Too Many Teachings On Love
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Its great to know the love that Jesus has for us, but also remember He also judges as well....
Ok laa maybe its just me, but it seems that many churches now only teaches the love of God and not much on his wrath.
Agree? -
because where Love is, God is..
teach love.. for the world is sorely in need of it.. -
Liberal Catholic priest have been teaching such a view recently. They misintepretate Vatican 2 Council documents to thier demise.
Jesus will JUDGE and his wrath will be on those who sin.
God loves us....but he is a JUST god as well. -
if you are already a believer .. you scare his wrath for what?Originally posted by mhcampboy:Ok laa maybe its just me, but it seems that many churches now only teaches the love of God and not much on his wrath.
Agree? -
Because if u sin and dont do good deeds....u be worst off.Originally posted by Icemoon:if you are already a believer .. you scare his wrath for what?
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so the question is .. how much good deeds is enough?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Because if u sin and dont do good deeds....u be worst off. -
When asked to name the most important commandment, Jesus replied that the most important is to love God. And the second most important is to love others.
Probably there are a numerous teachings on love, on how God loves us. It is important to know that His love is immeasurable. I think it's ok to teach that. That danger lies in that we just stop at that and do nothing about it. We forget to mention that this love that God gives freely needs a response from us. It is critical to know that we need to love Him back so that we can be transformed by His love. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:so the question is .. how much good deeds is enough?
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' - Mat 25
The quality or what exactly those deeds are self explnatory.
In terms of quantity, i have no idea. Scripture doesnt say exactly, though as long as it is enough to save you by the fire according to St Paul Corinthians. -
You do know that our good deeds and works, no matter how great and vast, will never to be good enough to save us? and you may have misquoted St Paul, what he did says is that the reward will be forfeited, but the person will still be saved.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:The quality or what exactly those deeds are self explnatory.
In terms of quantity, i have no idea. Scripture doesnt say exactly, though as long as it is enough to save you by the fire according to St Paul Corinthians.
Nothing short of the scarifice of Christ can save us, and He is so perfect, in such that there is nothing we can do to add to nor substract from Him either.
Why teach on love? Its because its in knowing about His love for us, that we can love others (can one who thinks he is condemned show love?)
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There are many passages in Scripture where Jesus and the sacred writers teach that works are required for salvation.
For example, in the parable of the talents, Jesus teaches that those who increased their talents with good works were saved. Those who buried their talents by not doing good works were condemned (Matt 25:14-30).
When Jesus comes at the end of the world, He grants salvation based upon what we have actually done, not how much faith we had (Matt 25:31-46; 16:27). Jesus determines our eternal destiny based upon what we have done with our lives.
In Rev 2:5, Jesus warns the faithful to do the good works they did at first, otherwise he will remove their place in heaven. This proves that good works are necessary for salvation. Our deeds follow us, and determine our eternal destiny (Rev 14:13; 20:12; 22:12). That is why Jesus says "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt 10:22).
Furthermore Paul also explains this in 1 Cor 3:15 where he describes how a person must pass through fire based on the works he performed during his life. If the works are bad enough, the person is condemned.
Hence we can clearly see that works do play a vital role in securing salvation. Nowhere in Scripture does it say Faith alone except in James which condemns the protestant proposition. -
Naturally. But we have to work towards attaining salvation by particpating in his sacrifice. We have to WORK towards our faith and its not a simple believers creed.Originally posted by vince69:Nothing short of the scarifice of Christ can save us, and He is so perfect, in such that there is nothing we can do to add to nor substract from Him either.
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Hitler had faith and even established a national church. Is he saved?
Sola Fide - Yes as he did possese faith.
CC - No as he did not merit salvation due to his bad deeds. -
This is a poor understanding of the classical Protestant position. I don't blame you, because Protestants and Catholics have different definition of 'faith' and 'works'. This is why they quarrel over that passage in the Book of James.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Naturally. But we have to work towards attaining salvation by particpating in his sacrifice. We have to WORK towards our faith and its not a simple believers creed.
Hitler had faith and even established a national church. Is he saved?
Sola Fide - Yes as he did possese faith.
CC - No as he did not merit salvation due to his bad deeds.
Let's go back to the Protestant position. No, you don't work towards your faith. You can't! Because salvation is something man cannot boast.
Furthermore in classical Protestant theology, salvation is a process - justification, sanctification and glorification. Is Hitler saved? Well, do you think he is in any way sanctified?
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Hitler was baptised and accepted Christ as his savior. ( He was Catholic)Originally posted by Icemoon:This is a poor understanding of the classical Protestant position. I don't blame you, because Protestants and Catholics have different definition of 'faith' and 'works'. This is why they quarrel over that passage in the Book of James.
Let's go back to the Protestant position. No, you don't work towards your faith. You can't! Because salvation is something man cannot boast.
Furthermore in classical Protestant theology, salvation is a process - justification, sanctification and glorification. Is Hitler saved? Well, do you think he is in any way sanctified?
