Why do you believe in god? Part 2
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I dun visit this forum frequently, since it's closed, I'll continue my comment here.
Of course I'm saying what if in the future it is just proven as plain science?Originally posted by Icemoon:Are you talking about Jesus' miracles?
I dunno there is a science for resurrection and a science for wallking on water.
People used to believe world was flat, and one else saying saying otherwise was deem a moroon.... until it was proven that world was round.
People used to never believe they can fly, until science made it possible.
Consider how will a caveman understand the workings of a simple electrical torchlight?
At our present modern age now, we may still be unable to use science to do resurrection or walking on water. That may only mean current science had not reached that level required, hence these things are considered as miracles.
I vaguely recalled a case about a mother who tilted a car to rescue her baby that was pinned underneath. Scientists deem that as mind-over-body as hence able to exzert so-called "superhuman strength". Miracle? -
Do you wish to discuss what miracle is, or why people believe in God....?
Do you wish to debate or argue over personal opinions on the basis of wanting to know another view? If this view is in conflict with what you believe or understand, what do you intend to do? -
before we start ... lets differentiate between Discovery (it exists along, just that no one notice it or understand it or know about it till its discovered) and Inventions (it does not exist before until someone through the advancement of science and technology invented it or make it possible)Originally posted by sonic_16:I dun visit this forum frequently, since it's closed, I'll continue my comment here.
Of course I'm saying what if in the future it is just proven as plain science?
People used to believe world was flat, and one else saying saying otherwise was deem a moroon.... until it was proven that world was round.
People used to never believe they can fly, until science made it possible.
Consider how will a caveman understand the workings of a simple electrical torchlight?
At our present modern age now, we may still be unable to use science to do resurrection or walking on water. That may only mean current science had not reached that level required, hence these things are considered as miracles.
I vaguely recalled a case about a mother who tilted a car to rescue her baby that was pinned underneath. Scientists deem that as mind-over-body as hence able to exzert so-called "superhuman strength". Miracle?
on the subject of the world being round (well not exactly round, but close enough), it was first thought to be flat caused it based on limited knowledge, and was discovered to be round when more updated information was discovered.
on flying it was not possible till the advancement of science and technology, if someone without the aid of science and technology and still can fly, even now, its still consider a miracle (same goes for walking on water).
** the key is, without the aid of science and technology, otherwise, its not a miracle.
oh .. if I am not wrong, the case about the mother, its something to do with adrenline, more of a natural reflex/instinct than mind-over-body. -
One simple reason on why you should believe in God .... Paschal Wager!
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1. We were in discussion abt "Why do u believe in god?" until that thread was closed. Hence I am giving my comments following up to Icemoon's reply.Originally posted by Chin Eng:1. Do you wish to discuss what miracle is, or why people believe in God....?
2. Do you wish to debate or argue over personal opinions on the basis of wanting to know another view?
3. If this view is in conflict with what you believe or understand, what do you intend to do?
2. Of course, what's the point of discussion NOT on the basis of wanting to understanding others' view?
I wun know whether I should buy that chicken rice, or buy something else, or recommend others about the chicken rice, or tell others what's smelly about the chicken rice, until after I had tasted it. Hence to answer your third question, I wun know what I intend to do about it until I have some information. -
u still having easter fever ah?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:One simple reason on why you should believe in God .... Paschal Wager!
shd be Pascal right? -
But then no matter how much people tell you how good the chicken rice is, you won't know until you taste it right?Originally posted by sonic_16:1. We were in discussion abt "Why do u believe in god?" until that thread was closed. Hence I am giving my comments following up to Icemoon's reply.
2. Of course, what's the point of discussion NOT on the basis of wanting to understanding others' view?
I wun know whether I should buy that chicken rice, or buy something else, or recommend others about the chicken rice, or tell others what's smelly about the chicken rice, until after I had tasted it. Hence to answer your third question, I wun know what I intend to do about it until I have some information.
I don't think I can ever prove God exists. I think God is out of this worldly realm. But I can experience His presence in my life. I know that as I submit in faith, I can see Him changing my life and how I treat people around me. -
I'm just saying our level of science or understanding of the human body may not be at a level that it is able to prove these miracles.Originally posted by vince69:before we start ... lets differentiate between Discovery (it exists along, just that no one notice it or understand it or know about it till its discovered) and Inventions (it does not exist before until someone through the advancement of science and technology invented it or make it possible)
on the subject of the world being round (well not exactly round, but close enough), it was first thought to be flat caused it based on limited knowledge, and was discovered to be round when more updated information was discovered.
on flying it was not possible till the advancement of science and technology, if someone without the aid of science and technology and still can fly, even now, its still consider a miracle (same goes for walking on water).
