How is Catholic grace different from Protestant grace?
-
My question - do Catholics affirm sola gratia?
-
what is your understanding of this term 'sola gratia'?Originally posted by Icemoon:My question - do Catholics affirm sola gratia?
-
grace only?Originally posted by vince69:what is your understanding of this term 'sola gratia'? -
No.Originally posted by Icemoon:My question - do Catholics affirm sola gratia? -
Actual grace is any intervention by God when He deems it necessary. You are correct to say that He will give us enough to get by each time we need it.Originally posted by vince69:hmm.... God takes it away? sorry, cannot reconcil this idea that susgest that God is petty, I am more towards the idea that God gave us enough grace (living grace) to get through the situation we are in (ie. specific grace for specific situation). Like the daily provision of Mana when the children of Israel were in the wilderness, its provided fresh on a daily basis.
If He takes one form away, He may give us another. He takes freely and gives freely. If we need it, He will give it to us. The Lord knows what is best. The onus then, is on us to cooperate with Him. -
OT a little 'cos your reply reminds me of something.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:If He takes one form away, He may give us another. He takes freely and gives freely. If we need it, He will give it to us. The Lord knows what is best. The onus then, is on us to cooperate with Him.
Catholics believe in synergism right?
-
define synergism.Originally posted by Icemoon:OT a little 'cos your reply reminds me of something.
Catholics believe in synergism right? -
Here is a quote from the Council of Orange (attacking synergism, I suppose):Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:define synergism.If anyone makes the assistance of grace [to believe the gospel] depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).[/quote]
On the definition,
[quote]Synergism is the doctrine that the act of being born again is achieved through a combination of human will and divine grace. (From Greek sunergos, working together : sun-, syn- + ergon, work). The Century Dictionary defines synergism as"...the doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives." -
SingaporeMacross, so I guess Pelagius held the more extreme version of synergism.
-
I think Catholic belief is somewhere between Pelagianism and Synergism defined previously. We recognise that grace is needed. Indeed, supernatural acts can only be achieved with God's help. But there is still a need for the person to perform the act.This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives."[/quote]
However, the last paragraph from the canons of the council of orange begins like this.
"According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul."
[quote]Originally posted by Icemoon:SingaporeMacross, so I guess Pelagius held the more extreme version of synergism. -
I hope it is not semi-Pelagianism.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:I think Catholic belief is somewhere between Pelagianism and Synergism defined previously. We recognise that grace is needed. Indeed, supernatural acts can only be achieved with God's help. But there is still a need for the person to perform the act. -
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13703a.htmAs is clear from the tenor of this writing, Vitalis was of the opinion that the beginning of faith springs from the free will of nature, and that the essence of "prevenient grace" consists in the preaching of the Christian doctrine of salvation. On the basis of such faith man, as Vitalis held, attains justification before God. This view was entirely "Semipelagian". To controvert it, Augustine pointed out that the grace preceding faith must be an interior enlightenment and strengthening, and that the preaching of the Word of God could not, unassisted, accomplish this; consequently the implanting of grace in the soul by God is necessary as a preliminary condition for the production of real faith, since otherwise the customary prayer of the Church for the grace of conversion for unbelievers would be superfluous. Augustine also introduces his view of an absolute predestination of the elect, without however especially emphasizing it, by remarking: "Cum tam multi salvi non fiant, non quia ipsi, sed quia Deus non vult" (Since so many are not saved, not because they themselves do not will it, but because God does not will it).
Ok .. I learn something new today.
Augustine taught that grace precede faith. No use preaching the gospel unless God implants grace in the soul.
Augustine taught predestination!! -
I hope to synthesis the Catholic and Protestant position.
Catholic - grace precedes faith.
Classical Protestant - regeneration precedes faith.
Hmm .. it is safe to conclude both are the work of the Holy Spirit.
So the conclusion is the Holy Spirit regenerates through grace? -
Holy cow!
There is actually a covenant of grace in classical protestant theology!!
Looks like the protestant position is not so shallow after all ..The covenant of grace is that by which God's elect are attributed Christ's satisfaction by faith. An understanding of the covenant is central to understanding the history of redemption.
