for engaging in it. Humans have the God given right to the power of choice unlike animals who act on instinct. Thus even tho there may be a tendency to fancy the same sex, you can still excercise your power of choice. -
Is he still with the methodist or wat.....Originally posted by Icemoon:Mr Yap was once the big boss of your denomination leh. -
depends they practise ex-comm or not.Originally posted by laoda99:Is he still with the methodist or wat.....