** the key is, without the aid of science and technology, otherwise, its not a miracle.
oh .. if I am not wrong, the case about the mother, its something to do with adrenline, more of a natural reflex/instinct than mind-over-body.
For decades, no human being is able to run a mile in under 4 minutes. It was considered not merely unreachable but, according to physiologists of that time, dangerous to the health of any athlete who attempted to reach it. It is consider a miracle for anyone who is able to do that.
Roger Bannister did it in 1950s. Within months several more runners broke the 4 minute mile barrier, causing physiologists to re-think, revise their understanding of the science of the human body.
Hence before Bannister did it people say "cannot be done one unless miracle". After he done it people say "ya ya, it's possible, just within human limits, just need training".
How would we know the "miracles" today will not be a "within human limits" in future? -
Yup. I wun know. That's why I'm here asking. But if in the first place I can't be convinced even by the people eating the chicken rice and telling me how good it is, then I wun be tasting it.Originally posted by sillyme:But then no matter how much people tell you how good the chicken rice is, you won't know until you taste it right?
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My birth cert says I'm buddist, like my whole family. After researching, I found my family more taoist then buddism. My 1 friend frm city harvest, says it's a religion to go into. Another friend of mine frm a (according to him) more traditional church second the same thing but say not to join city harvest as they dun teach the real thing. And I haven't even go into another thing by another friend about some teachings on eternal happiness....(whom i suspect is a occult, or maybe he just sprouting rubbish) -
I assume you have a fair share of experiencing what Taoism and Buddhism is about. How do you feel about it?Originally posted by sonic_16:Yup. I wun know. That's why I'm here asking. But if in the first place I can't be convinced even by the people eating the chicken rice and telling me how good it is, then I wun be tasting it.
My birth cert says I'm buddist, like my whole family. After researching, I found my family more taoist then buddism. My 1 friend frm city harvest, says it's a religion to go into. Another friend of mine frm a (according to him) more traditional church second the same thing but say not to join city harvest as they dun teach the real thing. And I haven't even go into another thing by another friend about some teachings on eternal happiness....(whom i suspect is a occult, or maybe he just sprouting rubbish)
I think the best way to find out about Christianity or any religion is to go to their place of worship and hear and see what they are about. It is true there are differences between churches and some christians think their own church practises the "truth". I say, you look and observe if they make sense to you.
The bishop who spoke at my church today quoted an example. He recounted that 46 years ago he proposed to his wife. His then girlfriend asked him if he will love her twenty years down the road. He said he answered truthfully that he doesn't know. But by faith they got married and stayed married. It is with all relationships, you place yourself in a certain position of risk. But you learn to trust the other person and also honour the trust the other person placed in you.
I don't think one can fully convince you that Christianity is the truth that you need. Some people believed and stayed one their whole life. Some believed and then chose to walk away after some period of time.
I guess miracles do help to give hope to people. The bible records many miracles Jesus performed. But His purpose here was not to be the rainmaker. The miracles he performed served to demonstrate His authority, His divinity.
Look at Christianity not for miracles, but for a new life in God. It is about restoring a broken relationship with Him. It is about living a renewed, rejeuevenated life in God. -
As long as discussion is cordial, with the understanding of agreeing to disagree, we'd be alright here. Strong languages bordering on accusation and judgement should be avoided.Originally posted by sonic_16:1. We were in discussion abt "Why do u believe in god?" until that thread was closed. Hence I am giving my comments following up to Icemoon's reply.
2. Of course, what's the point of discussion NOT on the basis of wanting to understanding others' view?
I wun know whether I should buy that chicken rice, or buy something else, or recommend others about the chicken rice, or tell others what's smelly about the chicken rice, until after I had tasted it. Hence to answer your third question, I wun know what I intend to do about it until I have some information.
You example: the crux of the matter is: you need to taste it. Regardless of how good or bad the reviewers are, you need to taste for a personal conclusion.
I find this true when I read movie reviews.... sometimes reviewers give good reviews and I find a show to be crap, or reviewers give bad reviews and I love the show....
To me, religion (and any religion) is a personal thing. If it works for you, fine, go on. Otherwise, move on.
Believers (any religion) are very human too, with very human failings. You'd only get a sampling, at best, of any religion when you look on the human side. -
Can tell me who is on which side?
Because as far as i can tell, sonic is a christian or a theist right? -
on the 4min mile, pls note that before that the physiolgists were only based on unproven theory, ie; there wasn't a subject or person to observe or measure on to prove their theory. Hence, when Roger Bannister comes along, and show it can be done, their theory collasped.Originally posted by sonic_16:I'm just saying our level of science or understanding of the human body may not be at a level that it is able to prove these miracles.