Can his sins take away his salvation? If it can, work hence do play a role in salvation. -
Icemoon, this is a common mistake. Paul says we are not saved by works in Eph 2:8-9, but James says we ARE saved by works in James 2:24. How do we reconclie the two? They appear to be entirely inconsistnet. Here is the answer:Originally posted by Icemoon:Let's go back to the Protestant position. No, you don't work towards your faith. You can't! Because salvation is something man cannot boast.
Paul is speaking about works done in a system of law, where we view God as owing us salvation for our works. These types of works can only condemn us. The CC dogmatically affirmed this teaching at the Council of Trent. When Paul speaks of "works," he is primarily referring to works of the Mosaic law. This is why Paul usually calls them "works of law."
However, James is talking about works done in a sytsem of grace, where we approach God with faith, as a Father, not an employer. When we approach God in faith knowing that He doesn't owe us anythin but will reward us because of His gooodness, He views us with grace and rewards us for our faith and works. These do not refer to "works of law," but works of love. This is the key paradigm of the biblical teaching on justifciation.
When we are under law, neither our faith nor our works can please God. When we are in grace, both our faith and works please God. I hope this helps hasha. -
There can never be enough about teachings of love. Above that. Display of love far surpasses any verbal teachings and verse quoting.
But there is a need to balance the goodness and grace of God shown in His character as a whole. -
let me just add this part.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Naturally. But we have to work towards attaining salvation by particpating in his sacrifice. We have to WORK towards our faith and its not a simple believers creed.
Hitler had faith and even established a national church. Is he saved?
Sola Fide - Yes as he did possese faith.
CC - No as he did not merit salvation due to his bad deeds.
Sola Fide - Faith alone
Justification (that is, becoming right before God) comes through faith only, not good works, though in the classical protestant scheme, saving faith will always be accompanied by good works.
This doctrine can be summarized with the formula "Faith yields justification and good works"
The faith that was mentioned here is a Faith in Christ Jesus that yields both Justification and Good works.
Allow me to repeat myself once again here, it is in my opinion, that without faith, no one can please God. without being first justisfied through faith in Christ Jesus which is given by grace, no one can approach God.
Hence, its first Justifcation by Faith in Christ Jesus, then through this, we approach God, to receive the grace to do the good works that is acceptable by God.
summarized with the formula "Faith yields justification and good works"
Justification by Faith and Good works by Faith. -
If non believer did good and live a just and honorable life,in the eyes of the Christians,he is still condemn to hell when he dies......this is the sentence that I dont believe at all should GOD really have compassion.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Because if u sin and dont do good deeds....u be worst off. -
Baptised big fark?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Hitler was baptised and accepted Christ as his savior. ( He was Catholic)
Can his sins take away his salvation? If it can, work hence do play a role in salvation.
Christ said that many will call his name but he will tell them to fark off.
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No one holds that view.Originally posted by Hamiltonian1125:If non believer did good and live a just and honorable life,in the eyes of the Christians,he is still condemn to hell when he dies......this is the sentence that I dont believe at all should GOD really have compassion.
While salvation exist only in the Catholic Church, those who do not know the Gospel nor his Church being necessary for salvation, can still be saved. -
Both positions are very similiar...its the chicken adn the egg fallacy.
Prot: Works are merely the products of Faith
CC: Works justify Faith.
Similiarities: NO work = no faith = no salvation.
Correct me if I am wrong.
As a result, the Lutherans and the Catholics have resolved thier differences over the Doctrine of Justification.
JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
Not too sure whether this has been affirmed by the Magisteruim or accepted by Protestants. -
You are the one mistaken.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Icemoon, this is a common mistake. Paul says we are not saved by works in Eph 2:8-9, but James says we ARE saved by works in James 2:24. How do we reconclie the two? They appear to be entirely inconsistnet. Here is the answer:
Catholic theology lumps everything under one umbrella, so everything becomes very confusing.
Let me ask you .. what is the Ordo Salutis in Catholic theology? -
OT a bit .. actually I don't remember the Bible describing God as compassionate. God is merciful, but Him having compassion?Originally posted by Hamiltonian1125:If non believer did good and live a just and honorable life,in the eyes of the Christians,he is still condemn to hell when he dies......this is the sentence that I dont believe at all should GOD really have compassion.
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I believed your frustration comes from the teaching that says 'Man is born pure and without blemish', if this is true, then what you say is logically correct and that God cannot condemn a person on his unbelieved.Originally posted by Hamiltonian1125:If non believer did good and live a just and honorable life,in the eyes of the Christians,he is still condemn to hell when he dies......this is the sentence that I dont believe at all should GOD really have compassion.
But from a Christian point of view, the teaching is 'Man is born with the blemishes of sin', hence its not God condeming a person on his unbelieved, but rather its God saving man through his believing in the Son of God.
cheers -
There is no chicken or egg in classical Protestant theology.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Both positions are very similiar...its the chicken adn the egg fallacy.
The Ordo Salutis is very clear which one comes first. -
In fact, God should have respected human freedom and let mankind sin themselves to hell.Originally posted by vince69:But from a Christian point of view, the teaching is 'Man is born with the blemishes of sin', hence its not God condeming a person on his unbelieved, but rather its God saving man through his believing in the Son of God.
cheers