"This covenant being transacted betwixt Christ and God, here, here lies the first and most firm foundation of a Christian's comfort." - John Ball (1585-1640).
In the covenant of works there was no mediator: in that of grace, there is the mediator, Christ Jesus....In the covenant of works, the condition of perfect obedience was required, to be performed by man himself, who had consented to it. In that of grace, the same condition is proposed, as to be, or as already performed by a mediator. And this substitution of the person, consists the principal and essential difference of the covenants. - Herman Witsius (1636-1708 ) -
Nah that was condemned also.Originally posted by Icemoon:I hope it is not semi-Pelagianism. -
But Augustine, arguably, was more aligned with Calvinistic beliefs than orthodox Catholic beliefs. From his standpoint, it would be a heresy no doubt.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Nah that was condemned also.
However many today in evangelical circle believe in synergism. I'm not surprised Catholics have fallen prey to the semi-pelagian heresy as well. -
Yet Augustine also maintains firmly that it is God's will to save all men. God does not destroy human liberty and free choice, but preserves it, so that the elect would, potentially, have the full power to be damned and the non-elect full power to be saved.
According to Augustine, God, in his creative decree, has expressly excluded every order of things in which grace would deprive man of his liberty, every situation in which man would not have the power to resist sin, and thus Augustine brushes aside that predestinationism which has been attributed to him. Listen to him speaking to the Manichæans: "All can be saved if they wish"; and in his "Retractations" (I, x), far from correcting this assertion, he confirms it emphatically: "It is true, entirely true, that all men can, if they wish." But he always goes back to the providential preparation. In his sermons he says to all: "It depends on you to be elect" (In Ps. cxx, n. 11, etc.); "Who are the elect? You, if you wish it" (In Ps. Lxxiii, n. 5). But, you will say, according to Augustine, the lists of the elect and reprobate are closed. Now if the non-elect can gain heaven, if all the elect can be lost, why should not some pass from one list to the other? You forget the celebrated explanation of Augustine: When God made His plan, He knew infallibly, before His choice, what would be the response of the wills of men to His graces. If, then, the lists are definitive, if no one will pass from one series to the other, it is not because anyone cannot (on the contrary, all can), it is because God knew with infallible knowledge that no one would wish to. Thus I cannot effect that God should destine me to another series of graces than that which He has fixed, but, with this grace, if I do not save myself it will not be because I am not able, but because I do not wish to. [11]
Augustine's theory of predestination was misunderstood by both the Semipelagianists and John Calvin as teaching double predestination, ie. that God had already explicitly decided who would be saved and who would be damned and predestined them to this fate, in a way that does not leave room for free will, personal choice and cooperation with Grace.
Against the Pelagians Augustine also strongly stressed the importance of infant baptism. He believed that no one would be saved unless they have received baptism in order to be cleansed from Original Sin. He also maintained that unbaptized children were going to Hell, but this view was rejected by the Roman Catholic Church
Wikipedia -
It's not as straightforward as that. He believes in both predestination and free will, based on the arguments in his work On grace and free will. He explains that the 2 things are 2 sides of the same coin.Originally posted by Icemoon:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13703a.htm
Ok .. I learn something new today.
Augustine taught that grace precede faith. No use preaching the gospel unless God implants grace in the soul.
Augustine taught predestination!!
I must say that I still have a hard time understanding his ideas, but I try to fight of the all-too-common tendency of only seeing 1 side of an apparent paradox.
regards,
ob -
Actually predestination and free will do go hand in hand. This idea is quite easy to understand if we take into account Calvin's total depravity and unconditional election.Originally posted by ObiterDicta:It's not as straightforward as that. He believes in both predestination and free will, based on the arguments in his work On grace and free will. He explains that the 2 things are 2 sides of the same coin.
I must say that I still have a hard time understanding his ideas, but I try to fight of the all-too-common tendency of only seeing 1 side of an apparent paradox.
regards,
ob -
On the other hand, I believe that the grace of your God is damnation.
But then again, I am an atheist and irreligionist.