For decades, no human being is able to run a mile in under 4 minutes. It was considered not merely unreachable but, according to physiologists of that time, dangerous to the health of any athlete who attempted to reach it. It is consider a miracle for anyone who is able to do that.
Roger Bannister did it in 1950s. Within months several more runners broke the 4 minute mile barrier, causing physiologists to re-think, revise their understanding of the science of the human body.
Hence before Bannister did it people say "cannot be done one unless miracle". After he done it people say "ya ya, it's possible, just within human limits, just need training".
How would we know the "miracles" today will not be a "within human limits" in future?
yes, maybe in future, man can walk on water, or even grow wings to fly, but as of this moment, based on current science and technology and mathematics, these are not possible.
but then, this is not why you believe in God, not just about miracles or wonders, for us, its about a relationship with a living God. -
sometimes, when i go through ur thread (also in the buddist thread) i realised i spent more time in finding out what the words mean....especially when you see explanations like thisOriginally posted by davidche:Can tell me who is on which side?
Because as far as i can tell, sonic is a christian or a theist right?
"theist
A theist is someone who denies that God doesn't exist; an atheism denier. ©copyright 2005 Robert Todd Carroll. larrow.gif (1051 bytes) theism ...
skepdic.com/theist.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages"
Can't they just say god exist? haiz... -
i'm on nobody's side, neither am i sitting on the fence.Originally posted by davidche:Can tell me who is on which side?
Because as far as i can tell, sonic is a christian or a theist right?
i'm on my own side.
*bangs table, ah bengs from other tables all stand up and xiong at davidche...*
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Why not you try opening your heart to Him then He will answer your questions? You do know its not really possible for us, mere humans, to answer the questions of belief, science and miracle.Originally posted by sonic_16:I dun visit this forum frequently, since it's closed, I'll continue my comment here.
Of course I'm saying what if in the future it is just proven as plain science?
People used to believe world was flat, and one else saying saying otherwise was deem a moroon.... until it was proven that world was round.
People used to never believe they can fly, until science made it possible.
Consider how will a caveman understand the workings of a simple electrical torchlight?
At our present modern age now, we may still be unable to use science to do resurrection or walking on water. That may only mean current science had not reached that level required, hence these things are considered as miracles.
I vaguely recalled a case about a mother who tilted a car to rescue her baby that was pinned underneath. Scientists deem that as mind-over-body as hence able to exzert so-called "superhuman strength". Miracle?
Ask God Himself. -
It just faith...
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Lets all be positive and believe in God until proven otherwise.
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I am sure you can't explain why ther bible mention that human are make form soil.. scientist did conduct a research and found that the mineral from the soil are similar to those contain in the human body...
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taoist (i tink) also have something like that. human made from soil long long time ago in a far far away place by a gal call something i can't recall... I know according to the story the guy is pangu, who made the world...Originally posted by soulwinner:I am sure you can't explain why ther bible mention that human are make form soil.. scientist did conduct a research and found that the mineral from the soil are similar to those contain in the human body... -
The gal is Nuwa issit?Originally posted by sonic_16:taoist (i tink) also have something like that. human made from soil long long time ago in a far far away place by a gal call something i can't recall... I know according to the story the guy is pangu, who made the world...
The story is that Pangu created the world and Nuwa married his brother Fuxi. -
frame it in academic terms pls.Originally posted by Skibi:Lets all be positive and believe in God until proven otherwise.
according to Platinga, belief in God is a properly basic belief. -
first clarification: i have never gone to buddist forum.Originally posted by sonic_16:sometimes, when i go through ur thread (also in the buddist thread) i realised i spent more time in finding out what the words mean....especially when you see explanations like this
"theist
A theist is someone who denies that God doesn't exist; an atheism denier. ©copyright 2005 Robert Todd Carroll. larrow.gif (1051 bytes) theism ...
skepdic.com/theist.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages"
Can't they just say god exist? haiz...
Second clarification: Theist is a person who believes in god. -
You can never prove that there is no God.Originally posted by Skibi:Lets all be positive and believe in God until proven otherwise.
You cant possibly prove a non-existant to be non-existant if it is non-existant.
Confused? Good! -
If there is a God, and if I refuse to believe in Him, it still would not reduce God's magnificence one bit. If there is no God, believing in such a Being is a worthless endeavor. Both posture seems very inconsequential.
Now if there really is a God, what can I bring to Him that is not already His?
He is all, all is His. So why do I believe in God? Simplifying it, its a search/pleading for mercy. Other than that, I will not affirm I'm a believer because I may just be hypocritical in some ways, but I won't accept that I'm a heretic either. 